19-10-2002 09:25									#151
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Democracy, heh ideals of the oblarchy, we the people watch with open hands, open minds and anticipation of it's reality.

	19-10-2002 09:35									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I am too arrogant to change my mind.

I really dont know why anyone even listens after a comment like this.

	19-10-2002 10:00									#153
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May I just make a comment? One does not have to overthrow the US government to live a socialist life inside the United States. A group of socialists could settle in one place within the borders of the United States or some other and set up their own rules of governance.

Examples of this phenomenon are the Israel Kibbutz, the Amish and Catholic monasteries.

So, I suggest to those who do not like capitalism, simply form a socialist island and live there. Don’t try to take capitalism or whatever we have in the US away from the rest of us who like it the way it is.

Live and let live.

	19-10-2002 10:06									#154
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega It's only eight hours a day and you don't have to. You can open a hotdog stand. You can open a janitorial service, floor waxing business, junk removal business, land scaping, air duct cleaning, newspaper stand, sell Amway, Avon or Mary Kay, carpet cleaning........

But first you have to purchase your necessary permits, get all your inspections, etc...

From what I hear, you can just take care of that with a campaign contribution to your local county comissioner.

	19-10-2002 10:09									#155
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega But the Democrats or Republicans certainly are not going to ever wake up and really try to stop corporate influence.

The way to end coporate influence on the government is to take the government out of economics.

	19-10-2002 10:12									#156
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I think we should take the money out of economics.

	19-10-2002 10:16									#157
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As for the other comments, we have this really fascinating field of study known as ... archeology. Y'all should check it out some time, you learn interesting things like how people didn't always live like you do.

I was just joking about the 2 million thing. And while I understand the wealth of learning to be gained from archeology, I don't think it can/has been shown that prehistoric humans were universally ungreedy.

Perhaps the reason humans didn't hoard was because it didn't tend to work well with nomadic lifestyles... which means they may have been, uh oh, acting to their own benefit.

	19-10-2002 10:20									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think we should take the money out of economics.

That premise is so faulty... where do I begin?

Money is a measure of worth. Money doesn't have worth unless we give it worth. Money is just an evolution of bartering in that it transfers worth to a standard that can be used to measure worth more efficiently than when every object must be compared to every other object to conduct business. You can't take money out of economics unless you take worth out of economics. See if that works for two seconds.

	19-10-2002 10:26									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The failings of socialism have been pointed out quite enough on this thread already. It just won't work in it's pure form with the mentality of the average human.

Ah the age old argument that humans aren't good enough for this perfect philsophy. Give it up already. It isn't perfect unless it works. A philosophy that doesn't work in real life isn't good, get it? Doesn't work = Bad

	19-10-2002 10:29									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Sorry, but I don't know too many millionare hotdog stand operators. Perhaps you can point them out.

If you don't know anyone who started with nothing and became very succesful, then I feel sorry for you, but there's really nothing anyone can do about that.

	19-10-2002 10:32									#161
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor That premise is so faulty... where do I begin? Money is a measure of worth. Money doesn't have worth unless we give it worth. Money is just an evolution of bartering in that it transfers worth to a standard that can be used to measure worth more efficiently than when every object must be compared to every other object to conduct business. You can't take money out of economics unless you take worth out of economics. See if that works for two seconds.

I cant believe you took that comment seriously.

	19-10-2002 10:37									#162
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My mistake. I've seen too many stupid posts to assume that almost anything is sarcasm.

	19-10-2002 10:55									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ The main problem is the world is still fragmented, with minority parties / groups greed spoiling the vast majority of the planet.. this can be solved by having a unified world government, with national governments subserviant to this, but power still shared. This would end most millitary conflict and terrorsism, with every earth citizen equal and treated with equal rights. Hunger would be abolished as the starving would be part of the world nation and the rich west would be obliged to feed them. The first step is to strictly regulate trade and companies, perhaps under a global Industry regulation authority. See you in paradise

Great idea! Bread and Circus for the poor proletariat of the world!

	19-10-2002 12:49									#164
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I agree with you Sava. But we live in an evil world, and what would be better?

Technocracy most likely.

	19-10-2002 13:06									#165
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Capitalism is superior to other forms of economic systems in my humble and uneducated opinion. But in a capitalist society money is power and power corrupts absolutely. There needs to be a way to curb the power of money, especially corporate profits. Essentially corporate money controls the election of Congress and gains too much influence leading to conditions that favor corporations. Corporations become controlled not be a diverse group of shareholders but a select few who have no long term interest in building solid companies that will be solid earners for long periods of time. Instead, they look to create the illusion of "earnings growth" through mergers and accounting tricks for the purpose of running up the stock prices and then the select cash out with riches untold. Leaving the people who depend on the corporation to suffer the fall to reality.

	19-10-2002 22:34									#166
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I STILL find it curious that, even though Sava posted an emotional appeal to morality and right and wrong in his title, he still hasn't come out to debate the morality of his ideas.

In fact, it seems the only person who's even touched on the morality issue is Ramo, and his points have been well refuted as far as I can see.

Could it be that capitalism is, in fact, NOT "morally wrong and evil", and as such he won't attempt to seriously argue that it is? Personally, I'm going with that explanation.

	19-10-2002 22:51									#167
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quote: Originally Posted by Ned: So, I suggest to those who do not like capitalism, simply form a socialist island and live there. Don’t try to take capitalism or whatever we have in the US away from the rest of us who like it the way it is.

You always have intelligent things to say. I would love to see people in a communist government try to set up a capitalist "island".

	19-10-2002 23:24									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Don't underestimate me Asher. My family came to this country from war torn Europe with nothing and has built a moderately high degree of economic standing. Each generation has been more successful than the previous one. My grandfather built a successful business, and at 82, still works 6 full days a week. My mother is a VP for a clinical laboratory company that employs 40k. I am currently on my way to finishing a 4 year degree in computers. I'm 5 years, I'll have my own company. I plan on getting an MBA and going to law school.

So your family started with nothing in the U.S., and under our terrible capitalistic society, became succesful.

	19-10-2002 23:50									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Sheik You always have intelligent things to say. I would love to see people in a communist government try to set up a capitalist "island".

You would be amazed, but NK is trying to set one up in the North on its border with China. As well, China seem to have area, such as Hong Kong, where it permits capitalism.

	19-10-2002 23:58									#170
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Sava, While there are numerous example in history and even today where people voluntarily live on socialist environments, I have mentioned several, there is a problem with many socialist countries where socialism is "imposed" against the will of the people - i.e., not voted in. They often find that many simply do not want to live in the new paradise. The common practice for these socialist countries is to mine their borders and shoot the capitalist pigs in the back as they try to flee.

This is hardly moral.

Sava, European countries are far more socialist than the US. Why don't you consider moving to one?

	20-10-2002 00:01									#171
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Hey! You can keep all the commies bred by your country thanks very much.

	20-10-2002 00:49									#172
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The best solution, I think, would be that all large bussinesess be coopratives, the people are the company, like many farmers do.

All capitalism creates in an unregulated enviroment is ENRON.

	20-10-2002 01:06									#173
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quote: If you don't know anyone who started with nothing and became very succesful, then I feel sorry for you, but there's really nothing anyone can do about that.

quote: >>>I wonder how the Frankfurter's chain started? Or any other chain of hot dog stands.

The key word there was operator. The success at the level you refer to ultimately relies on hiring other people.

The point is that many businesses rely on economies of scale. It isn't practical, in most cases, to secure liberty without either going under or taking away the liberty of others. Unless the business is socialist.

quote: I wonder if a hot dog stand owner, instead of putting his kids through college, instead franchised, how incredibly successful he would be by the time he was 65?

So he'd have to sacrifice his kids' eduction? That sounds like a pretty crappy deal...

quote: I don't think it was me who resorted to name calling you names out of an inability to defend my point of view.

I guess we now see who the true hypocrite is. I was only "name calling" after I've been insulted first. Namely those idiotic references to my supposed greed (at the expense of everyone else) and the accuastion of hypocrisy when you know absolutely squat about what I advocate.

I guess that means you were unable to defend your point of view.

quote: Here is your hypocrisy, you want anarchy, but you want everyone else to start first.

Huh? Socialism isn't possible without the consent of other people. I'm not in a permanent job right now (in fact, I'm in transistion between temporary jobs), so I can't "start first." Once I do get one, you can rest assured that I will try to get my co-workers to buy up our business.

You seem to be a libertarian. Why don't you stop everything you're doing, and go off to help found that "Libertaria" place y'all like to talk about. If you don't like the US government why don't you actually do something "beside(sic) ***** and moan?" I guess that makes you a hypocrite...

quote: Get off your computer, get rid off all your goods acquired through capitalism, go find yourself a commune, and become an Anarchist.

Leave the US, found Libertaria, and become a Libertarian.

quote: Fact is, you know deep down your "anarchy" is just as "idiotic"

Fact is, you know deep down your "libertarianism" is just as "idiotic."

quote: In fact, it seems the only person who's even touched on the morality issue is Ramo, and his points have been well refuted as far as I can see.

Bah! I don't loose by default.

	20-10-2002 01:49									#174
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People like NeOmega are part of the problem , such anarchist absurdity means you don't deserve to have the vote.

	20-10-2002 02:59									#175
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The trouble is that people are in those treaths often more dicusing theories then reality. The universum is so so complex that no theory is able to correctly decribe something as complex as economics so all we have is reality.

So you don't have to look in those stupid, worthless, far from reality theories but instead towards real nations and ask yourself the question: "In want nation would I want to live?" the system of the nation is most likely the system you will be best off with. If I look around is my answer "Sweden" because it has high average incomens, high income equality, good health care, good education, low polution, less crime, high life expectations, very democratic government and foreight policies I like. So that is the model I consider best and all the other theory and dicusion is just theory and discusion far away from any form of reality.

Off course if you find personal freedoms very important won't you choose Sweden but will you choose the US but that's just a personal opion and discusing about that is pointless.

Thrown all worthless theories and discusions you want againsts this it is still the reality no mather what.

	20-10-2002 04:59									#176
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quote: Why shouldn't we? The world is capitalistic. It isn't practical to divorce ourselves from the system.

And that is why socialism will never work. You are all sell outs .

	20-10-2002 05:00									#177
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Mass migration to Sweden everybody, the liberals shall consolidate thier power there and turn capitalism into a big word you learn in history class.

	20-10-2002 05:02									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Why shouldn't we? The world is capitalistic. It isn't practical to divorce ourselves from the system. And that is why socialism will never work. You are all sell outs .

CONSEVATIVE BASHING TIME

	20-10-2002 05:26									#179
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Sorry missed me, I'm a Libertarian .

LEFT-WING BASHING

Bow to your masters .

	20-10-2002 10:42									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo [QUOTE] The key word there was operator. The success at the level you refer to ultimately relies on hiring other people.

>>>To go from nothing to something, at one point in your life you will have to be the servant. Have you ever payed money to be served? If so you are an evil capitalist. People don't like being the servant, but in a sense they do. Many would much rather be told what to do to make money than to have to go find money in the world.

quote: So he'd have to sacrifice his kids' eduction? That sounds like a pretty crappy deal...

>>>Not really, if his kids went to college, they would also make alot of money, and if you take into account the fact he invested that money in them, he would still be a millionaire. Only thing is, most kids do not give all their money back to the investor.
I ony said this to point out that the way people invest their money is why many people are not millionaires; they are spreading the wealth amongst their family members.

quote: Huh? Socialism isn't possible without the consent of other people.

>>>So you advocate violence to achieve your vision of Utopia?

quote: I'm not in a permanent job right now (in fact, I'm in transistion between temporary jobs), so I can't "start first." Once I do get one, you can rest assured that I will try to get my co-workers to buy up our business.

Yeah right.

quote: You seem to be a libertarian. Why don't you stop everything you're doing, and go off to help found that "Libertaria" place y'all like to talk about. If you don't like the US government why don't you actually do something "beside(sic) ***** and moan?" I guess that makes you a hypocrite...

>>Libertaria was founded in 1776, it's been twisted into a communo-fascist state. But aside from that I do do alot of community service, and political activism.

quote: Fact is, you know deep down your "libertarianism" is just as "idiotic."

>>>Naw, my principals are non-violent.