18-12-2002 20:56									#121
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You know, Mazarin, that is a really good idea Very creative and original.

	18-12-2002 21:09									#122
	Tired of ads?

I discovered that during my AU202 game: I used my only leader to rush the palace in newly conquered territory (costed about 800 shields)...an I was pretty surprised when the next turn, I still needed 50 rounds to finish the palace

	19-12-2002 01:30									#123
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

lets come back to the point made earlier:
The Problem is that the AI is a challenge only in the beginning of the game and as more high the difficulty level the more difficult is the beginning and this is exactly my Problem.
When i play on King its a good challenge at the beginning, but very soon i am the most strong Civ and the game becomes boring.
On Emperor it is even more difficult at the beginning and on Deity it is (for me) too difficult at the beginning to enjoy the game. i have no fun waiting most of the game until i catched up,
so my problem is that up to King the challenge is lasting not long enough and on Emeror and Deity it is too difficult in the beginning.
What i think also much other here would like is an AI which is challenging most of the game and not only at the beginning.
If it is too difficult to program a better AI what about giving them other bonuses later on in the game, or perhaps make them stand together always against the human player once the Player is thebiggest civ?

	19-12-2002 01:56									#124
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gwylim If it is too difficult to program a better AI what about giving them other bonuses later on in the game, or perhaps make them stand together always against the human player once the Player is thebiggest civ?

One option here (as it seems the ability to exploit the AIs behaviors to your advantage is the real problem) is to alter your behavior.

Try limiting yourself to the OCN.
Try putting certain restrictions on your build options - always Temple/Cathedral first, never barracks, never roads, always irrigate, never Science buildings, never Religious buildings, whatever, you get the point.

Yes, it would be great if the AI could play as well as a human, but that's just not feasible. The fact that the stronger AI gets more "bonuses" as opposed to the human getting more "handicaps" shows that there's no way to make the AI "smarter" or more flexible.

All that we can do is give the AI more "cheats" or try to improve his "playbook" or "recipe book". It's still not going to make him smarter, even though it might make him harder to beat.


With the tweaks to the PtW AI, it's definitely loads better than when this thread was started - check out how many mines the AI builds opposed to how many irrigations, it's semi-scary now.

The AU mod helps the AI some, but if you're an "in-betweener" like me, you're stuck playing a game that's either too easy or too hard; in this case, I think personally limiting your own behavior can make the lower difficulty setting a bit more enjoyable.

Not the optimal solution, but a solution.

	19-12-2002 13:06									#125
	Support Apolyton

I'm with Gwylim.

I'm now playing comfortably on Emperor. I think the difficulty is hard enough during the ancient age, but would like the difficulty to be just a bit harder during the middle ages, even harder during the industrial ages, etc.

ducki has some suggestions, but although I have enjoyed a few OCN games, all his suggestions involves restricting how I can play so much that it no longer will feel like my strategy.

I know that a good AI is hard to program, but what could be easier is separate difficulty settings per age, so that the AI production bonus could be even higher during the later ages and their corruption lower, etc.

Another possibility, which can be modded without the help from Firaxis, is to make a few new governments - governments that are better than any of the current ones. Like a democracy w/o war weariness and with military police. This government would be a very good boost for the AI during the later stages, but would be illegal for the human player to ever choose.

It's not possible (AFAIK) to actually restrict the human from selecting such a government, but it will be considered an exploit to ever switch to it.

	19-12-2002 13:57									#126
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Note, I said limit yourself to the OCN - Optimal City Number - not OCC - One City Challenge.


One question - you say that specifically setting certain limitations would make it not feel like your strategy - how much of your strategy is really "your strategy" and how much is an adaptation based on how the AI plays?
In other words, is it really strategy or is it meta-strategy? This is not a pointed question, really. I'm just curious if the adaptations we make to compensate for the AI's bonuses are viewed as "my strategy" or if they are recognized as compensations.

	19-12-2002 15:42									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: What i think also much other here would like is an AI which is challenging most of the game and not only at the beginning.

It would nice if Firaxis came out with a patch that would do that... but that is not likely & dreaming will not help.

Therefore, if limitations are not appealing to you, I would recommend using the editor to modify the game. IMO, I have found the following hurts the AI:

1.Railroads - The AI doesn't seem to understand how to change it's strategy when railroads are invented. For example, it still tries to drag its troops through your territory to reach that unguarded city (as if you only had mere roads). Maybe open the editor & delay railoads.
2.Forbidden Palace - The AI doesn't know how to place down its Forbidden Palace in a good spot. So once FPs come into the scene (around Medieval Age) the human begins to gain an advantage of less corruption whose benefits grow to where it becomes obvious in the Industrial & Modern Ages. Maybe delay FPs.
3.Palace - The human knows how to Palace-Jump to further decrease corruption as the game progresses, where the AI does not. Not sure if this can be edited.
4.Corruption - The human knows how to battle corruption with rush-builds, WLTKDs, etc. & the AI does not. Therefore, lowering corruption on a grand scale (using the slider in the editor to ~70-80%) has been reported as providing favorable results for the AI.
5.Artillery - The AI does not know how to use artillery offensively or even in a cost-effective manner. Flagging the AI to not build artillery (so it builds other military units instead) should be of benefit. Removing artillery completely is another option.

If you don't want to touch the editor, the AU Mod has somewhat of a goal of being focused on improving the AI which you may want to try. If you feel that's changing/ruining the game... not much else to do, unless you want to post again about how you would like a better AI.

	19-12-2002 16:51									#128
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne Another possibility, which can be modded without the help from Firaxis, is to make a few new governments - governments that are better than any of the current ones. Like a democracy w/o war weariness and with military police. This government would be a very good boost for the AI during the later stages, but would be illegal for the human player to ever choose. It's not possible (AFAIK) to actually restrict the human from selecting such a government, but it will be considered an exploit to ever switch to it.

Actually, I believe it is, although it requires definite fiddling with the tech tree --

Set some mandatory precursor Advance to a government type, assign it as belonging to "No Era" (i.e., can't be research or -- I think??? -- traded) and assign it only to the AI player(s).

-Oz

	19-12-2002 18:10									#129
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandias Set some mandatory precursor Advance to a government type, assign it as belonging to "No Era" (i.e., can't be research or -- I think??? -- traded) and assign it only to the AI player(s).

They cannot be traded. But out of interest have they fixed the Great Library problem with these in PTW?
Also they would get this at the start.

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew 2.Forbidden Palace - The AI doesn't know how to place down its Forbidden Palace in a good spot. So once FPs come into the scene (around Medieval Age) the human begins to gain an advantage of less corruption whose benefits grow to where it becomes obvious in the Industrial & Modern Ages. Maybe delay FPs.

This is probably too radical for AU but I wonder if giving the FP a prerequisite of a courthouse would help.
The AI might often have courthouses first in a moderately corrupt area so gain more from the FP.
It would need to be playtested and I imagine the FP would sometimes end up being built in very odd places or near the capital. It might be better placed on average though.
Also the human would need more investment than just one leader.

	19-12-2002 20:19									#130
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Nor Me They cannot be traded. But out of interest have they fixed the Great Library problem with these in PTW? Also they would get this at the start.

Oh my -- I didn't know there was a problem re: TGL ...

However, what I meant by "precursor" was:

1. If it's a non-human gov type available at the start, then just use the "No Era" flag uniquely for the advance required for the gov.

2. If not available at start, have the gov type be associated with an Advance not required to complete an era, have it branch from the tech tree wherever you see fit, AND have the "No Era" Advance required.

-Oz

	19-12-2002 22:25									#131
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandias 2. If not available at start, have the gov type be associated with an Advance not required to complete an era, have it branch from the tech tree wherever you see fit, AND have the "No Era" Advance required.

This is the part I cannot do. Advances seem to only be able to require advances in the same era and goverments have only one prerequisite which is an advance.

	21-12-2002 11:33									#132
	...build Longbowmen when Medieval Infantry is available? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is a similar problem to building the Guerilla when Infantry is available. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen sometimes.

It seems that the AI can evaluate which unit is better to build for a certain purpose (offense, defense), and it builds mostly that unit, but it also builds some other units for that purpose, just in case the other units turn out to be useful.

Attachment: shuruppak.jpg
This has been downloaded 132 time(s).

	22-12-2002 03:23									#133
	shows promise Increase Your PM Length

In the game from which this screenshot was taken, the FP requires a courthouse and allows air trade:

Attachment: promise.jpg
This has been downloaded 122 time(s).

	22-12-2002 03:30									#134
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Unfortunately of the 5 other surviving AIs, two have the FP near their palace and 3 have not built it in 920AD.
Obviously this needs more playtesting (not to mention a control. How well has anyone else seen the AI FP placement ever?)
But the Persians are looking like a killer AI. (No scared smilies?)

	22-12-2002 05:22									#135
	. . . refuse to switch government . . . Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

. . . when religious and when suffering starvation-level war weariness?

The attached shows two city views of Madrid, the AI Spain's capitol, over the course of a nasty war which ultimately ended with Spain's elimination. Spain (religious) refused to switch from Democracy to either Monarchy or Communism, even as Madrid starved from size 12 to size 3. Only at size 3 did Spain finally go communist. Not only would a switch to communism have alleviated the WW unhappiness, but it would have offered more opportunity to draft defenders (which were sorely needed). One of Spain's foes, Persia (not religious), switched to Communism before any significant starvation occured.

Catt

Attachment: won't a religious civ change governments.jpg
This has been downloaded 111 time(s).

	22-12-2002 05:30									#136
	. . . refuse to eliminate the thorn in its side? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The attached screenshot is from a "barbarians random" game in debug mode. I presume the barbarians were "raging" because they were popping up pretty frequently (I never got to see an uprising to determine for certain). Babylon's attempted REXing was significantly crimped because of a nearby barbarian hut. A Babylonian settler would venture out, sense a barbarian, and rush back to Babylon. Even an escorted settler returned when faced with a barbarian. The AI of course enjoyed enormous combat bonuses against barbarians but refused to send out a warrior or two to "cleanse the land" of the threat. Take a look at the minimap and you can see that other civs have expanded to 3 or 4 cities. Babylon is still OCCing it, even though it has two settlers ready to go (but unwilling to venture out). This absoutely prevented Babylon from becoming a power -- the same thing happened to Germany, east of Babylon on its own island.

Catt

Attachment: won't kill barbs.jpg
This has been downloaded 124 time(s).

	22-12-2002 05:36									#137
	. . . Break an Unproductive Loop? Support Apolyton

This behavior would strike me as difficult to correct since I imagine it happens only when the stars align . . . but nonetheless I'll point it out.

The attached shows an Arab scout. For at least 20 turns the scout used it's 2 movement points to: (1) move SE along the floodplain, and (2) move back NW to the same tile it currently occupies. This pointless movement loop ended only when another civ attacked and destroyed the nearby barbarian camp. My guess is that the scout was attracted by the goodie hut, but repelled by the barbarian camp. In any event, it essentially neutralized the Arab's starting advantage.

Catt

Attachment: won't break loop patterns.jpg
This has been downloaded 123 time(s).

	22-12-2002 05:43									#138
	AI Uses Luxury Slider! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Catt in another thread The AI never uses the luxury slider

I thought Soren had posted that the AI won't use the luxury slider but instead will always use entertainers. I was surprised to see the attached in a debug game I was running to test a possible mod to communism. As war weariness built up within Persia's cities, it seems that for whatever reason Persia decided to actually use the luxury slider (if only at 10%).

Catt

	22-12-2002 06:01									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

IIRC -Soren posted that AI only uses the luxury slider to combat war weariness, because -opposed to city-size/pop-rushing- it influences the whole empire.

	22-12-2002 19:13									#140
	Put an end to popups!

hi ,

what levels where played catt

have a nice day

	22-12-2002 20:08									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Mazarin IIRC -Soren posted that AI only uses the luxury slider to combat war weariness, because -opposed to city-size/pop-rushing- it influences the whole empire.

I don't recall the Soren post but your explanation makes perfect sense.

panag - it was a test game in debug mode on Regent.

I didn't include one other oddity I saw the first time. I believe we've all seen that the AI can make some strange build choices with respect to wonders (great and small) -- i.e., choosing a low-shield city to build Leo's in only 142 turns . In this test game, Xerxes, the leader until forced to switch to Communism late in the game, elected to build his Apollo Program in a large "core" city, but unfortunately a great trade city but a poor production city. This example is probably not entirely valid (since another AI won a diplo victory the turn before), but Xerxes did not switch his Apollo build to a more productive city, even when his capitol completed a build and was free to choose something else. As you might imagine, 47 turns to build Apollo could be a fatal mistake (if the space race is still "active").

Catt

	23-12-2002 04:51									#142
	Why, oh why does the poor AI... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

... make peace in the early game to absolutely inacceptable terms?

Ok, here's the short story. Oh, and before anyone criticises: No, I would never play this way in MP .

4000BC - Built Istanbul.
3800BC - Built first warrior, "Ahmet". Sent to explore east.
3750BC - Spotted enemy borders (so close , that's an ultra-huge map, 200x200, with all 24 civs)
3700BC - Stepped in with Ahmet. It's Niagara Falls of the Iroquois, yet undefended. Hiawathas scout must have stumbled in a hut.
3650BC - We trade Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial + 10 gold for Bronze Working + Masonry. They refuse to trade us Pottery, for all we possess + all our gold per turn.
3600BC - We declare war and destroy Niagara Falls.
3500BC - Ahmet gets killed by an approaching stack of 3 Warriors. He succeeded to kill one.
3250BC - 2 Iroquois warriors approach our borders. Our first Settler is on the way and we build the second one. We don't have a single military unit. Nevertheless, Hiawatha agrees to make peace and gives us Pottery + Mysticism for merely 36 gold.

I have no military and no chance to build enough in time. Hiawatha has at least 4 warriors and 1 spearman on the way. That's what Ahmet spotted before his death. I never could withstand such a force. But still Hiawatha makes peace, to pretty humiliating conditions.

Why, oh why?

Attachment: hiawatha.jpg
This has been downloaded 160 time(s).

	23-12-2002 10:16									#143
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Catt I don't recall the Soren post but your explanation makes perfect sense.

I remember that post - I think it's in this thread, actually. (Edit: After reviewing the thread, it must be elsewhere. )
Soren did say that the AI uses the Lux slider solely to combat WW.

	23-12-2002 10:23									#144
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Found it.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...065#post1433065

	23-12-2002 11:17									#145
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sir Ralph: The AI does not know how to evaluate "forced mate" positions like yours (to borrow a chess term). Like a chess computer, it would require a slow search engine to find a win 4+ turns ahead.

	23-12-2002 13:32									#146
	Worker Jobs Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What is the purpose of the Persian Worker below?

I don't see much value of building a railroad there. I currently trade with Persia via airports, harbors, & road connections. Perhaps he is looking to create more road trade routes, but wouldn't working on tiles closer to his border 1st be better for that? If I'm missing something obvious let me know.

Attachment: what.jpg
This has been downloaded 140 time(s).

	23-12-2002 15:43									#147
	Suffering from ads?

Having a railroad to cross that mountain range for 0 movement cost would be useful. Are the two cities in the picture connected by railroad by a different route already?

	23-12-2002 18:54									#148
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hi ,

ahem , here is something new ;

an army out of three infantry attack a lone infantry and get defeated , ...... the regular defending infantry survives with two hitpoints , .......

okay Soren you did a nice job but , huh , is this normal

there is the posibility off course , but what are the chances of seeing that , ........

( burning sigar felt from lips )

is this a good thing or is it a no so good thing

Soren

have a nice day

	23-12-2002 20:41									#149
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This affects only mods, so it's not as important as some other issues mentioned here. Nevertheless, it's annoying because it prevents the AI from loading non-nuclear missiles that have the ability to be loaded in a naval unit.

The AI knows to use tactical missiles properly, only if they have the "tactical nuke" AI strategy. Missiles that have the "cruise missile" AI strategy, never get loaded, even if the human can load them in ships because they have both the "cruise missile" and "tactical missile" abilities. We cannot work around the problem by giving the "tactical nuke" AI strategy to these missiles, because they are not nuclear and the editor allows that AI strategy only for units with the "nuclear weapon" ability.

Ideally, the cruise missile AI strategy should include loading and using from ships, if the unit actually has the ability to load into a ship.

	23-12-2002 22:44									#150
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Having a railroad to cross that mountain range for 0 movement cost would be useful. Are the two cities in the picture connected by railroad by a different route already?

Well for me I want RR in all tiles as pollution can show up anywhere and I want to get there and clean it in a hurry. The timing on when to build that RR is another matter and I will wait until there is nothing better to do.
I make an effort to have all tiles useful for one city or the other with a size 19 map, that does not always work out.