22-10-2002 04:15									#121
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in a recent poll in Der Spiegel....19% said Bush was doing a good job. Considering nearly half of the german population voted for right wing parties, a large part of those 81% who did not think Bush is doing a good job are right wingers.

your turn.

	22-10-2002 04:16									#122
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Silvio Berlusconi and Edmund Stoiber are the European equivalent of American Republicans. Both, at least in my memory, don't have beefs with GWB.

BTW, the German Republican party is a Nazi party.

	22-10-2002 04:19									#123
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Hoover and Carter are both blamed for bad economies they had nothing to do with, and which destroyed the support for their presidencies. Odds are each would have been effective if they hadn't been hammered by external events.

	22-10-2002 04:56									#124
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no matter how bad Bush or Clinton were they aren't even in the same ballpark as Buchanan or Harding

	22-10-2002 10:06									#125
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quote: Regardless of the supposed merits of the Bank of the US, the whiskey tax was nonetheless a tax on poverty.

As are cigarette taxes.

quote: Hoover and Carter are both blamed for bad economies they had nothing to do with, and which destroyed the support for their presidencies. Odds are each would have been effective if they hadn't been hammered by external events.

Totally agree. Although both could have done more than they did. Carter was hampered by the fact he painted himself such an outsider, he couldn't do jack with Congress.

	22-10-2002 10:16									#126
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quote: As are cigarette taxes.

I certainly disagree with them, and I wouldn't be surprised if the poor disproportionately use cigarettes, but it's not really analagous. Given the extensive gov't regulation/prohibition/etc. of various drugs, it's more of a "morality/health law," as opposed to Washington's whiskey tax, where other alcoholic beverages weren't taxed at the time.

The intent of the laws were very different, and the whiskey tax was far more oppressive than the cigaratte taxes is today.

	22-10-2002 10:36									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus in a recent poll in Der Spiegel....19% said Bush was doing a good job. Considering nearly half of the german population voted for right wing parties, a large part of those 81% who did not think Bush is doing a good job are right wingers. your turn.

Man has Germany gone pacifist.

	22-10-2002 10:39									#128
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quote: and I wouldn't be surprised if the poor disproportionately use cigarettes

I don't have statistics but I seriously doubt smokers are disproportionately poor.

	22-10-2002 10:43									#129
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That's what Imran said. I don't know one way or another.

	22-10-2002 12:16									#130
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at this point 26 people (more than 1/3) have voted for bush...

it is astonishing that so many people are so ignorant of US presidents. Atleast they have the sense to vote and run away without posting

	22-10-2002 15:55									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Man has Germany gone pacifist.

No Ned, Germany hasn't gone pacifist nor do the other countries in Europe but it's one thing to wage a war against terrorism and a whole other ball game to strike premptively!

Next we are going to have people executed on a suspicion that they one day might become murderers! Besides Bush has not done much else (at least the way we see it from here) besides aggresive rhetoric, snobbing world opinion, etc. How are his (or better yet WHAT are) his domestic policies? Does anybody know or care?

I am not sure why somebody would put John Adams on this list! He was after all right up there with Washington, Jefferson, Madison and others when it came to the Revolution. I think he did a pretty decent job as a President, certainly not less than T. Jefferson.

So long...

	22-10-2002 16:10									#132
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I don't have statistics but I seriously doubt smokers are disproportionately poor.

They are. Smoking in the US shows a near-perfect negative correlation with income. Do a Google search using Smoking and "Income Level" (in quotes) as your keywords, and you'll get reams of reliable data on this.

	22-10-2002 16:34									#133
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quote: it is astonishing that so many people are so ignorant of US presidents.

And how many Dutch PMs do you know?

and Shrubya isn't the worst american president...yet. But has every potential to become the worst.

quote: Man has Germany gone pacifist.

in other words: if you disagree with Shrubya you're a pacifist?

quote: I am not sure why somebody would put John Adams on this list! He was after all right up there with Washington, Jefferson, Madison and others when it came to the Revolution.

that's why I asked.

	22-10-2002 16:41									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless A president who has the least accomplishment relative to the years in office is the worst.

To me that means the country was better off the less a president "accomplished"

	22-10-2002 16:46									#135
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Besides Bush has not done much else (at least the way we see it from here) besides aggresive rhetoric, snobbing world opinion, etc.

I agree, Bush has not done a whole ot to make him the worst.... yet. I am totally against the War with Iraq, but, he hasn't launched.... yet.

His protectionist trade policies with over Canadian Lumber and American Stell have irked me a bit. He seems to be against anything Libertarian, and is even getting weak kneed about fingerprinting.

However, He has only had two years to do damage. He has yet to force ten's of thousands to their deaths in Vietnam for his buddies in the Helicopter industry, like my vote winner, LBJ.

	22-10-2002 16:48									#136
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I don't have statistics but I seriously doubt smokers are disproportionately poor.

Oh yeah. Smokers are definitely of the lower classes, and as taxes increase they continue to lose more and more capital that they could be investing elsewhere during their short lives.

It is a vicious cycle, and it's getting worse, no thanks to the U.S. and state governments.


Okay, I'll edit so I don't post a fourth time, but regarding Adams...
Alien and Sedition Acts were one of the most blatant attempts at tyranny so soon after the revolution. He tried to limit free speach, and had journalists thrown in jail for criticizing the government. Luckily America still had it's newborn eyes open.

	22-10-2002 17:15									#137
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quote: They are. Smoking in the US shows a near-perfect negative correlation with income. Do a Google search using Smoking and "Income Level" (in quotes) as your keywords, and you'll get reams of reliable data on this.

I stand corrected, then.

	22-10-2002 17:57									#138
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quote: The intent of the laws were very different, and the whiskey tax was far more oppressive than the cigaratte taxes is today.

It was an excise tax. Hamilton picked a bunch of profitable businesses to tax. There was no intent to 'screw the poor'.

Btw, the government taxes cigarettes not for 'health and safety', but because they can make tons of money off an addiction.

	22-10-2002 20:01									#139
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I stand corrected Pioneer and Saint Marcus - Clearly is not that Germany has gone pacifist, it is that Germany has seen the wisdom of Neville Chamberlain.

	22-10-2002 21:51									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I stand corrected Pioneer and Saint Marcus - Clearly is not that Germany has gone pacifist, it is that Germany has seen the wisdom of Neville Chamberlain.

I always love it when you bring this up Ned. Just for the benefit of everyone else, please explain again how Hussein and Iraq are like Hitler and Germany, other than both being brutal dictators? Is it all the additional territory Hussein is demanding or simply taking? Is it his retaking of occupied territory? Is it the undeniable proof of rearmament?

And then, for further clarification, please equate the lack of will to attack Iraq outright with the handing over territory belonging to other sovereign states.

I, for one, don't recall any European leader stating that Hussein should be allowed to have NBC weapons. Seems to me that they just want some proof in the form of weapons inspections before declaring war on a country.

	22-10-2002 22:24									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, the government taxes cigarettes not for 'health and safety', but because they can make tons of money off an addiction.

And then sue to make another ton from the very same companies that make the products they tax. It's quite an ingenious way to double dip at the till.

	23-10-2002 00:54									#142
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And then sue to make another ton from the very same companies that make the products they tax. It's quite an ingenious way to double dip at the till.

More ingenious, sales tax from cigarettes in WA state have just about doubled in the past 10 years. Not to mention the huge taxes levied now on a pack of cigarettes. Even "funnier" is now all that money won in lawsuits has almost all been spent! On non-health care related items

I don't smoke anymoe, but if I get emphysema, or lung cancer, I am suing Washington to put me in the best of care, because I funded it through when I did smoke.

	23-10-2002 02:20									#143
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega To me that means the country was better off the less a president "accomplished"

Accomplishment doesn't necessarily mean taking actions or passing legislations wantonly. A good president knows when to interfere and when not to. As the leader of a nation, it's totally irresponsible to let everything run its natural course, but it can also get messy when hyperactive presidents are trying to create a "legacy" for themselves.

	23-10-2002 04:04									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov IMHO, both Wilson and Eisenhower could have pre-empted Vietnam (the former by granting "self-determination" to at least Indochina, the latter by backing Ho Chi Minh and trying to turn him against Russia-- or at least installing someone more competent than Diem).

IIRC at the time that Ho Chi Minh tried to meet with Wilson in Paris he was only a busboy at a restaurant. Seriously, how many world leaders would take the time at a hotly contested negotiation to talk with the hired help about a homeland that was not an issue at the conference?

Other than failing to advocate self-determination for non-whites during his Presidency did Wilson do anything during his Presidency that stood out as a particularily racist act? Bear in mind that no one else at the Paris conference seemed to have even remotely consider such issues. No President before FDR ever took a stand against racial discrimination and predjudice. It is unfair to single out Wilson for not being decades ahead of his time. It should be remembered however that he supported General Pershing's policy of allowing black men to participate in the war in Europe.

	23-10-2002 04:16									#145
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Warren Harding is arguably the worst behaved of all the Presidents.

	23-10-2002 04:30									#146
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Truman nuked the dirty Japs because they attacked us first without any provocation

A trade embargo that deprived Japan of a vital supply of oil doesn't count as provocation, eh?

	23-10-2002 04:47									#147
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out of those, lyndon johnson, but you didn't even list a few that i think are worse than him. the roosevelts, and lincoln, and maybe a few others that don't immediately spring to mind.

	23-10-2002 09:52									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I always love it when you bring this up Ned. Just for the benefit of everyone else, please explain again how Hussein and Iraq are like Hitler and Germany, other than both being brutal dictators? Is it all the additional territory Hussein is demanding or simply taking? Is it his retaking of occupied territory? Is it the undeniable proof of rearmament? And then, for further clarification, please equate the lack of will to attack Iraq outright with the handing over territory belonging to other sovereign states. I, for one, don't recall any European leader stating that Hussein should be allowed to have NBC weapons. Seems to me that they just want some proof in the form of weapons inspections before declaring war on a country.

I simply love it when you guys say inspectors, not war.

Why do you think Saddam is willing to allow inspectors back in the first place?

	23-10-2002 10:40									#149
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You know whose missing here? Franklin Pierce. I'd pick him over Buchanan, because he did all theh same things wrong vis-a-vis the looming Civil War and was even less effectual in other areas. Pierce for president who did the most damage; Harding for president who most abused the office.

	23-10-2002 18:51									#150
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo A trade embargo that deprived Japan of a vital supply of oil doesn't count as provocation, eh?

No. We are under no special obligation to trade with anyone.