01-12-2002 22:13									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos I want to know if the Arabs used Dromonts as well, or was it simply a generic military word for ships in Roman vocabulary.

By the ninth century there was apparently little difference between the Byzantine dromon and the Arab equivalent, the shini. They both used lateen sails and double rows of oarsmen. The big book of ships I got this info from also states that they both used siphons for fire throwing, although I thought that 'greek fire' was used only by the Byzantines.

Leo the Wise and Mersius list the various sizes of dromon: dromon (100 oars), yacht (50 oars), selander (150 oars), all of which had 2 banks of oars. Galleys had one bank of oars, although apparently the term was used to describe all rowed fighting ships in later centuries.

	01-12-2002 22:22									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Is it true that remnants of the gallant Varangian guard survived until the very siege of Constantinople? There are obscure reports. I have read that they were replaced with a Cretan unit at the 1420s. If this is so, were they the same Cretans that, fortified in a tower, repelled wave after wave of Turks that they were finally allowed to leave in peace, in honour of their courage?

I suspect that we've got the same source for this (Byxantine Armies 1118 - 1461) but here goes anyway:

The last reference to the Varangian Guard was made in 1404, so it's possible they still existed at the siege of Constantinople in 1453. A Cretan guard unit, mentioned in 1422, probably was present in 1453 and may have replaced the Varangians.

	01-12-2002 22:59									#123
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Yes, the source is the same(B.armies 1118-1461).


Thanks for the Dromon info.
The Arabs had tried unsuccefully to immitate Greek fire, thats why their ships had a siphon mounted on them.

	07-12-2002 05:31									#124
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When was Venice founded?

I've read that survivors of Attila's sack of Aquilleia founded it, circa 452 AD.

Any idea how to implement this in the scenario?

I can't just create settler units after the fall of Aquileia, since in civ2 cities can't be razed unless size 1.

Plus the player will propably use the settlers to other task, rather than founding a city close to the enemy(Huns).

	07-12-2002 05:35									#125
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Does anybody have any info on the White Hun invasion of the Persian Empire(454AD)?


And a bit more specialized question: What is known of the infrastructure and road network of the Sassanid Empire?

	07-12-2002 09:36									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos When was Venice founded? I've read that survivors of Attila's sack of Aquilleia founded it, circa 452 AD. Any idea how to implement this in the scenario? I can't just create settler units after the fall of Aquileia, since in civ2 cities can't be razed unless size 1. Plus the player will propably use the settlers to other task, rather than founding a city close to the enemy(Huns).

Actually you can use the events to remove the city by changing the terrain and then create a unit on another square.
ex.
if city taken
city=Aquileia
defender=Romans
attacker=anybody
then
changeterrain
192,20,192,20,192,20,192,20
end if

its not totally accurate but you should get the picture. Theres a scenario sedpicting the punic wars in which carthage is razed off the map. i think its at csc.

	07-12-2002 10:04									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Does anybody have any info on the White Hun invasion of the Persian Empire(454AD)? And a bit more specialized question: What is known of the infrastructure and road network of the Sassanid Empire?

Dont know to much about the white huns but the Sassanian king Bahram was able to defeat the White Huns in Persia. Also I'm not sure where the resources are at the moment but if I remember right the White Huns defeated and I think killed a Sassianian king when they entered Persia.

heres a website
http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/sassanids/sassanids.htm

	07-12-2002 16:35									#128
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Thanks civfan.

	07-12-2002 18:48									#129
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Byzantine troops, 12-13th century.

Attachment: 12-13.jpg
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	07-12-2002 18:50									#130
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Roman troops, 14th century.

Attachment: 14.jpg
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	08-12-2002 22:54									#131
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just out of curiousity, what type of military training was there during the byzantine empire. I know it wouldn't be on par with the 1st century romans but any know?

	10-12-2002 19:56									#132
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Hmmm.....

Civfan although your question is a bit unclear to me, i will try and answer. I will use the word "Romans" for Imperial armies up to 4th century and "Byzantines" from then on.

The Roman army based its victories on drill and discipline, while the Byzantines on generalship and tactics. To qualify for the officer rank a Byzantine citizen must have been Greek-speaking(not neccesarily of the Greek race) and orthodox in religion.

While the Romans used the same tactic(heavy-infantry block with supporting cavalry on the flanks), the Byzantines used a different tactic against different kind of enemies(from Norman Knights to Persian irregulars and Avars).

During the 9th-10th century the Byzantine Empire fell into a state of anarchy. The Arabs took advantage of this and ravaged Asia minor. The Byzantine warfare then adapted to a form of "Shadowing warfare". Arab bands were carefully followed by a regular army and ambussed while they were full with loot. Effective as this tactic was, it did not prevent collapse of the agricultural economy of Asia Minor. Byzantine counter-raid followed arab raid and the outcome was a destroyed economically zone between the two nations that prevented major military offensives.

Under the reign of the Macedonian dynasty, the Imperial army regained its former glory and vigor and conquered its enemies. However it only slowed the inevitable colapse.

In Leo's "Taktika" the training of the Byz.army is described in full detail. Every footman must learn the use of the bow in addition to that of the spear, and each knight must carry a longbow for mounted use. They must be trained to fight in close as well in open ranks(the infantry). Different enemies require different tactics. The general must not hessitate to lie to his troops about favorable omens in order to motivate them. If facing a superior foe he must camp behind a hill, lest the men understand the odds against them and loose heart. If defeated in battle, the general must not attempt a second "round" while the men have lost confidence in him. It is no dishonour to retreat and reorganize. If leading a large force it is best to invade the enemy's territory as soon as possible, to place the burden of supplying the army on the enemy countryland.

	10-12-2002 20:00									#133
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At its height, the Byzantine Army was the best military machine of the whole world. It defeated enemies such diverse as heavy Norman knights, Arab infantrymen and the Bulgarians who used the same fighting technics as they.

	10-12-2002 22:36									#134
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Palaiologos, have you considered using 'batch files of terror' to upgrade your units without using up additional slots, seeing that you are covering such a large time period. In this way you can replace effective 3rd Century legions with poor quality Limitanei at a predetermined historical point, without the player having to 'upgrade'.

If you are in doubt about the batch file structure, check out FMK's tips in the thread started by Exile

	10-12-2002 22:43									#135
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Here are some units you may (or may not!) find useful:
Roman guard infantry, Legio V Macedonica (limitanei), Equites Stablesiani cavalry and Visigoth infantry, all from the reign of Justinian

Attachment: unitsgb28.gif
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	13-12-2002 02:46									#136
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Splendid as always, Gareth.


Where did you find the uniform of the limitanei unit?

You know, Legio V was the longest surviving Roman unit. As i am a Macedonian myself, i feel particulary proud about them. Their name suggests that they were raised originally in Macedon, doesn't it not?

However in P.Connoly's book "Greece and Rome at War" they are reffered to as a Syrian or Egyptian legion.

The three legions operating at Judaea ,among them the V, are said to be two Syrian and one Egyptian(or the other way around, don't remember).

Were Syrians conscripted into the V at some stage?
I know that by the 2nd century AD the Roman legions were far from their original character, but that does not justify his characterisation of the V as Syrian.

Anybody have any info on the valliant Legio V Macedonica?



P.S If i remember correctly certain elements ("vexilations") of the V served as limitanei while others served in the field armies.

	13-12-2002 04:44									#137
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The shield device for Legio V Macedonica is illustrated in the Notitia. By the time of Justinian, Roman soldiers wore Persian or Germanic clothes; ie long sleeved tunics and trousers with embroided hems, probably white or red. The better equiped units would have used mail or scale armour.

I think they were originally recruited in Macedonia by Octavian in 43 BC, and were involved in the Battle of Actium in 31 BC. They were based in the East from 62 AD and fought in the Jewish war under the command of Vespasian. Later they fought in the Dacian wars.

A Vexillation of Legio V served as a legio comitatenses of the field army of the Master of Soldiers of the East based in Syria in the late 4th Century; by Justinian's reign in the first half of the 6th Century they were part of the Egyptian garrison, based in Elephantine - presumably this is how they came to be referred to as the Egyptian legion(?). Their shield device is depicted on later Byzantine monuments and, as you said, they lasted well into Byzantine times as a border legion in Egypt. I guess they would have been largely recruited locally by this time.

	13-12-2002 05:08									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Yes, the source is the same(B.armies 1118-1461). Thanks for the Dromon info. The Arabs had tried unsuccefully to immitate Greek fire, thats why their ships had a siphon mounted on them.

Random comment - It was not an unusual naval tactic to carry burning coals to throw onto the other ship, since at least the 2nd cent. BC (for example, in the war against Syria and in the Macedonian Wars). Maybe this explains the siphon, greek fire or no.

	13-12-2002 20:15									#139
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Em, you're Macedonian, Palaiologos?
I strongly doubt it .

	13-12-2002 21:04									#140
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I don't get it Valuk.
I was born in Thessalonica in 1982.
What am i, if not a Macedonian(apart from Greek, that is)?.

	15-12-2002 07:19									#141
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Oh, not again! Please don't even answer that one.

	15-12-2002 16:09									#142
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Ok, you are right. This thread is about the Roman Empire, not about a certain slavic people of obscure origins, background and future.

	15-12-2002 17:21									#143
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Maybe a little late, but here's what happened with the Hephtalites or White Huns in Persia:

They invaded Persia after AD 400 and became the most important concern of the Persians from that point on. King Peroz was defeated by them twice. In 465, he was defeated on the battlefield and his son was taken hostage; in 484 AD, he was defeated again and this time killed on the battlefield.
What's interesting is that it is quite well-known what happened in this battle; Peroz tried to assault the Huns, but his entire army was trapped in a hidden trench. Nobody survived, and the bodies of the Persians were buried, in Kurgans or Kurgan-like graves (IIRC).
The ultimate effect of this defeat was, that Persia was brought into tributary dependance to the Huns. This again triggered famines and economic troubles in Persia, which peaked in peasant revolts; the most important figure here was Mazdak, whose ideas can nowadays be regarded as communist. Kavad I. at first supported this revolt, but he lost support in the aristocratic circles; he even had to abdicate for a short while before returning to the throne, this time being hostile to the Mazdakites; Kavad and his son, Chosroes I Anoshirvan bloodily crushed the revolts.
Chosroes now introduced some social, economical and military reforms, propably based on some of the Mazdakite ideas; before, however, going to war with the Hephtalites, Chosroes raided Antiochia, thus breaking the "eternal peace" of 532. About 560, the Persians destroyed the Hephtalite/Hun empire with help of the Kok Turks of Central Asia.
As for the Sasanian infrastructure and road networks, it was in typical Persian tradition, thus very good, though not quite as good as the Roman one. All major cities were connected to each other, the road network was most likely based on that of the Achaemenian royal roads.
There was major traffic in the Persian gulf, as all of Arabia from Basra to Oman was under Persian control; ship routes also connected all major cities at the gulf and in the Arabian sea, from Basra to Daibul (near Karachi).
You should also regard the fact that the Persian-Arabian border was heavily fortified since the reign of Shabuhr I.

	15-12-2002 18:04									#144
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Great info! thanks!

	15-12-2002 18:24									#145
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Ok, ok, I'm sorry, I'm just a bit pissed off about the fact that Greece is amongst one of the few countries in Europe who disregards human rights concerning the Aegean Slavic(Macedonian) and Albanian minorities.
But on the other hand, so do the Turks.

	15-12-2002 18:54									#146
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No problem.
Did you get the maps, BTW?

	21-12-2002 02:59									#147
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Yes. Thanks, Stefan.


And Valuk there is no such a thing as a slavic minority in Greece. They were all driven out after the 1944-49 war for supporting the enemy(communists).

The Albanian minority was cleansed during the German occupation by patriotic guerrilla organizations. End of discussion.

	21-12-2002 16:59									#148
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Ekhm, how do you explain the Macedonian protests in Solun in cca. 1975?
The Greek government still conceals that there is ethic cleansing still going.
But hey, nobody's perfect, especially down on the Balkans

	21-12-2002 23:09									#149
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What protests?



But hey, lets end this discussion here.

	22-12-2002 18:20									#150
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Yeah, let's.