12-11-2002 05:39									#271
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quote: ala the split championship with Nebraska which to my mind was a farce

God forbid that two undefeated teams that can't play each other split the national title...

	12-11-2002 05:51									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten God forbid that two undefeated teams that can't play each other split the national title...

See... another reason why more than just two teams should be invited to the national championship

	12-11-2002 05:55									#273
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "My objection was to the statemement made by DanS saying that PSU played a wussie schedule until they got into the Big 10. This is not true as the period of time inthe mid 80's speaks to the strength of schedule they put together as an independent." OK, there was a decade or so there where they didn't play a wussie schedule and weren't in the Big 10.

But whats more is it was the preceeding years prior to their entrance into the Big 10. They had established themselves and did not need the Big 10 in order to have a decent schedule.

	12-11-2002 05:56									#274
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quote: See... another reason why more than just two teams should be invited to the national championship

Only if there are more than two undefeated teams with real schedules. When was the last time that happened? *looks in JohnT's direction*

It isn't happening this year, at any rate, so I don't see why a playoff is necessary...

	12-11-2002 06:00									#275
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Splite championship year Penn State and Nebraska circa 1996 IIRC. It also precipitated the whole BCS thing. A compromise to prevent 2 such teams from not meeting. It does not however address 3 or more undefeated deserving teams from having a shot.

And as to teh question of split championships it is a crock and speaks to the premise of the whole post and is why I whole heartedly agree with a playoff system. Amount of teasm invited to the post season playoff is up for interpreatationbut I see no real reason why it couldn't be around 8ish and still have the top most tier of teams represented.

	12-11-2002 06:07									#276
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quote: Splite championship year Penn State and Nebraska circa 1996 IIRC.

1994

It precipitated the Bowl Alliance, which still didn't include the Rose Bowl. Nebraska split the title again in 1997 with Michigan. The BCS went into effect after the Bowl Alliance ended, finally bringing the Big Ten into line with the rest of college football. And we've all seen how well they've done since then...

	12-11-2002 06:08									#277
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See I knew it was a bad thing PSU went into the Big 10.

	12-11-2002 06:20									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Splite championship year Penn State and Nebraska circa 1996 IIRC. 1994 It precipitated the Bowl Alliance, which still didn't include the Rose Bowl. Nebraska split the title again in 1997 with Michigan. The BCS went into effect after the Bowl Alliance ended, finally bringing the Big Ten into line with the rest of college football. And we've all seen how well they've done since then...

The Big Ten in line with the rest of college football?

There are more teams not in BCS conferences than there are teams that are in them.

ACK!

	12-11-2002 06:23									#279
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quote: There are more teams not in BCS conferences than there are teams that are in them.

But none of them matter...

	12-11-2002 06:26									#280
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But, Duke, Temple, Baylor, Rutgers, Kansas and North Carolina do?

Most of these teams, except UNC have been, and will continue to be crap.

ACK!

	12-11-2002 06:30									#281
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quote: But, Duke, Temple, Baylor, Rutgers, Kansas and North Carolina do?

What makes you think that these teams benefit from the BCS? BYU has a hell of a lot better chance of going to a BCS bowl than Kansas does. If BYU goes undefeated and has a good enough strength of schedule they could conceivably go to the national title game. Kansas has almost no chance of going to a BCS game because they suck and play in the best conference in college football.

	12-11-2002 06:50									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: See... another reason why more than just two teams should be invited to the national championship Only if there are more than two undefeated teams with real schedules. When was the last time that happened? *looks in JohnT's direction* It isn't happening this year, at any rate, so I don't see why a playoff is necessary...

Define "real schedule"?

What I'll do is give a list, by year, of the teams with no losses and their schedule strengths for the past 35 years (to 1967). I'll only list those years with multiple unbeatens, btw. Associated Press national champs are starred (*), UPI national champs are... whatever this (#) symbol is. UPI stopped doing a poll in 1995. I also have the ESPN poll results but I can't be arsed to fit them in.

1999
*FSU, 9
Marshall, 107

1998
*Tenn., 22
Tulane, 100

1997
*Michigan, 36
Nebraska, 42

1995
#*Nebraska, 24
Toledo, 97

1994
PSU, 14
#*Nebraska, 49
Texas A&M, 80

1992
#*Alabama, 22
Michigan, 50

1991
#Washington, 17
*Miami, 29

1987
#*Miami, 20
Syracuse, 41

1979
USC, 18
#*Alabama, 64
Central Michigan, 122

1976
#*Pittsburgh, 60
Rutgers, 123

1975
Arizona St., 71
Arkansas St., 121
(11-1-0 Oklahoma won the national championship for both polls - their schedule was ranked #2, behind Missouri (6-5-0))

1974
*Oklahoma, 24
Miami Oh, 76
(10-1-1 USC won the UPI poll, with a schedule strength of 41)

1973
OK, 3
*Notre Dame, 34
Ohio State, 38
Michigan, 43
Penn State, 54
Miami Oh, 75
(11-1-0 Alabama won the UPI poll, schedule strength of 21)

1971
#*Nebraska, 14
Toledo, 103

1970
*Nebraska, 22
Arizona St., 69
Toledo, 111
(10-1-0 Texas won the UPI poll, with a schedule strength of 15)

1969
USC, 7
Penn State, 55
#*Texas, 59
San Diego St., 83
Toledo, 102 (I missed them in my earlier post, so 1969 also had 5 undefeated teams. Sorry Dan, Imran. Toledo went 3 straight years without losing a game! )

1968
#*Ohio State, 31
Penn State, 59
Harvard, 118
Yale, 119

So, only 3 teams in the last 35 years were unbeaten with top-10 schedule strengths: FSU in 1999, OK in 1973, and USC in 1969. Interestingly, only FSU won the title. I'm surprised at the number of times that UPI ranked a beaten team over an unbeaten team...

In short, there hasn't been a single time in which two teams with top-25 schedules have won all their games. The closest is 1991.

The lesson here is simple: don't load up your schedule with tough opponents, but don't load them with patsies either.

Also, I wouldn't crack too hard on Baylor, Kansas, Duke, etc. They've had their moments of glory...

	12-11-2002 07:03									#283
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quote: I'm going to assume it's a top-25 in terms of strength, so here goes...

I'd probably have gone with top-50 in strength. You did all the work, however, so I'll bow to your will...

Anyway, I'd define a "real" schedule as including at least one or two games against a high quality opponent. Not an exact definition, but it works in practice. For example, Fresno State was worthy of a title shot last year if they had gone undefeated. Bowling Green wouldn't have been this year. All I want is for teams to play a couple tough games in order to prove themselves.

	12-11-2002 08:21									#284
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Damn Damn Damn,

Seeing the above just relights my indignation. How could I forget it was 1994 (not 1996)? Strength of schedule at 14 for PSU and Nebraska at 49 still gets the nod. It still absolutely pisses me off.

	12-11-2002 08:32									#285
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Nebraska did beat Miami in the Orange Bowl, however. I don't remember who Penn State played in their bowl that year, but it wasn't nearly as good a team.

	12-11-2002 08:34									#286
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quote: Also, I wouldn't crack too hard on Baylor, Kansas, Duke, etc. They've had their moments of glory...

... in basketball.

	12-11-2002 08:39									#287
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It was Oregan or Oregan state can't remember for sure and We (PSU) were locked into the game because of the stupid Rose Bowl Pac10 vs. Big 10 match up.

Nebraska did a typical run up the score move (while PSU struggled in 1 game) about 2-3 weeks left in the season and for some reason they jumped PSU in the polls (PSU was leading inthe polls for the entire season. Funny, but Nebraska narrowly won over a weak opponnent whilst PSU trounced a quality opponent the next week but the favor was not returned as presumably the Orange bowl was already slated to be the championship game 1 vs 3)

	12-11-2002 08:47									#288
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Duke went 11-0 in 1989, Baylor was a consistant top-20 team for many years up until 1986, Kansas was top-25 in 1992, 1973, 1968 (top-10!), 1961, 1960, 1951, and 1947. Not exactly perennial, but still - moments of glory.

	12-11-2002 08:47									#289
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The title needed to be split. I wish NU and PSU could've played, because Nebraska would've kicked Penn State's ass. Since they couldn't play, however, it was only fair to split the title. Thank god the BCS has saved us from that type of crap. All hail the BCS!

	12-11-2002 08:50									#290
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quote: Duke went 11-0 in 1989, Baylor was a consistant top-20 team for many years up until 1986, Kansas was top-25 in 1992, 1973, 1968 (top-10!), 1961, 1960, 1951, and 1947. Not exactly perennial, but still - moments of glory.

I was just kidding, JohnT. While those teams seem to have been terrible forever, I know that they have had success in the past.

	12-11-2002 08:51									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The title needed to be split. I wish NU and PSU could've played, because Nebraska would've kicked Penn State's ass. Since they couldn't play, however, it was only fair to split the title. Thank god the BCS has saved us from that type of crap. All hail the BCS!

I would have been all for it. Nebraska was over rated and Osborne was a joke who by being a constant bridesmaid in years past finally got the pity vote of the sportswriters and coaches to give him a championship.

Shame it was undeserved.

	12-11-2002 09:02									#292
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I doubt that, Ogie. (About Osbourne, that is.) His 1995 team was a freakin' machine that just steamrolled through their season, culminating in a 63-17 (or so) butt-whuppin of Steve Spurrier's Florida team (essentially the same team that won the championship in 1996).

	12-11-2002 09:05									#293
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quote: I would have been all for it. Nebraska was over rated and Osborne was a joke who by being a constant bridesmaid in years past finally got the pity vote of the sportswriters and coaches to give him a championship. Shame it was undeserved.

Yes, Osborne was a hack and Nebraska was a terrible team. They missed out on the national title in 1993 by two points, won it in 1994 by beating the best team available and then went on to win a second straight title in 1995 by the paltry margin of 62-24. What an undeserving team...

	12-11-2002 09:08									#294
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I'll not argue that he could run up the score. Which does not to my mind show anything about the quality of a team (as once you've broken the will of a team it's easy to dogpile) only the character of the coach and coaching staff.

I do however seriously doubt he could have beaten the Lions had they matched up that year.

But then again thank to the completely F*****d up polling system (and now a slightly less screwed up BCS) we'll never know will we. Which brings me again back to the premise of the post.

A playoff is essential!!!!

	12-11-2002 09:13									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yes, Osborne was a hack and Nebraska was a terrible team. They missed out on the national title in 1993 by two points, won it in 1994 by beating the best team available and then went on to win a second straight title in 1995 by the paltry margin of 62-24. What an undeserving team...

BooHoo for Osborne. Missed out on the prize in '93 by 2 points. Me thinks a couple of hacks out there felt guilty and decided to gift him the championship in '94.

One thing, I do give at least some credence to in this otherwise useless BCS rating system, at least now they have taken away the useless margin of victory BS the hack AP and coaches used to rely on.

	12-11-2002 09:23									#296
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Deleted - The forum erased my post and I don't feel like retyping it.

	12-11-2002 22:53									#297
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quote: 1976 #*Pittsburgh, 60 Rutgers, 123

We got gypped!

	12-11-2002 23:39									#298
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You tell 'em Imran

	13-11-2002 00:24									#299
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"Me thinks a couple of hacks out there felt guilty and decided to gift him the championship in '94."

You're likely right... I'm sure that for many of the pollsters, the thought went like this:

"Well, Paterno's got two N. Championships and Osbourne doesn't have any. Also, Osbourne is likely to retire soon, while Joe Pa doesn't look like he's going anywhere. And you gotta respect a man who went for two in 1983 and didn't settle for a tie, even though he probably would've won the championship had he gotten that tie. Nebraska it is!"

Then Nebraska goes and wins the next 13 games and the championship outright the very next year, so I don't think the pollsters lost much sleep over their choice.

	13-11-2002 01:08									#300
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JohnT,

That was my take on it as well.

Pollsters in '95 had a no brainer decision. In '94 it wasn't so cut and dried. I submit it would've been a heck of a game as PSU has always schemed/defended exceptionally well against the option. Linebacker U always played tough against the predominantly runnning teams of the south/midwest. I submit it would not have been the run away you and Drake suggest as PSU had seen its share of Nebraska in years past and certainly knew how to match up against it. (Osborne really wasn't a very imaginitve coach but for the record neither is Paterno).

Regardless the flip flop in the late polls angered every PSU fan and sentiment aside should not have happened (especially with 20/20 hindsight of the '95 results)

'94 represented prolly the most balanced/potent offense seen at PSU with a good QB (Collins) and a phenom running back (in Kijana Carter). I still think PSU would have won 31-24.