24-10-2002 07:54									#91
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Hasn't MS been in league with the RIAA lately Ashie?

No, what are you talking about?
MS has actually been removing some "anti-piracy" devices from WinXP Media Center Edition, which has really pissed off RIAA/MPAA...

BTW, Drake, to put the "huge" donation MS made to the Republicans at $600,000US...

What word would you use to describe Bill Gates' donations to charities through the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, currently at $5,501,179,880.

Quit dismissing my arguments as fanboyism and admit you're wrong, Drake.

	24-10-2002 07:56									#92
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I applaud MS for the media center thing, I found that rather surprising. Hopefully it's a sign that the RIAA is loosing steam.
But It seems like MS has been one of few significant technology companies supporting RIAA's various DRM initiatives.

	24-10-2002 07:57									#93
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quote: What world would you use to describe Bill Gates' donations to charities through the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, currently at $5,501,179,880.

If you meant what word I would use, I would have to say "irrelevant". Comparing political and charitable donations is idiotic. I'd expect nothing more from you...

	24-10-2002 07:59									#94
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I applaud MS for the media center thing, I found that rather surprising. Hopefully it's a sign that the RIAA is loosing steam. But It seems like MS has been one of few significant technology companies supporting RIAA's various DRM initiatives.

I wouldn't say they were supporting it. They've added DRM controls into Windows Media Player, but it's totally optional.

They don't force it on anyone, and don't plan to force it on anyone, but they do offer content control as an option.

	24-10-2002 08:01									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: What world would you use to describe Bill Gates' donations to charities through the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, currently at $5,501,179,880. If you meant what word I would use, I would have to say "irrelevant". Comparing political and charitable donations is idiotic. I'd expect nothing more from you...

Dig yourself deeper, Drake.

$600K is a smallass donation. It really is. Politically, charitably, whatever -- it's TINY for a company worth what MS is.

Why can't you admit that Bush told the DOJ to back down because he's in favor of big business? I don't understand...

AOL/Sony/Sun have no doubt surpassed MS' donation of $600K anyway.

I'm really confused about why you keep defending a statement that you should have conceded was wrong a while ago.

	24-10-2002 08:02									#96
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quote: Quit dismissing my arguments as fanboyism and admit you're wrong, Drake. * You have asserted the reason why the case was effectively dropped was because of the "huge" amount of money MS donated to the republicans * MS donated ~$600,000 to the republicans * Bush was opposed to the trial long before he was in office

You may know computers, Ashie, but you don't know jack about politics. The fact that Bush opposed the sitting Democratic president on the MS trial during his campaign doesn't mean that Bush was intent on dropping the case once in office. Without the huge donations from MS, I'll almost guarantee you that the case wouldn't have ended so quickly and painlessly. Don't be so naive.

	24-10-2002 08:09									#97
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http://www.internetwk.com/story/INW20010907S0001

Seems that amount donated was much greater than the amount listed in my previous CNN article.

quote: By the year 2000, computer and Internet companies ranked No. 7 on the list of the biggest industry contributors on the federal level, giving more than $39.7 million, she said. Since 1997, Microsoft has been the industry's biggest contributor. Microsoft nearly tripled its campaign contributions and more than doubled its lobbying expenditures since the antitrust case was filed. During the 1999-2000 election cycle, Microsoft contributed more than $4.7 million in “soft” or unregulated money, political action committee and individual contributions to federal candidates and parties, Bailey said. More than two-thirds of that money went to Republicans.

quote: I'm really confused about why you keep defending a statement that you should have conceded was wrong a while ago.

As much as you may wish that I was wrong on this, it frankly isn't true. I can't expect you to admit to your folly, however; you have to keep your bosses pleased.

	24-10-2002 08:10									#98
	Got spare money?

That's right, Drake, that massive donation of $600K was entirely responsible for Bush dropping the case. Let's CONVENIENTLY ignore that Sun, Sony, Netscape, and others probably all donated ~$600K a piece too, which would no doubt outweigh MS' contribution.

Bush and his administration have always been in favor of big business. They publically opposed the trial before he was in office, they put an end to the chance of a breakup while in office.

You sit here telling me it's entirely because of a $600K donation, despite all of this and despite the fact that the competitors for MS no doubt donated far more.

And you still keep trying to defend the assertion.

Absolutely incredible.

Incase you haven't noticed, the majority of the republicans on here also opposed the MS trial. Do you think they were bought off by MS too? Give me a break.

	24-10-2002 08:10									#99
	Remove this text

I think both you and Drake have some fair points here Ashie. Bush is, undoubtedly pro-big buisness and pro-laissez-faire capitalism. But there is no denying that 600,00, though relatively small, coudln't have influenced him to some degree in regards to the the dropping of the case. Would it have influenced him enough to be significant? I'll let you guys argue about that.

	24-10-2002 08:13									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS...tics/index.html quote: According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Microsoft has contributed $1.1 million dollars in soft money to both major political parties this cycle -- $529,000 to the Democrats, and $607,000 to Republicans. The software giant gave another $700,000 to individual candidates -- and it is those numbers that tell the story behind the company's newfound political activism. Over a million dollars in contributions counts as huge to me. Have any other great ideas on how to change the subject, hotshot?

And how much money did Apple and AOL give to the Democrats and Republicans? Isn't it a little unfair to single out Microsoft for donations when all corporations do it? That is the system, after all. If you don't like that, I would suggest supporting campaign finance reform.

	24-10-2002 08:14									#101
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$600,000 isn't a relatively small amount, Monkspider. While not at the highest levels of contributions, it is still a huge amount. For the tech industry, it is massive. Don't let Asher's bullshit propaganda convince of things that aren't true.

	24-10-2002 08:15									#102
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I agree it isn't chicken scratch, but it isn't on the level of say, Big Music or Big Oil.

	24-10-2002 08:16									#103
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Don't get me wrong, I wish I had 600,000 bucks. But at this juncture, I would happily settle for 600.

	24-10-2002 08:19									#104
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quote: And how much money did Apple and AOL give to the Democrats and Republicans? Isn't it a little unfair to single out Microsoft for donations when all corporations do it? That is the system, after all. If you don't like that, I would suggest supporting campaign finance reform.

It was never my intention to single out Microsoft. I only meant to disprove the idiotic statement Asher made about the antitrust case being ended because someone "up top" thought the whole thing was a ploy led by MS opponents, not because of the huge contributions made by MS after the trial started. Both sides are swimming in dirty money in this whole deal. I'd like to see Asher admit that.

	24-10-2002 08:25									#105
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Drake...wake up, I've admitted countless times that money is flying left and right.

But what it comes down to is MS donated, MS' competitors donated, Bush dismissed the possibility of breaking MS out because he's pro-big business.

Why is this so complicated?

Bush knew that the case against MS was largely unfounded anyway, and it's obvious to most non-Linux zealots following it that the case was a farce from both sides. The competitors struggling to find a way to make it look like MS muscled them out of business, while MS' legal time kept changing tactics.

But in the end, Bush did it because he's in favor of big business -- not because of money.

	24-10-2002 08:31									#106
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quote: But what it comes down to is MS donated, MS' competitors donated, Bush dismissed the possibility of breaking MS out because he's pro-big business.

Bullshit. You didn't even read the article I posted, did you? Bush let the case die for economic and political reasons, not because of his ideological views on the role of business. Show some political savvy for god's sake! Politics trump ideals every time inside the Beltway.

	24-10-2002 08:36									#107
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay, Drake, by your logic Bill Gates could donate $500M to Bush for Bush to declare war on China, Russia, the UK, and Canada all for shits and giggles.

Bush was opposed to the trial before, and put an end to it during his reign. You also keep conveniently forgetting the competitor's donations.

Oh well, Drake, I'm through with you.

Bush isn't really pro-business, he did it because MS gave him some money. We'll just toss out the idea that the competitors donated even more collectively for a while so we can live in la-la land with our hands stretched far down our pants and a big smile on our face.

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

	24-10-2002 08:44									#108
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So it remains obvious that you didn't read the article...

What the hell is wrong with me? Why do I even talk to you about MS? I should know better; you're a god damn fanboy. It's like trying to convince Fez that Franco was really a piece of ****. Infuriating and utterly pointless.



Good night.

	24-10-2002 08:46									#109
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Rule #1 of internet forums: "Fanboy" is a word only used when someone wants to dismiss other people's arguments without valid reasons why they're doing it. Especially considering the argument is about Bush and politics, and you still keep dismissing me as an MS fanboy. Can you get any more obvious?

Good night, Drake, I hope you feel more rational in the morning.

(I did read the article, I'm still totally confused about why you think it proves the ONLY reason Bush did it was because he got some donation money like you asserted. But hey, maybe in your world...)

	24-10-2002 08:50									#110
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quote: I did read the article, I'm still totally confused about why you think it proves the ONLY reason Bush did it was because he got some donation money like you asserted. But hey, maybe in your world...)

It said that there were two reasons for Bush's decision: economic considerations and political concerns. It said nothing about Bush's ideological views being a factor, which you seem to think was the real reason for the end of the case. Of course you're always right, so Bush must've done it for ideological reasons, despite what anyone else may think.

quote: Good night, Drake, I hope you feel more rational in the morning.

Very Fez-like quote there. Maybe my analogy is more accurate than I previously believed.

	24-10-2002 08:54									#111
	Put an end to popups!

Everyone's free to their opinion, Drake, but there is no evidence in the world that supports your assertion that Bush did it only for the money. Deal with that already and cut your losses.

And I must say that your posts tonight remind me of Wiglaf.......

	24-10-2002 09:06									#112
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quote: And I must say that your posts tonight remind me of Wiglaf.......

I think my link to CNN is more than enough to disprove that theory...

I WANT A FOX LINK!!!!

	28-10-2002 01:09									#113
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More information on donations:

AOL-TimeWarner (one of the principle backers of the MS anti-trust suit): http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/sum...AOL+Time+Warner

Microsoft: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/sum...=Microsoft+Corp

AOL-TW's donations since 1990: $12,195,822

MS: $9,468,287

What's particularly stunning is the evidence of just how apolitical MS was until the anti-trust suits. Look at the timeline. Compare that to what AOL was spending at the same time, and is it a wonder why this whole case came about?

(It's funny that the American Federation of Teachers donated $15,512,224 since 1990 alone, AT&T's $17.5M)

	28-10-2002 09:57									#114
	Remove this text

Oh, so convenient to ignore facts.

Should I remind you of the 1995 consent decree between the DoJ and MS, and how blatantly MS violated it?

You don't pull wool over our eyes.

	28-10-2002 09:59									#115
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* Asher wonders what UR is talking about, since we were never talking about the consent decree, let alone say that MS didn't violate it.

	28-10-2002 10:01									#116
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For anybody interested, here is a timeline of the MS antitrust case from Washington Post. (Damn lefties frothing at their mouths, eh?)

	28-10-2002 10:02									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Asher * Asher wonders what UR is talking about, since we were never talking about the consent decree, let alone say that MS didn't violate it.

Oh, playing dumb. It doesn't help.

I distinctly recall this:

quote: . . .is it a wonder why this whole case came about?

But thanks for admitting that MS has been flagrantly breaking laws.

	28-10-2002 10:04									#118
	Got spare money?

That reminds me...

quote: March 9 – Sun Microsystems sues rival Microsoft for choking off distribution of it's Java programming language.

Good ol' Sun -- they seem to think that MS should bundle their products with Windows because they say so.

Java was being shipped with Windows until Sun brought litigation upon MS for modifying it slightly. The solution: Don't ship it at all.

Lo and behold Sun bursts into tears crying it's not fair. Tough ****, C# is here to replace Java. Good job Sun.

	28-10-2002 10:05									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Oh, playing dumb. It doesn't help. I distinctly recall this:

And where do you think the consent decree came from, genius?

quote: But thanks for admitting that MS has been flagrantly breaking laws.

I've never once said they hadn't broken any laws. In fact I believe I've mentioned several times things like how they've handled OEM licensing should have been halted long ago.

But that's not the point -- every company and every person breaks the law too.

Have you ever jaywalked?

And I won't go into AOL-TW, since that rapsheet would crash the servers.

	28-10-2002 10:06									#120
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Again, completely ignoring that fact the the court ruled in favour of Sun, and MS had to issue a new JVM.