29-10-2002 01:45									#121
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I kind of like Ming's idea. A playoff that doesn't make the regular season irrelevant...

Interesting.

	29-10-2002 01:48									#122
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That's all I want... a chance for all those that have proved themselves on the field during the regular season to have a chance for it. The current system doesn't allow that. There is going to be an undefeated team this year who won't get that chance... and I think that sucks. (now after saying that, watch all those teams lose a game)

	29-10-2002 01:50									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I guess you don't find the prospect of a two or even three loss team winning the national title to be as distasteful as I do...

I would find that distasteful also. But if you set a rule that all 8 teams selected can't have more than 1 lose. Then the national champion would not have more loses than any other team in the field.


Never mind, didn't see all the other posts stating the same thing.
started writing before a meeting then came back.

RAH

	29-10-2002 02:39									#124
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Scary its like they share the same mind or are twins or something.

	29-10-2002 02:45									#125
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A couple points here:

Any team that goes undefeated did as good as they possibly could. For that team not to have a shot at the National Championship, because of percieved schedule strength or how sportwriters/coaches view them is ridiculous. Why even bother playing the season if it is determined ahead of time you can't be the champion.

Schedule Strength: To use this is a copout. If you're Bowling Green, see how successful you are at scheduling Michigan in a home and away series. They won't do it.

Polls: It reminds me of institutionalized racism; A group of people decides another group is not worthy, not based on objective standards of performance but on prejudicial feelings about their relative worth and the relative worth of their peers.

Who's to say Bowling Green doesn't have the best team in the country until someone beats them. (I personally don't think they are BUT I also thought the St Louis Rams would beat the Oakland Raiders in the Super Bowl last year. I doubt the Patriots would have been ranked in the top 10 last year in pre-playoff polls.)

I would make one modification to your system. Instead of 12 teams I would do 16. Both methods requires 4 weeks of playoffs but a 12 team playoff would allow certain teams a bye which again would lead to an unequal format. The controversy of 2 conference champions with same record, one seeded 8th (only needs 3 wins to win it all) and one seeded 9th (needs 4 wins to win it all) serves no purpose. Plus 16 teams would allow more to participate.

As for people that complain about too many games, I have a simple question. Who said ending the season and then taking 4 weeks off before the title game is preferable to playing a playoff during that off period? (i.e. the season wouldn't be any longer, there just wouldn't be a 4 week bye) Furthermore, the number of extra games would be minimal (4 teams would play 1 extra game 2 teams would play 2 extra games and 2 teams would play 3 extra games)

16 teams would address the inevetible split ups of conferences that would take place (big 12, sec and others would certainly split into conferences instead of divisions to guarantee a spot)

16 teams would leave more room for error. With only 1 wild card team, 1 loss could still very well knock you out. Without the instant replay rule in college, there would be too high of a risk of a gross error robbing a worthy team from participating. (Anyone remember when Colorado won the National Championship because they scored a touchdown on 5th down)

Plus with 12 teams, as unlikely as it sounds, an undefeated team could still miss the playoffs. Suppose 2 independents went undefeated or an independent and 2 teams from the same conference went undefeated.

As for how to pick the 7 non-conference champions. I would have a committee (yuck) with a representative of each conference and 1 independent choose them.

Now if it seems like I have a bias to small schools who "don't deserve" to go to the big dance you're wrong. I went to Michigan State and the rest of my family went to Michigan. Since they are in the Big 10 they always have a shot.

	29-10-2002 02:56									#126
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Good show. My side is doing better than I thought. 25% of the vote.

	29-10-2002 02:59									#127
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but heading down

	29-10-2002 03:07									#128
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I fully expect to have about 5% of the vote, once/if ND leapfrogs Miami in the BCS.

	29-10-2002 03:45									#129
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Interesting arguments for both sides Of course, the undefeated team issue will likely be moot - I expect at least 4 of NC, Ok, Mia, VT, Ga and ND to lose before Xmas. It's funny how that always seems to happen.

How does this sound:

8 team playoff. All 1-A undefeated teams qualify (it's quite unlikely that there'll be 8 of those), plus the top teams in that aren't already qualified.

You'll probably have at LEAST the top 5 or 6 poll teams in this system, plus 2 or 3 undefeated small conference teams.

Seed the teams by poll ranking. OK, MAC champ, you feel that you belong? Oklahoma or Miami will be a good test of that.

Play 7 games, elimination, crown a playoff winner.

Better?

The bottom line is money, as many have said. This system ensures that there will be 7 big money games and that the regular season is an issue. If you don't make the playoff, you should have won all your games. I don't see many 2-loss teams getting in this way, unless they have very tough schedules.

Scheduling, incidentally, can be a bit of a crapshoot. I would have thought in August that Miami had a killer schedule with Fla, Fla State, Tennessee and VT. Who knew that the first 3 would all have off years this year? Despite best efforts, a schedule that looks easy can turn out hard, and vice versa.

One problem for the purists: Teams can't realistically be expected to play more than once a week. The playoff will have to start around Xmas, or else finish around the time of the NFL conference title games. And either way, you won't see all the big games within a 4 day window around New Years, the way we do now. I'll miss that.

	29-10-2002 04:19									#130
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I'd like to see a slightly larger playoff of 16 teams (11 conferences + 5 wildcards.) Notre Dame and the other indies would have to go for one of the wild card spots. I just like rewarding conference champions--that's one part of the existing system I think is worthwhile.

	29-10-2002 04:41									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith This sounds like a good proposal. Need to cut back the number of regular season games back to 11 period. And no conference championship games.

I think the should have conference championship games, that way we have an extra 11 teams who could win the national title.


ACK!

	29-10-2002 04:41									#132
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I hear you re: conference champions, but what about those that are 8-3? I wouldn't support those teams being there, especially if it's not a major conference.

Plus, 16 teams means 4 weeks of playoffs. That's too much for me. We're getting to the point where just about anyone who's half decent, makes the playoff (hello, NHL)

	29-10-2002 04:45									#133
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I think that 8 teams is more than enough, and would only add three games for the two teams that go to the championship. I don't think there are 16 teams that really can claim that they are the best.

	29-10-2002 04:50									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I think that 8 teams is more than enough, and would only add three games for the two teams that go to the championship. I don't think there are 16 teams that really can claim that they are the best.

Agreed.

Actually, I don't think there's 8 teams who can claim to be the best (probably in most years, there won't be more than 3), but we'll let in the undefeated small conference teams to be practice fodder for the Nebraskas and Michigans and Miamis et al...

	29-10-2002 04:51									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Why shouldn't they? Because they aren't as good? Don't they deserve a shot at proving us wrong? You want to prove that you deserve a shot? Go to Miami or Nebraska and beat them in their house. It's as simple as that. I don't see why we should reward teams who hide out in horrible conferences...

Except, in your strength of schedule scenario, Miami or Nebraska won't play a team that could hurt their strength of schedule.

	29-10-2002 05:12									#136
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Louisville was an independent at the time, so except for them, they all were. Oops. UNLV isn't from a major conference either - the Mountain West Conference.

At the time they were in the Big West conference.

MWC has Utah BYU, New Mexico as well, all are legitimate Top 25 teams, every year.


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	29-10-2002 05:18									#137
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quote: Except, in your strength of schedule scenario, Miami or Nebraska won't play a team that could hurt their strength of schedule.

Why not? They do it right now. Do you really think that Utah State and McNeese State helped out Nebraska's strength of schedule? Nebraska will play anyone, as long as that team agrees to play both games of the series in Nebraska. If you want a home and away series, however, you better be a good team.

	29-10-2002 05:19									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Oops. UNLV isn't from a major conference either - the Mountain West Conference. They were still in the WAC back when they won their titles. Still weren't part of a major conference, though. 2 out of 20...

Once again Big West.


ACK!

	29-10-2002 05:40									#139
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quote: Once again Big West. ACK!

I know, I know! I forgot all about the Big West. Please forgive me...

	29-10-2002 05:42									#140
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I likes this " i wouldn't want a team with 3 losses to have a chance" stance.

The NCAA basketball tournament isn't about who is the best, it's about who is the best right now .

New England wasn't the best team last year.

Anaheim isn't the best team this year.

BYU won a National Championship in 1984 because they didn't lose a game.

Does anybody think they were the best team?

On the flip side, in 1996, they had a team that went 14-1, losing only to Washington.

They didn't get a BCS at large bid.

They got the cotton bowl where they beat Kansas St.

That team, by the way, was the first college team in history to win 14 games in a season.

	29-10-2002 05:42									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Once again Big West. ACK! I know, I know! I forgot all about the Big West. Please forgive me...

I'm from Utah, that's why I know.

	29-10-2002 06:01									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski BYU won a National Championship in 1984 because they didn't lose a game.

IIRC, Jan 1 was a Sunday that year, and BYU refused to play on Sundays for school policy reasons... so they never even got tested by a top-ranked team in a bowl.

(to repeat, IIRC)

	29-10-2002 06:20									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man IIRC, Jan 1 was a Sunday that year, and BYU refused to play on Sundays for school policy reasons... so they never even got tested by a top-ranked team in a bowl. (to repeat, IIRC)

That could very well be, I can't seem to remember either.

	29-10-2002 06:27									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski That could very well be, I can't seem to remember either.

Oh, I remember it I'm just not absolutely sure . I do definitely remember some controversy about BYU as #1, though, and I wanted to add a disclaimer in case some Mormon gets mad at me

	29-10-2002 06:33									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Oh, I remember it I'm just not absolutely sure . I do definitely remember some controversy about BYU as #1, though, and I wanted to add a disclaimer in case some Mormon gets mad at me

So do I, things like: Bo Didley Tech come to mind.


ACK!

	29-10-2002 07:10									#146
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Pop quiz:

Of the Big East, the ACC, and the MAC, which conference has the greatest number of teams currently ranked in the Top 25 of the coaches' poll?



Incidentally, I have no problem with a three- or four-loss team winning the national title. If a 7-4 Middle Tennessee State can beat a 10-2 Texas, 10-1 Florida State, 10-1 Oregon, and an 12-0 Oklahoma, all in four successive weeks, well, color me convinced--them there are your national champs.

	29-10-2002 07:16									#147
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I agree.


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	29-10-2002 07:43									#148
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Tuberski: "That team, by the way, was the first college team in history to win 14 games in a season."

In Division 1-A, you mean. The 1989 Georgia Southern Eagles went 15-0, the first college team in any division to do that. The 1998 Georgia Southern Eagles were 14-0, and then lost the title game in the Championship game.

	29-10-2002 07:54									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man IIRC, Jan 1 was a Sunday that year, and BYU refused to play on Sundays for school policy reasons... so they never even got tested by a top-ranked team in a bowl. (to repeat, IIRC)

January 1st, 1985 was on a Tuesday.

The controversies were whether a 6-5 Michigan team deserved to go to any bowl, and why didn't the major bowls pick BYU?

	29-10-2002 08:10									#150
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT January 1st, 1985 was on a Tuesday.

Jan 1, 1984 was a Sunday. I do remember BYU refusing to play on Jan 1 for that reason, but I may have the year wrong.