21-10-2002 07:29									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Why not? I said his postpresidency activties not withstanding, he was, at most, impotent as a President.

Carter was naive when he became president, and suffered for it right through the 1980 election even though he was a fast learner and set the country on a good foreign and military policy path. A lot of the groundwork for the rebuilding of the U.S. military, the resumption of U.S. activity in the Cold War, and U.S. policy in the Arabian Gulf were laid by the Carter administration, even though they were played out under his successors to a much more generally realized degree. His sucess with the Camp David accords was a masterstroke, not only generating a lot of good press for Carter and the U.S., but also strategically in reigning in hostile states like Lybia and Syria.

	21-10-2002 07:36									#62
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how the heck was carter naive?

	21-10-2002 07:36									#63
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Comedy "William Henry Harrison" Option.

	21-10-2002 08:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by orange Re: Wilson Racism alone does not make you a bad president. LBJ for instance was a major racist in his words and speech, but look at what he tried to do about poverty and he did rule during the most powerful times of the civil rights movement...as long as you don't apply Racism to your actions, it matters not what you think of other races.

What words and what speech are you referring to?

I have read material where a historian has argued that LBJ was anti-racist, due to his contribution to trying to meet the demands of civil rights activists.

	21-10-2002 08:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Du_Chateau I thought this would be a war between Hoover and Buchanon.

Then why did you add Clinton and Bush?

	21-10-2002 08:33									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Odin how the heck was carter naive?

Carter thought that by playing nice, the world would pay respect to the US. Well, under his admin, the US got fvcked around by every little thug out there. He eventually recognized the mistake, restarted the military buildup such as the Peacekeeper missle program. But it was too late for him to win back voters.

He should not have become the President, the post of the American President is not meant for good/nice people.

	21-10-2002 08:43									#67
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Buchanan by far. If he put in half the effort either Clinton or Bush have put into their presidencies, the Civil War could have been avoided.

	21-10-2002 09:52									#68
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quote: Re: Wilson Racism alone does not make you a bad president. LBJ for instance was a major racist in his words and speech, but look at what he tried to do about poverty and he did rule during the most powerful times of the civil rights movement...as long as you don't apply Racism to your actions, it matters not what you think of other races.

Wilson was one of the most imperialistic Presidents we've had. Unquestionably, he applied racism to his actions.

	21-10-2002 10:03									#69
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quote: I thought this would be a war between Hoover and Buchanon.

Why Hoover? He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. He actually did try something (the Reconstruction Finance Corportion). It was too little too late, but the most radical thing that was done to that point.

quote: there was one famous picture of one of his secret police agents pointing a gun at somebody's head

Most misinterpreted photo of all time. The shooter was a general and the shootee was a spy. The general had to shoot the spy because he was in front of his troops and couldn't just let the spy go! That would have provided a bad example.

Odin: Sikander is right, on both accounts. It seems you have a rosy view of Kennedy and Carter. Perhaps you were reading the tabloids of how good Kennedy was? Kennedy and Carter were probably the two MOST unprepared Presidents we've ever had. They had no idea what they were doing.

As for Reagan, I'd vote for him for one of the best. The busting of the unions is one of the pluses for me . That, and his rhetoric of government being the problem changed the national consensus on size of government, and forced the Dems to move to the right to get elected, which moved the middle more to the right .

	21-10-2002 10:18									#70
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quote: Most misinterpreted photo of all time. The shooter was a general and the shootee was a spy. The general had to shoot the spy because he was in front of his troops and couldn't just let the spy go! That would have provided a bad example.

I'm not sure how that justifies summary executions.

	21-10-2002 10:22									#71
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Hoover or Reagan. I'll leave the arguing for my case to other people, as they all do it better than me.

I'm just surprised by how popular Reagan is -- I assume it's mostly because he was shot (as being shot increases one's popularity immensely) and lived, unfortunately.

	21-10-2002 10:23									#72
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quote: I'm not sure how that justifies summary executions.

Treason by a person in your unit.

In a state of war, that justifies it to me. Cannot have a lack of discipline on the lines. There is no right to a 'fair trial' a. while you are on the front and b. in a country without that right proscribed.

	21-10-2002 10:28									#73
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quote: Treason by a person in your unit. In a state of war, that justifies it to me. Cannot have a lack of discipline on the lines. There is no right to a 'fair trial' a. while you are on the front and b. in a country without that right proscribed.

I agree with you, if by treason you mean the person trying to kill you or somehow cause your death. That's legitimate self defense under any circumstances. If by treason you mean betraying the country, I don't think that's a valid excuse for execution (summary or otherwise).

Further, if he was drafted or forced into the military (I'm actually not sure what specific instance we're talking about, I'm just talking about summary executions and treason in general), a summary execution would be invalid under any circumstances - if someone forced me into the military, I'd see no problem with shooting my way out of it.

	21-10-2002 10:31									#74
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quote: If by treason you mean betraying the country, I don't think that's a valid excuse for execution (summary or otherwise).

That's nice... but what does it matter that you don't think it's valid? Are you ever going to be in a position to make a decision on it?

Furthermore, since he was giving information about troop movements, they are saving their troops lives by killing the spy.

quote: Further, if he was drafted or forced into the military (I'm actually not sure what specific instance we're talking about, I'm just talking about summary executions and treason in general), a summary execution would be invalid under any circumstances - if someone forced me into the military, I'd see no problem with shooting my way out of it.

And I'd see no problem with them shooting you .

	21-10-2002 10:35									#75
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quote: That's nice... but what does it matter that you don't think it's valid? Are you ever going to be in a position to make a decision on it?

Not really and probably not

quote: And I'd see no problem with them shooting you

Oh, you'd say that anyway

	21-10-2002 11:31									#77
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I've been avoiding making this post, but I'm stuck on my paper right now, so I might as well get this done.

quote: Also anyone who says that Washington,

The Whiskey Tax, crushing the Whiskey Rebellion, the Fugitive Slave Act, the Bank of the US, taking Amerindian lands (particularly in Indiana and North Carolina), etc.

quote: Jefferson,

Giving France the go-ahead to conquer Haiti and streaching the Constitution, continuing Washington's Amerindian policies, etc..

quote: Madison,

Taking tons of Amerindian lands in the War of 1812 and starting the First Seminole War.

quote: Jackson,

Ditto with the Trail of Tears, and the Second Seminole War. Also, refusing to allow South Carolina to nullify the tariff of abominations.

quote: Lincoln,

The draft, the suspension of habeas corpus, tons of corporate welfare to railroads and canal companies, the Homestead Act, the Morrell Tariffs, the use of federal troops in the breaking of strikes, the massacre of amerindians, and the lack of will to do anything substancial for black liberty.

quote: Grant,

Huge amounts of corruption, high protective tariffs, and lots of corporate welfare.

quote: TR,

A protectionist, one of the most imperialistic presidents; it fought a nasty war in the Philippines (where the US had concentration camps), the take-over of the Panama Canal, helping Mexico crush a bunch of strikers, intervened in Cuba, Honduras, the Dominican Republic, and later Panama again, he criminalized dissenting opinions on the home front (anarchism), etc.

quote: Wilson,[/qutoe] Another big imperialist; he intervened in Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Haiti, Guatemala, and Honduras (many of these multiple times or a continuous occupation), and the intervention in the Russian counter-revolution, he helped to popularize the KKK, and did nothing as their power reached dangerous heights, the Espionage Act, the Draft, and the mismanagement of Versailles, more strike-breaking with the army - this time in Colorado. [quote]FDR,

Lots of crazy authoritarian stuff with regards to labor relations (good thing a lot of it was struck down by SCOTUS), large increases in government authority, the Smith Act, the Draft, and large numbers of nasty things done in WW II (firebombing civilian cities, for instance).

quote: JFK,

Bay of Pigs, Laos, Vietnam... And he was a civil rights reacionary, big authoritarian, ****ed up the Cuban Missile Crisis, ranted about the missile gap when he knew it didn't exist, lots of corporate welfare, etc. I completely agree with what Sikander wrote about him.

quote: or Reagan will need strong proof to convince me that they were generally bad presidents.

A number of bloody imperialistic interventions including Nicaragua and El Salvador, big authoritarian, crushed labor, had big increases in regressive taxes (social security taxes), lots of corporate welfare, deficit spending on crap, etc.

	21-10-2002 12:11									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander As my knowledge of 19th century U.S. presidents is not the best, I'll have to give a qualified vote to JFK. Drug-addicted, sex-addicted, brought the use of assassination as a tool of U.S. Foreign policy into the arsenal (and used it more than any other president), started down the road to Vietnam, slept with a known Soviet spy, brought the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. to the brink of nuclear war over a trifle, which ultimately led to the downfall of the relatively moderate Khruschev regime and the return of Stalinist leadership in the Soviet Union for another 25 years. In addition he brought the notion of a president as a television personality and even a sex symbol into being, assuring that the general decline in literacy and civic awareness and the increase in triviality brought on by television would be extended into politics with a vengeance. Also, he was lukewarm on civil rights, and corrupt. Definitely the worst president in my lifetime.

Couldn't agree more (except for the 'in my lifetime' part )

Nuclear brinksmanship alone would earn him my vote.

	21-10-2002 12:12									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How was that a bad thing?

Guess...

	21-10-2002 14:19									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I've been avoiding making this post, but I'm stuck on my paper right now, so I might as well get this done. The Whiskey Tax, crushing the Whiskey Rebellion, the Fugitive Slave Act, the Bank of the US, taking Amerindian lands (particularly in Indiana and North Carolina), etc. Giving France the go-ahead to conquer Haiti and streaching the Constitution, continuing Washington's Amerindian policies, etc..

Because power corrupts and Government is inherently evil, (Jefferson said this) I will agree with most of these premises......

However-
Only Person killed in the Whiskey Rebellion was a federal officer. Two rebels were charged with treason, but Washington pardoned them.

Also, the bank of the U.S. was something my personal favorite president, Thomas Jefferson, fought hard to beat. Hamilton and his Federalists got their way.

Jefferson IMO was the greatest President, and

I am not an apologist for conquering American Indian "lands". The USA made a much more efficient use of the land, and fed more people than the Indians.

	21-10-2002 14:54									#81
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I'll add my voice to the chorus of 'Where's Reagan?"s

I love what Gorbachev says about Reagan in his memoirs.

BTW, Imran must be annoyed that Giancarlo pre-empted his Cato Institute link...

	21-10-2002 19:36									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo he criminalized dissenting opinions on the home front (anarchism), etc.

Given the history of the anarchist movement at the time (terrorism and all), that is somewhat understandable. Still doesn't make it right though.

ZoboZeWarrior: You tell me.

	21-10-2002 20:18									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Where is Woodrow Wilson on there?

Someone bashing Woodrow Wilson? One of my favourites. Good golly! Then I suggest Jefferson and Washington to that list; not to mention Abe. Anyway, he was still an interesting person with his alternative peace treaty to end the Great War.

Okay, seriously, who do I choose outside the list?

Ike Eisenhower

Military general that shouldn't have become a president. Too illogical career for someone who's not a politician after all. But of course I could choose Nixon or G.W.B. too, except that I pick Ike more of principal reason. Military leadership has rarely proven to be good if you talk about democracy and civil liberties.

	21-10-2002 21:18									#84
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As always, peole put their political beliefs in front of everything else.

Being a good or Bad leader has to do with ones accomplisments or failures of policy; not wether you agree or disagree with the policy. In that sense, lincoln,TR, FRD, Truman, Jefferson, jackson, so on are great presidents, as their policy successes greaty outnumber their policy failures.

Stalin was an evil man, but a great leader (he got what he wanted to see done done)

I dislike Reagan policies much, and I despise Bush with an incredible passion, but both were successful at getting their policies passed and incorporated into the American system: thus they were, or for now have been, successful.

	21-10-2002 21:41									#85
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People were asking about Enron campaign contributions

http://www.opensecrets.org/alerts/v6/enron_totals.asp

	21-10-2002 22:03									#86
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The only good US President....

...is a dead US president.

This means that the only good US presidents are Kennedy, Lincoln and Mc Kinley IIRC who were assasinated.

I can't say who is the worst.

	21-10-2002 22:06									#87
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The worst President is always the current President.

	21-10-2002 22:26									#88
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why are Adams and Adams up there?

	21-10-2002 22:30									#89
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I'm really only familiar with the 20th century presidents. Out of those, I have to pick Clinton as the worst.

GWB cant be scored yet, the game aint done.

	21-10-2002 22:43									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus why are Adams and Adams up there?

John the Alien and Sedition Acts; Quincy always flew into the teeth of political opposition.