14-11-2002 05:36									#331
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"A 4 to 8 team tournament doesn't have to include 2 loss teams, as suggested in earlier proposals..."

Yes, the way you proposed was just to remove the 2-loss teams from the mix, regardless of whether or not the 2-loss team was more deserving than the 1-loss team.

Note that in my view, a 2-loss team is never deserving, but that some 1-loss teams may not be deserving either. This lack of just desserts comes straight from the hide of the undefeated #1 seeded team.

	14-11-2002 05:36									#332
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He's lucky he didn't try to tackle Lawrence Philips. He probably wouldn't have lived to tell the tale.

	14-11-2002 05:38									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Drake: But why should any one-loss team deserve a chance over the others? It's almost impossible to determine which one-loss team is the best team, especially since most of them don't play each other...

sounds like a call for the playoff system!

	14-11-2002 05:41									#334
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 sounds like a call for the playoff system!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Fine, have your playoff, but only for one-loss teams. They can fight it out so you can find out which team is the most "deserving". Then the winner of that tourney can play the undefeated team who actually earned their title shot. And if there are two undefeated teams, then too bad. No chance for the one-loss teams.

	14-11-2002 05:51									#335
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It's a good thing Miami won last year. Solved the entire problem. Really, that win bailed out the BCS supporters. Miami loses - and Oregon has a real beef if Nebraska is awarded the title. For that matter, all the one loss teams have a beef, even Miami, had they lost a close one to Nebraska.

Bottom line is, the BCS folks can't expect things to work out that way EVERY year, even if they work out that way MOST years. Thus, the need for a playoff.

	14-11-2002 05:59									#336
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quote: Bottom line is, the BCS folks can't expect things to work out that way EVERY year, even if they work out that way MOST years. Thus, the need for a playoff.

Last season was the most insane thing that I have ever seen. After watching Nebraska get beat by Colorado, I thought that there was zero chance of Nebraska making the title game. It took a completely unbelievable and improbable series of events to bring that around. If the BCS weathered last year, I'm pretty sure it can handle almost every season you can throw at it.

Not that the BCS doesn't need to be changed and perfected. It does. But it doesn't need to be replaced, especially with a playoff that would ruin college football.

	14-11-2002 06:16									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Not that the BCS doesn't need to be changed and perfected. It does. But it doesn't need to be replaced, especially with a playoff that would ruin college football.

The BCS is what ruins college football. After a full slate of game fought on the field of battle, some computer picks only two teams to via for the championship, regardless of how many teams that deserve a chance there are...

	14-11-2002 06:21									#338
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"regardless of how many teams that deserve a chance there are..."

A playoff would not solve this. It would just widen the circle of those undeserving getting a shot at the title. Doesn't matter whether it's fixed at two teams getting a shot or 8 or 16, etc.

	14-11-2002 06:21									#339
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Determining the contenders for the national title by subjective means has always been a part of college football. And, as DanS just pointed out, it will continue to be even if a playoff is created.

Some people are so concerned about making college football "right" that they have forgotten what makes college football fun...

	14-11-2002 06:23									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Last season was the most insane thing that I have ever seen. After watching Nebraska get beat by Colorado, I thought that there was zero chance of Nebraska making the title game. It took a completely unbelievable and improbable series of events to bring that around. If the BCS weathered last year, I'm pretty sure it can handle almost every season you can throw at it.

I agree, last year was insane, but the key is, the ending turned out correctly. Miami should have been champion (Oregon has a case that they could have beaten Miami, but not a strong one), and wound up champion, saving the BCS's bacon.

If Nebraska had won, OTOH, that would be something I don't believe the BCS could have weathered as successfully. So, I'm not so sure the BCS can handle anything that's thrown at it.

IMO, nobody cares who winds up #2 in the BCS, so long as the final #1 team is 'indisputably' deserving of that honour.

	14-11-2002 06:29									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Determining the contenders for the national title by subjective means has always been a part of college football. And, as DanS just pointed out, it will continue to be even if a playoff is created.

Just because it's always been done that way doesn't make it right. And yes, determinations will still have to be made even with a playoff system. But by allowing more than just two teams, it will be a fairer system. With the BCS, we have to "hope" it comes out right. With a playoff, that wouldn't be a problem.

And as far as fun... that's your opinion. I personally think an 8 team playoff would be FAR more fun

	14-11-2002 06:33									#342
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quote: I personally think an 8 team playoff would be FAR more fun

Yes, a playoff would be fun. Too bad that the regular season wouldn't be anymore...

	14-11-2002 06:35									#343
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Ming, a playoff would only be trading known unfairness to eliminate potential unfairness.

In any kind of playoff system this year, Notre Dame would probably have a second shot at the national title. But Notre Dame shouldn't get that second shot. It would be unfair for Ohio State.

The potential unfairness is if an undefeated team that everybody thinks deserves a shot doesn't get one. That's always been the strongest argument against the 2-team bowl playoff that we've had.

	14-11-2002 06:37									#344
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And if Miami and OSU both lose before the season ends?

Then what

And I disagree with your first statement. It wouldn't be unfair if their were 3 undefeated teams now would it

added later... NOT FAIR, you added that last paragraph AFTER you posted

	14-11-2002 06:41									#345
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"Then what"

Unless a whole lot of losing goes on among the other once beatens, Notre Dame doesn't deserve a second title shot.

"It wouldn't be unfair if their were 3 undefeated teams now would it"

Yes, because you would be giving 1 other team (or 5, or 13) a second (or third) undeserved shot at the national title. This would be unfair for the two strongest unbeatens.

"added later... NOT FAIR, you added that last paragraph AFTER you posted"



DanS is allowed his DanSes.

	14-11-2002 06:46									#346
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And when did I mention ND... I personally hope they never get a chance at a title game ever again

But sorry... not giving an quality unbeaten team a chance at the championship is just bull*hit.

And if there are no unbeaten teams, then it's even worse.

Again.. with the BCS, you have to HOPE things work out right... and that's pretty crappy when hope is part of the equation

	14-11-2002 06:49									#347
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quote: But sorry... not giving an quality unbeaten team a chance at the championship is just bull*hit.

There are far better ways to solve this problem than creating a playoff.

The simplest would just be to let the three unbeatens play in their bowls and then play one more game if two unbeatens are still left. Solves the problem without giving a whole mess of beaten teams an undeserved shot at the title.

	14-11-2002 06:50									#348
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"Again.. with the BCS, you have to HOPE things work out right..."

With a playoff, you KNOW that it will be partially unfair, and potentially hugely unfair to one or more of the top teams.

	14-11-2002 06:53									#349
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A playoff isn't unfair. If that UNBEATEN team is so good, they will win. If they don't win, they don't deserve to be national champion. It will be determinded on the field, the way it's supposed to be done. Having only 8 teams in the playoffs won't invalidate the entire season. Heck, it will make it more exciting. It's not like we are talking about pro sports where half the teams make the playoffs

	14-11-2002 06:58									#350
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quote: A playoff isn't unfair.

It is unfair to unbeaten teams. They work hard all season to maintain a perfect record only to be matched up in the postseason against teams that didn't achieve the same thing. What's the point of going unbeaten? Shouldn't we reward teams who achieve perfection? Or is the regular season just a warmup for the postseason?

	14-11-2002 06:58									#351
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In an 8-team playoff, Notre Dame (who lost to a team with one win or whatever) could win the national title, while a previously unbeaten #1 team that lost to the #4 team could end up losing the title.

It just ain't right.

	14-11-2002 07:01									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Ming A playoff isn't unfair. If that UNBEATEN team is so good, they will win. If they don't win, they don't deserve to be national champion. It will be determinded on the field, the way it's supposed to be done. Having only 8 teams in the playoffs won't invalidate the entire season. Heck, it will make it more exciting. It's not like we are talking about pro sports where half the teams make the playoffs

*nods*

I'd support any system that would require teams to prove themselves before being named champion. If that means an 8 (or 4) team playoff of the unbeatens and the top ranked 1-loss teams, so be it. If it means playing another game in mid January if 2 teams are virtually dead even in the polls on January 4, so be it. I don't really care if it's 'unfair' to the teams that are undefeated - what I do care about is not having a college football season end with unanswered questions as to who's the champion.

	14-11-2002 07:04									#353
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Well Drake, using your logic, if only one major team goes undefeated, there is no need for a championship game. Just crown them and be done with it...

Even the BCS is totally as unfair as an 8 team playoff.
Asking the undefeated team to play a one loss team is just as bad

Again... to be a national champion. You have to win. Asking a team to win a 8 team playoff isn't unfair, it's just making you prove you are the best. And if you lose, you aren't the best

	14-11-2002 07:17									#354
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quote: Well Drake, using your logic, if only one major team goes undefeated, there is no need for a championship game. Just crown them and be done with it...

I'd actually support this, except for one glaring flaw. If you did it this way, teams like Florida State and Miami would just eliminate their tough non-conference schedules and try to go undefeated in the ACC or Big East every year. You could still make this plan work, but you would have to have a strength of schedule requirement that must be met to be champion.

I think it's just easier to stick with the current system, though. It is a little unfair to make an undefeated team play a one-loss team for the title, but I don't really care. They're going to play a bowl game anyway, so it might as well be against the best opponent you can find.

At any rate, I'm not nearly as anal retentive about "fairness" as you are...

	14-11-2002 07:21									#355
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Here's my plan.

100 team playoff system. The whole season could be the playoffs.

	14-11-2002 07:32									#356
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quote: 100 team playoff system. The whole season could be the playoffs.

But what about the twenty-something D-I teams who would be left out of the tourney? Don't they deserve an equal shot at the title? Your plan wouldn't be faaaiiirrr! [/whine]

	14-11-2002 07:35									#357
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team like my hometown team of UNLV suck and have no legitimate shot at winning any games

	14-11-2002 09:44									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten He's lucky he didn't try to tackle Lawrence Philips. He probably wouldn't have lived to tell the tale.

Unless the guy was a woman and Lawrence had a stairwell nearby to drag him down, I think he had nothing to fear. Phillips was a complete non-entity in the NFL.

	14-11-2002 09:52									#359
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I also don't understand Drakes adherence to the BCS crap.

I can't think of one sport other than collegiate level football where a playoff is not used to decide championships.

The argument BCS is good enough as is is absolute crap.

Just like his statement the BCS rating system is not used to establish champions. It is however good enough to decide the two contenders tho'. What a load of crap. When I suggested PSU should have won the championship in '94 based upon this supposed bastion of impartial objectivity it wasn't a good enough yardstick. But it apparently is good enough to lock down the 2 best teams. I find that double standard logic flawed at best.

BCS is not a good predictor nor are polls of the previous bcs era. The only means to decide is the right way on the field of honor via playoffs.

	14-11-2002 09:53									#360
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quote: Phillips was a complete non-entity in the NFL.

He's the best running back in the CFL right now and the best running back in NFL Europe history. His personal problems caused him to wash out in the NFL, not a lack of talent.

He's one scary mofo, both on the field and off...