28-10-2002 10:07									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Again, completely ignoring that fact the the court ruled in favour of Sun, and MS had to issue a new JVM.

Huh?
They had to offer a JVM compliant with Sun's -- they don't have to ship it with Windows.

In fact, it DOESN'T ship with Windows XP. That's what Sun's *****ing about now...did you even read the context of my post at all?

Java doesn't ship with Windows anymore. Now it ships with C# and the .NET CLR instead, which is remarkably like Java but not as poorly implemented.

	28-10-2002 10:08									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And where do you think the consent decree came from, genius?

Because they were breaking laws. You read the timeline, you even quoted from it.

quote: Originally posted by Asher I've never once said they hadn't broken any laws. In fact I believe I've mentioned several times things like how they've handled OEM licensing should have been halted long ago.

So there is no question why MS should be on trial, then.

	28-10-2002 10:10									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Huh? They had to offer a JVM compliant with Sun's -- they don't have to ship it with Windows. In fact, it DOESN'T ship with Windows XP. That's what Sun's *****ing about now...did you even read the context of my post at all?

Sun won the case in 1998. XP started shipping in 2001. Who won?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Java doesn't ship with Windows anymore. Now it ships with C# and the .NET CLR instead, which is remarkably like Java but not as poorly implemented.

Very unbiased opinion, this.

On second thought, are you saying MS's Java is poorly implemented?

Cool.

	28-10-2002 10:11									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Because they were breaking laws. You read the timeline, you even quoted from it.

No, because Netscape/Sun lobbied and said "ohhh they're breaking laws lookie lookie" as they slip them a few million. That's how politics works here, don't you know.

quote: So there is no question why MS should be on trial, then.

Not at all. Except some of the stuff they're on trial for was outrageous, which is why the trial became a farce. Some of the legit issues got torn down because all of MS' competitors jumped on the bandwagon and obfuscated the case to the point where over half of the things being said against MS were false...which weakened the DoJ's case.

	28-10-2002 10:12									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sun won the case in 1998. XP started shipping in 2001. Who won?

I can see you're STILL confused.

I'm not talking about the 1998 case AT ALL. Do you understand?

I'm talking about the timeline part I HIGHLIGHTED (March 2002). Did you read that? I'm talking about the part where Sun seems to think they have a God-given right to have Java shipped with Windows, when they sure as hell don't.

Because of the 1998 case where Sun thought it'd be fun to take MS to court over it, MS' solution was to simply stop shipping Java and develop .NET's CLR. Now Sun is pissing and moaning about how Java isn't being shipped with Windows, and instead .NET is. That's what I'm talking about...please tell me you understand now.

	28-10-2002 10:14									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, because Netscape/Sun lobbied and said "ohhh they're breaking laws lookie lookie" as they slip them a few million. That's how politics works here, don't you know.

Did you read the timeline? The 1995 consent decree wasn't even caused by Netscape filing a complain. MS had no Web browser back then.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Not at all. Except some of the stuff they're on trial for was outrageous, which is why the trial became a farce. Some of the legit issues got torn down because all of MS' competitors jumped on the bandwagon and obfuscated the case to the point where over half of the things being said against MS were false...which weakened the DoJ's case.

A farce? Maybe you are better than the Court of Appeals, then.

	28-10-2002 10:18									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Did you read the timeline? The 1995 consent decree wasn't even caused by Netscape filing a complain. MS had no Web browser back then.

Windows 95 had IE 1.0 integrated.
Plus Netscape was complaining because they knew about MS' plans (MS talked to them).

quote: A farce? Maybe you are better than the Court of Appeals, then.

Tell me what the likely consquences are for this trial...and tell me it's not a farce for all of the taxpayer's dollars and time spent on it.

	28-10-2002 10:20									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I can see you're STILL confused. I'm not talking about the 1998 case AT ALL. Do you understand? I'm talking about the timeline part I HIGHLIGHTED (March 2002). Did you read that? I'm talking about the part where Sun seems to think they have a God-given right to have Java shipped with Windows, when they sure as hell don't.

Oh, I don't know, they might. Why else is MS providng a JVM? What is the point of providing a JVM and not ship it? This sort of mentality just boggles the mind.

	28-10-2002 10:22									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Oh, I don't know, they might. Why else is MS providng a JVM? What is the point of providing a JVM and not ship it? This sort of mentality just boggles the mind.

It discourages the use. The JVM is available for download because many websites still use Java.

But because it's not standard on Windows, it makes developing for Java a bit more complex since you need to make sure they've got the VM you require installed.

You don't have much up there in the reasoning department, do you.

	28-10-2002 10:32									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Windows 95 had IE 1.0 integrated.

Not the versions I was using. Maybe you had some special version through the MS fanboy club.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Plus Netscape was complaining because they knew about MS' plans (MS talked to them).

You can click on a date to get a detailed story.

quote: The Justice Department announced yesterday that giant Microsoft Corp. has agreed to end practices that the government said choked off competition and inflated prices in the personal computer software industry. The deal came after a contentious 4 1/2-year investigation. Microsoft said it would drop allegedly anti-competitive licensing practices for its MS-DOS and Windows operating system software, which is used in 80 percent of personal computers sold today. The Justice Department contends these practices pushed computer makers to favor Microsoft's products. "There's no question they had locked up the market with these practices, completely unfairly," said Anne K. Bingaman, assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's antitrust division. "That will end." Bingaman predicted that consumers will have more choice and lower prices in operating systems, which control the basic functions of a personal computer. Microsoft general counsel William Neukom described the agreement as a "good result" for the company. "We have always said, and continue to say, that we have not done anything wrong," he said. "We're settling because we think its time to put this investigation behind us and proceed with a full focus on our business." The deal was signed late Friday after intensive final negotiations by telephone between Bingaman and Bill Gates, the 38-year-old entrepreneur who founded the company in 1975 and built the Redmond, Wash.-based company into the world's largest software company. The Justice Department was prepared to begin a court battle Friday against Microsoft if the negotiations failed, Bingaman said. The government investigation into Microsoft's business practices was started by the Federal Trade Commission in late 1989.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Tell me what the likely consquences are for this trial...and tell me it's not a farce for all of the taxpayer's dollars and time spent on it.

Tell me why this is the case.

In 1994, I bought a top-end PC. Windows 95 costed me 1/10 of the cost of hardware. In 2002, I bought a top-end PC. Windows XP Pro would cost me 1/2 of the cost of hardware.

Clearly, the MS monopoly has been hurting consumers.

	28-10-2002 10:36									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It discourages the use. The JVM is available for download because many websites still use Java. But because it's not standard on Windows, it makes developing for Java a bit more complex since you need to make sure they've got the VM you require installed. You don't have much up there in the reasoning department, do you.

I must confess that I am not steeped in MS Reasoning^TM.

If one does not need it, the presence of the JVM will not encourage use. If one needs it, the absence of the JVM just makes one annoyed.

	28-10-2002 10:37									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger In 1994, I bought a top-end PC. Windows 95 costed me 1/10 of the cost of hardware. In 2002, I bought a top-end PC. Windows XP Pro would cost me 1/2 of the cost of hardware. Clearly, the MS monopoly has been hurting consumers.

In 1994 I bought a top-end PC and Windows 95 cost me nothing because it came with 3.1 and I used a Windows 95 CD that came from a friends' top-end PC he bought a few months later.

	28-10-2002 10:38									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not the versions I was using. Maybe you had some special version through the MS fanboy club.

http://www.nwnetworks.com/iehistory.htm
It actually came in Win95 Plus in early 1995...

quote: Tell me why this is the case. In 1994, I bought a top-end PC. Windows 95 costed me 1/10 of the cost of hardware. In 2002, I bought a top-end PC. Windows XP Pro would cost me 1/2 of the cost of hardware. Clearly, the MS monopoly has been hurting consumers.

I have no idea, that's anecdotal evidence and I don't share the same experience.

Come back and play when you've got some numbers.

	28-10-2002 10:39									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I must confess that I am not steeped in MS ReasoningTM. If one does not need it, the presence of the JVM will not encourage use. If one needs it, the absence of the JVM just makes one annoyed.

Well, obviously Sun also disagrees with you because they thought it was worthy to spend millions to challenge in court.

That's okay, UR, we always need people like you to run our networks for us. Don't think too hard.

	28-10-2002 11:30									#135
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lordy, this has got to be the most exciting thread ever… arguing over what the best email addy is… gawd

	28-10-2002 11:31									#136
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You've made a wrong turn somewhere, monolith.

	28-10-2002 11:38									#137
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At albequerqe, methinks… I should be heading back to vermont I guess

	28-10-2002 13:40									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Well, obviously Sun also disagrees with you because they thought it was worthy to spend millions to challenge in court.

No, Sun disagrees with MS, which means they agree with me.

quote: Originally posted by Asher That's okay, UR, we always need people like you to run our networks for us. Don't think too hard.

Actually, our network is shifting to an OSS one.

	28-10-2002 15:28									#139
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What is outlook?

	28-10-2002 15:30									#140
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A virus transferrance device methinks.

	28-10-2002 15:37									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse In 1994 I bought a top-end PC and Windows 95 cost me nothing because it came with 3.1 and I used a Windows 95 CD that came from a friends' top-end PC he bought a few months later.

Gentlemen, here we have an excellent reason as to why everyone uses Windows.

	28-10-2002 16:13									#142
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I use Windows only for games. That's the only strength of it. It's a good desktop environment, just don't let it go to the internet in particular, or to any network at all. Microsoft's networking implementations are just too bad. We have a Win2000 based network at work, it needs a full time administrator (thank God not me) and still runs lousy. Before I left my old company 2-1/2 years ago and moved to another place, I set up a network of similar size, based on a Linux server. That's by far not the best, but one of the cheapest solution (should have made it OpenBSD... that's what I regret). It still runs without any administration and far from one HD failure and rare restarts never caused problems.

	28-10-2002 16:15									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns A virus transferrance device methinks.

Plus incubation device

	28-10-2002 17:02									#144
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Does someone know the prices of Windows 95 to XP at or around their launch dates? Then we can see if MS really boosted the price. I won't be surprised if they did, though I'm not sure since I never purchased windows myself (all free copies, or illegal copies)

	28-10-2002 20:44									#145
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IIRC, their prices are roughly the same. Meanwhile, the price of hardware has been dropping like a rock.

	28-10-2002 21:30									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No, Sun disagrees with MS, which means they agree with me.

How do you figure? You said that it doesn't make any sense (implying it makes no difference) to not ship the JVM but still make it available for download.

Sun seems to think it makes a big difference, seeing as they're spending millions of dollars trying to get the gov't to force MS to ship it.

quote: IIRC, their prices are roughly the same.

Bingo -- there's your answer.
In order to prove that a company is abusing its powers to raise prices -- you must first prove that they raise prices.

You just admitted yourself prices have been unchanged. The cost of the hardware is totally irrelevant, MS doesn't make computers...