21-10-2002 22:54									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus why are Adams and Adams up there?

John Adams - Alien and Sedition Acts and the XYZ Affair.

John Q. Adams - Other than that he did not win the presidency by popular or electorial vote not tied in the electorial vote, I do not know.

	21-10-2002 23:21									#92
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Whoever annexed Texas. Just kidding.

Hmm. I accuse van Buren. Why? No, I submit to you: why not!

-Arrian

	21-10-2002 23:23									#93
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what was the Alien and Sedition Act about?
and the XYZ affair?

	21-10-2002 23:28									#94
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quote: People were asking about Enron campaign contributions http://www.opensecrets.org/alerts/v6/enron_totals.asp

It's clear the Republicans got way more than the Democrats.

We all know where Fez got his facts from

	21-10-2002 23:33									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus what was the Alien and Sedition Act about? and the XYZ affair?

Oh, I am sure the French had something to do with it.

	22-10-2002 00:16									#96
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quote: Ike Eisenhower

He was only perhaps one of the best President's of the 20th Century. As a former general, he realized it wasn't in our best interest to go to war with anyone, so he played down the rhetoric, ended the Korean War. He also warned about the military-industrial complex. As a general, he could adequatly speak on the dangers of that institution without being labeled anti-military.

Also the Interstate Highway System, which definetely helped the commerce of the country.

	22-10-2002 00:28									#97
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Yeah, Ike deserves some credit for trying to warn us about the military-industrial complex.

-Arrian

	22-10-2002 01:18									#98
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quote: However- Only Person killed in the Whiskey Rebellion was a federal officer. Two rebels were charged with treason, but Washington pardoned them.

That's irrelevent. The point is, crushing a rebellion against an oppressive law is a bad thing.

quote: Also, the bank of the U.S. was something my personal favorite president, Thomas Jefferson, fought hard to beat. Hamilton and his Federalists got their way.

Yep. Actually, Jefferson fought against the renewal of the Bank of the US during his term, and so won eventually (at least, until Polk, IIRC, comes along).

Anyways, I only mentioned bad things the supposedly "good" Presidents did to prove the point that, well, they were all a bunch of *******s, and none of them are above criticism.

quote: Jefferson IMO was the greatest President, and

I might agree to some extent (W. H. Harrison is my personal fave ), but the "greatest President of the US" isn't exactly a complement coming from me.

quote: I am not an apologist for conquering American Indian "lands".

I suggest you look up the word "apologist," 'cuz clearly you are one wrt the US' Amerindian policy.

quote: The USA made a much more efficient use of the land, and fed more people than the Indians.

Yes, after all the Creek, Cherokee, Seminole, Choctaw, or the Chickasaw tribes never had plant or domestiction, and certainly no industry. Obviously, that's why they numbered only around a hundred-thousand or so, a typical population density for hunter-gatherers. So we had to move them because they weren't "efficient" with their land (if a few thousand died on the forced march, who cares - after all they were just a bunch of primatives).

quote: Given the history of the anarchist movement at the time (terrorism and all), that is somewhat understandable. Still doesn't make it right though.

Anarchist "terrorism" primarily targetted oppressive tyrants (either public or private), such as industrialists who murdered strikers or people like McKinely (one of the worst Presidents IMO, and that's certainly saying something ), that certainly wouldn't be stopped by the authorities. In other words, most anarchist "terrorism" certainly was not terrorism by any reasonable definition, and certainly paled in comparison to the terror coming from other political groups (only, that kind of terror tended to be state-endorsed).

quote: what was the Alien and Sedition Act about?

They were a series of laws that criminalized sedition and allowed the government to lock up or deport aliens who they thought were anti-government, among other things.

	22-10-2002 01:29									#99
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*Intern runs into Al Gore's office ( back in the good old days before Dubya ).*

"Sir! Sir! Someone just bought a copy of your book!"

"Wow. This calls for a celebration."

[Reaches over and puns on LP]

*Celebrate good times, come on!*

"I will."

I rely on the Simpsons to teach me about US politics.

Still... nice to see everyone has so much faith in bo-bo... sorry, George W Bush.

	22-10-2002 01:36									#100
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Jimmy Carter - ruined both the economy and foreign policy in one administration - and had the unmitigated gaul to blame it on the American people.

	22-10-2002 01:40									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Ike Eisenhower He was only perhaps one of the best President's of the 20th Century. As a former general, he realized it wasn't in our best interest to go to war with anyone, so he played down the rhetoric, ended the Korean War. He also warned about the military-industrial complex. As a general, he could adequatly speak on the dangers of that institution without being labeled anti-military. Also the Interstate Highway System, which definetely helped the commerce of the country.

I second this motion.

The best presidents of the 20th Century:

1) FDR
2) Reagan
3) Eisenhower
4) Kennedy
5) Nixon
6) Bush I
7) Bush II - he may move up rapidly if Iraq goes well.
8) Clinton
9) Teddy Roosevelt

	22-10-2002 01:41									#102
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I also cast a vote for LBJ - he not only ruined foreign policy, he kill 50,000 Americans and a million Vietnamese.

	22-10-2002 01:45									#103
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quote: The only good US President.... ...is a dead US president. This means that the only good US presidents are Kennedy, Lincoln and Mc Kinley IIRC who were assasinated. I can't say who is the worst.

Hey, you stole my line! William H. Harrison died from pneumonia right after taking office, so I think he deserves the props.

quote: John Q. Adams - Other than that he did not win the presidency by popular or electorial vote not tied in the electorial vote, I do not know.

He's typically regarded as a poor President for being an inept politician in getting his agenda through Congress, and precipitating the Nullification Crisis after being outmaneuvered by Jackson.

quote: As always, peole put their political beliefs in front of everything else. Being a good or Bad leader has to do with ones accomplisments or failures of policy; not wether you agree or disagree with the policy. In that sense, lincoln,TR, FRD, Truman, Jefferson, jackson, so on are great presidents, as their policy successes greaty outnumber their policy failures.

Political beliefs being used in judging politicians, imagine that. The question is not "which US had the worst leadership qualities," but simply which one was worst.

	22-10-2002 01:46									#104
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quote: They were a series of laws that criminalized sedition and allowed the government to lock up or deport aliens who they thought were anti-government, among other things.

Hmmm. not unlike Shrubya is doing now with all those arabs held without being accused of any "real" crime.

	22-10-2002 01:50									#105
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quote: Hmmm. not unlike Shrubya is doing now with all those arabs held without being accused of any "real" crime.

Well, I don't think any of the Alien and Sedition Acts had anything to do with indefinite detention, and the acts only affected something like 25 people, so what Shrub is doing is quite a bit worse (and the Patriot Act ain't likely to be repealed any time soon).

	22-10-2002 01:53									#106
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I find it interesting that George W. Bush has 38% of the votes. He has been one of the more popular presidents of our time - at least to the American people. Who is voting here? A bunch of non American leftists?

Probably.

	22-10-2002 01:58									#107
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most (european) non Americans dislike bush, left and right alike.

for good reasons

	22-10-2002 02:16									#108
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It's also easy to recall the faults of the current or very recent (Clinton) president, whereas others get off light because damning them requires historical knowledge.

-Arrian

	22-10-2002 02:21									#109
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A president who has the least accomplishment relative to the years in office is the worst.

	22-10-2002 03:45									#110
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quote: The point is, crushing a rebellion against an oppressive law is a bad thing.

The main question is what IS an oppresive law?

	22-10-2002 03:48									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus most (european) non Americans dislike bush, left and right alike. for good reasons

Alright, Saint Marcus, show me one member of the European right that does not like Bush.

	22-10-2002 03:48									#112
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What do you mean, Imran?

	22-10-2002 03:54									#113
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Well you stated it was Oppressive, that doesn't mean that most people would .

	22-10-2002 03:54									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless A president who has the least accomplishment relative to the years in office is the worst.

This is completely true.
I pick Coolidge and Buchanan

	22-10-2002 03:58									#115
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quote: Well you stated it was Oppressive, that doesn't mean that most people would .

The poor, who had little say in the government, obviously thought it was, or they wouldn't have risen in rebellion in the first place. It was a law intended to use taxes from the poor to fund welfare for the rich (the Bank of the US).

	22-10-2002 04:01									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alright, Saint Marcus, show me one member of the European right that does not like Bush.

Jorg Haider, who loves to be in the same lot as Saddam?

	22-10-2002 04:05									#117
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quote: The poor, who had little say in the government, obviously thought it was, or they wouldn't have risen in rebellion in the first place. It was a law intended to use taxes from the poor to fund welfare for the rich (the Bank of the US).

So?

I don't find that oppressive. The Bank of the US has many more benefits than simply funding welfare of the rich. It creates stability. The Bank of the US today (the Federal Reserve) provides stability in the banking system.

	22-10-2002 04:07									#118
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quote: Alright, Saint Marcus, show me one member of the European right that does not like Bush.

Haider

your turn

	22-10-2002 04:08									#119
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Regardless of the supposed merits of the Bank of the US, the whiskey tax was nonetheless a tax on poverty.

Last edited by Ramo on 22-10-2002 at 04:33

	22-10-2002 04:10									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Jorg Haider, who loves to be in the same lot as Saddam?

Jorg Haider - is this the Austrian Nazi? I don't doubt he would like Saddam. Reminds him of Adolf. Loves to kill Jews.

So, Bush is putting pressure on an all-"right" guy like Saddam, and Haider gets pissed?

Sounds "right."

But if this is the European "right," what in Europe corresponds to the Republican Party? Christian Democrats?