21-10-2002 03:58									#31
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LBJ should not be held responsible for Vietnam. It was clearly building up, and Gulf of Tonkin tricked him into going to war. You know he didn't want to.

Re: Wilson
Racism alone does not make you a bad president. LBJ for instance was a major racist in his words and speech, but look at what he tried to do about poverty and he did rule during the most powerful times of the civil rights movement...as long as you don't apply Racism to your actions, it matters not what you think of other races.

It's like saying Madison was a bad president becuase he was too short.

I would have said Reagan, but since he's not up there I put George W. Bush...he's certainly climbing the charts. If this war goes through, he'll be #1 in my eyes, with Reagan trailing closebehind.

	21-10-2002 03:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Du_Chateau What I confirmed is true it is becoming a Clinton - Bush battle instead of something more interesting.

Current events are usually more interesting than ancient history. This is especially true when it comes to rating somebody's excellence, since presentism makes it extremely difficult to rate the excellence of historical figures the farther back you go.

quote: Also anyone who says that Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Lincoln, Grant, TR, Wilson, FDR, JFK, or Reagan will need strong proof to convince me that they were generally bad presidents.

For starters: Grant had an incredibly corrupt/incompetent administration, second only to the Harding administration and perhaps the Nixon administration; JFK began the Vietnam conflict; Wilson was unabashedly racist; Reagan broke the back of the unions and set back the labor movement; Lincoln abused the Constitution. While I personally like some of these presidents, I wouldn't have been so arrogant as to leave them off of a poll given what I knew of many posters' opinions regarding them -- or, I would have titled the thread "Presidents that I don't like" and unashamedly left many unloved Presidents (who I personally liked) off of the poll.

quote: W.H. Harrisson? He was only president for a month and mostly confined to bed because of Pnuemonia(sp.)

Exactly. He was sick as hell.

	21-10-2002 04:01									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus source?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS...ions/index.html

Not directly saying that but saying something different...

quote: In other comments to reporters, the president has expressed anger about the collapse of Enron, suggesting that investors were not given all the facts, and citing how his mother-in-law lost about $8,000 in her Enron investment.

Can anybody find me an article on campagin donations that Enron makes? I have to type up an essay.

	21-10-2002 04:03									#34
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yes, would have been much more interesting without Bush and Clinton in there...... especially Bush 2, in fact, the question asks who was the worst president. Seeing how bush is in office, he could only be the worst.

	21-10-2002 04:05									#35
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I wonder why people think so poorly of Bush Jr... oh yeah this is apolyton...

	21-10-2002 04:15									#36
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Buchanan (James, not Pat-- Pat would probably be worse), mainly for just sitting on his arse while the Union disintegrated.

IMHO, both Wilson and Eisenhower could have pre-empted Vietnam (the former by granting "self-determination" to at least Indochina, the latter by backing Ho Chi Minh and trying to turn him against Russia-- or at least installing someone more competent than Diem).

	21-10-2002 04:18									#37
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The French could have pre-empted the whole Vietnam crisis.

BTW, Diem was a dictator... he was cruel... there was one famous picture of one of his secret police agents pointing a gun at somebody's head. Not competent?

	21-10-2002 04:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Truman nuked the dirty Japs because they attacked us first without any provocation- kinda like the sniper now. They were unstable and had mental issues, and it took a nuke to straighten them up. A lot of people were killed, sure, but it taught the rest of Japan a priceless lesson- don't mess with the US!

I hope your not using "Jap" in a derogatory tone or else.



As for your comment of "them" being unstabe and having mental issues....

The military were the ones who wanted war. The Emperor was against it. To say that "they" are unstable and possessing mental issues is like me saying that you are a bigot who doesn't know anything.

My accusation does not hold ground and neither does yours.

*END THREADJACK*

If I had another option, i'd pick Bush II.

	21-10-2002 04:23									#39
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The Japanese could not revolt against the military dictatorship it was living under... not even the Emperor could.

	21-10-2002 04:28									#40
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Bill Clinton takes the cake. If I loaned him $20 I would not trust him to return it and to think he was trusted with the presidency. He would probably make a good comedian though...

	21-10-2002 04:29									#41
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Hey! Where is Reagen!

	21-10-2002 04:29									#42
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that's what I'm saying Fez, he's saying that Nihongin society was mentally unstable. WTF is that?

The military just needed the Emperor to approve of the war, even though he didn't want it.

	21-10-2002 04:30									#43
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Hmmmmm, can't believe nobody's mentioned Grant, the blatantly incompetant alcoholic presided over the most corrupt administration ever...

	21-10-2002 04:31									#44
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Worst: Reagan, he was a nationalist, religious freako
#2: Adams, Alien & Sedition acts

Best: FDR, he got us out of the Depression and lead the world through WWII
#2: Andrew Jackson, made the government even more democratic.

Last edited by Odin on 21-10-2002 at 04:37

	21-10-2002 04:32									#45
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Boshko, I forgot about Grant... the fool pardoned himself everytime he got drunk, and appointed highly incompetent friends to high positions. He was a good general but a horrible president.

	21-10-2002 04:34									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Hmmmmm, can't believe nobody's mentioned Grand, the blatantly incompetant alcoholic presided over the most corrupt administration ever...

The guy who started the thread likes him, so you're not allowed to vote for him.

	21-10-2002 04:39									#47
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger For starters: Grant had an incredibly corrupt/incompetent administration, second only to the Harding administration and perhaps the Nixon administration

You have a case there because I was not sure to include him or not.

quote: JFK began the Vietnam conflict

Again JFK only sent military advisors to South Vietnam. LBJ was the president that escalated the Vietnem Conflict.

quote: Wilson was unabashedly racist

Again what does racist have to do with being a bad president. Also see my rebutements of reconstruction and Jim Crow Laws.

quote: Reagan broke the back of the unions and set back the labor movement

Maybe one of the conservatives can answer this more than I can about what was so good about Reagan that outweigh his bad.

quote: Lincoln abused the Constitution.

Lincoln also preserved the union and ended slavery.

I will be the first one to admit that I do not know why I put Martin Van Buren, John Q. Adams, and Benjarmin(sp.) Harrisson on the poll.

	21-10-2002 04:43									#48
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I will just post this link about Reagan... discuss it amongst yourselves... I got to finish this essay...

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-261.html

I like Reagan... and he is one of my favorites...

	21-10-2002 05:01									#49
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Out of Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr,
Carter has been the most ineffectual and poorest performing all around. Not to disparage this other achievements, but he would've been better suited to be a minister than a politician.

	21-10-2002 05:09									#50
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Although George W. Bush is not there yet...he is certainly trying his damnedest to be the worst.

Let's jeer him on!

	21-10-2002 05:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Out of Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr, Carter has been the most ineffectual and poorest performing all around. Not to disparage this other achievements, but he would've been better suited to be a minister than a politician.

NO BASHING MR. NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

	21-10-2002 05:40									#52
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Nixon:

ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT EXHIBITED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN THE NAME OF ITSELF AND OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AGAINST RICHARD M. NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IN MAINTENANCE AND SUPPORT OF ITS IMPEACHMENT AGAINST HIM FOR HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANOURS.

Article 1: Obstruction of Justice.

In his conduct of the office of the President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, in that: On June 17, 1972, and prior thereto, agents of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President committed unlawful entry of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in Washington, District of Columbia, for the purpose of securing political intelligence. Subsequent thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his subordinates and agents in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede and obstruct investigations of such unlawful entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities. '

And that's without the illegal bombing of Cambodia, and political repression at home. Anyone remember no knock?


(July) 1973

The Drug Enforcement Agency is established.
President Nixon sets up a "superagency" to handle all aspects of the drug problem. The DEA consolidates agents from the BNDD, Customs, the CIA and ODALE and is headed by Myles Ambrose. It becomes known for its use of "cowboy" law enforcement tactics that stretch the limits of the Fourth Amendment, including no-knock warrants, IRS audits, and wire taps.

	21-10-2002 05:53									#53
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I'm not using "Jap" as a derogatory term, that's just what they were called back then! I saw an old newspaper that said "Japs Bomb Pearl Harbor" as a headline. Jap is just a short term for Japanese.

	21-10-2002 06:01									#54
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Sorry, my bad. That's what tense I thought you were using.

My fault for jumping to conclusions and getting all riled up.

	21-10-2002 06:08									#55
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Buchanon for fiddling while Rome burned.

Nixon should get a vote for trashing the Constitution, but his foreign policy outside of Southeast Asia was a strength.

Reagan should get a vote for bringing back the plutocracy, bankrupting the middle class, and setting back race relations 20 years, but it's too early to tell whether his damage is lasting or just a forgettable hiccup.

A special award to the Gilded Age period, for worst everything from Presidents to Supreme Courts to Congresses.

	21-10-2002 06:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Odin NO BASHING MR. NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

Why not? I said his postpresidency activties not withstanding, he was, at most, impotent as a President.

	21-10-2002 07:15									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I hope your not using "Jap" in a derogatory tone or else. As for your comment of "them" being unstabe and having mental issues.... The military were the ones who wanted war. The Emperor was against it. To say that "they" are unstable and possessing mental issues is like me saying that you are a bigot who doesn't know anything. My accusation does not hold ground and neither does yours.

I agree completely that KoR is an a-hole for using that racial epithet. He does seem to be trolling, so we can hope that he doesn't actually believe that crap he wrote.

As for Hirohito, what you are stating about him is generally considered propoganda created after the war in an effort to rehabilitate him and indeed to keep him from a trial and execution like Tojo. There is a lot of evidence that he gave the green light to the military willingly, though he may not have been consulted before every massacre and war crime (and there were many) committed by Japanese forces.

	21-10-2002 07:22									#58
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As my knowledge of 19th century U.S. presidents is not the best, I'll have to give a qualified vote to JFK. Drug-addicted, sex-addicted, brought the use of assassination as a tool of U.S. Foreign policy into the arsenal (and used it more than any other president), started down the road to Vietnam, slept with a known Soviet spy, brought the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. to the brink of nuclear war over a trifle, which ultimately led to the downfall of the relatively moderate Khruschev regime and the return of Stalinist leadership in the Soviet Union for another 25 years. In addition he brought the notion of a president as a television personality and even a sex symbol into being, assuring that the general decline in literacy and civic awareness and the increase in triviality brought on by television would be extended into politics with a vengeance. Also, he was lukewarm on civil rights, and corrupt. Definitely the worst president in my lifetime.

	21-10-2002 07:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Why not? I said his postpresidency activties not withstanding, he was, at most, impotent as a President.

Aren't you forgetting his contributions to civil rights? (which were practically erased by Reagan)

	21-10-2002 07:28									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander As my knowledge of 19th century U.S. presidents is not the best, I'll have to give a qualified vote to JFK. Drug-addicted, sex-addicted, brought the use of assassination as a tool of U.S. Foreign policy into the arsenal (and used it more than any other president), started down the road to Vietnam, slept with a known Soviet spy, brought the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. to the brink of nuclear war over a trifle, which ultimately led to the downfall of the relatively moderate Khruschev regime and the return of Stalinist leadership in the Soviet Union for another 25 years. In addition he brought the notion of a president as a television personality and even a sex symbol into being, assuring that the general decline in literacy and civic awareness and the increase in triviality brought on by television would be extended into politics with a vengeance. Also, he was lukewarm on civil rights, and corrupt. Definitely the worst president in my lifetime.

Thats bulls!it, you've ben reading too many tabloids.