19-11-2002 07:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Further a question: do you guys think that the diplo guys from the other teams are talking to each other already? Maybe we need to start establishing contacts early, without of course showing any intent. Just a simple 'Hello, I'm Joe, how are you today?' could mean that if they ever have to choose they will look at us with a smile instead of a grin. DeepO

You raise a very good question here, DeepO. It's hard to judge how quickly the other teams are working privately amongst themselves. Are we behind or ahead so far? Well we cannot know yet. They are probably asking each other the exact same thing : "what are the GS up to in there???"

I'm starting to wonder if we should start establishing official embassy-type contacts with the other human civs as well. We don't want to act prematurely...so I'm going to test out the waters tonight in a little bit on the main page, just a thread asking how everyone thinks we should handle foreign affairs and official conversations between countries in the game itself as well as on the threads. ( I would hope that we've elected or nominated a Minister for Diplomatic issues soon so we can make it all official and start preparing ourselves).

I'll look into that really soon here, thanks for bringing that up DeepO.

	19-11-2002 07:40									#32
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Why don't we call the minister of diplomacy an ambassador to the outside world? Because that is what his role is going to be for them, they have no business with our internal cooking.

As to establishing contacts before the game starts: I'm certainly in favor of that, but I'm not sure if we need to make it public yet... e.g. we could start by making contacts with the legos and the RPGers, and do the rest later. Which doesn't mean that a thread in the general forum wouldn't be good: we need at least some general way to contacting each other.

Next point: could it be a rule that whatever PM you receive in official capacity, you post on this forum, in a repository of sorts? Maybe make a thread in which only those msgs are being kept, and nothing else (too many threads receive a lot of spam, and sideway ideas here, which make them enjoyable, but not very efficient).

DeepO (off to bed, I have to get up in 4 hours time)

	19-11-2002 07:53									#33
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Although I doubt that there a lot of diplomacy already going on, I completely agree that we should start on that front. Having relations, good or bad, with the other teams is infinitely better than having none at all.

I don't have much to say just yet, simply because I think how the diplomatic front is going to develop is going to depend a lot on geography (at least it should until much a later on in the game...mid Middle ages). I think "sizing up" the various teams is a bit preemptive at this point, but is a good exercise for later. That is, I don't think we should make any decisions concerning the other teams right now, but practicing to "get into their heads" is sure to pay off when it really counts. I would say that guessing the other teams' intentions is the most important part of diplomacy...just not early on.

Here are some situations we can discuss at this point:

1. We are alone on a land mass with only one other civ.

If the other civ is an AI, I say we gut it ASAP. What do we do if the other civ is a team? I think this largely depends on the size of the island, but I'm inclined to gut them quickly too (the Arrian Deception may even work, although I doubt it). A good trick to use here would be to "pretend" that the land mass is bigger than it is in order to create the illusion that there is room to expand. The other civ will then not know that we're going for a early strike. Obviously the Expansionist trait is immensely useful here (I hope we get the Iroquois!).

2. We are on a Pangea continent with most other civs.

This is a real toughie, and will surely give us Diplomats a lot to think about. The standard "oscillating war" that works so well in SP simply will not function here, as once we declare war on a team civ we had better finish it. I think a good policy here would be to vie for positioning so that we're geographically advantaged for taking out any AI civs on the continent. Land area is a precious resource, and we know the AI's land will eventually fall into human hands. Those hands may as well be ours.

3. We are on an largish island with 2 team civs.

This is also difficult, as I think that most combinations of teams will want to gang up on us (if the other teams are planning anything diplomatic, this is probably it, IMO). I think the key here would be some very agressive but peaceful REXing followed by as much friendship as we can offer. I don't think we can take on 2 team civs at once.

4. Tech trading

I don't think trading techs to other teams is all that bad an idea. As long as we're the ones trading the techs away (and therefore getting as much out of as many opponents as possible), we're golden. Sure, it sucks to trade away Iron Working or something to the other civs, but they're probably going to get it pretty quick anyway, so might as well get rich off it. The only techs I don't think we should ever give away are Monarchy and The Republic, and if we ever do, it should be right before a declaration of war: hopefully they will decide to switch immediately and we'll catch them in an extended Anarchy (assuming they're not Religious).


Ok, I guess I've said more than I thought I would. Again, the particular geography is the most important thing, so let's wait to see what our Scouts tell us, shall we?


Dominae

	19-11-2002 08:13									#34
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quote: Further a question: do you guys think that the diplo guys from the other teams are talking to each other already? Maybe we need to start establishing contacts early, without of course showing any intent. Just a simple 'Hello, I'm Joe, how are you today?' could mean that if they ever have to choose they will look at us with a smile instead of a grin.

We indeed need a public face ASAP, just to let other teams know who they can contact.
I don't think much diplomacy is going on at the moment between other teams, but there is off-course no way of knowing this for sure.

And that's should indeed be a blueprint on AI handling

	19-11-2002 08:19									#35
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Will the head of Diplo do the actual negotiating?
(When you're not the top-man, there's allways the "I have to talk this over to my boss" escape.)

Hmm, maybe better to assign one person to each team to encourage trust between them.
(in case of shortage dubbling up is an option off-course)

Mesh, sign me in here
(not aspiring any leadership position, (yet )

	19-11-2002 08:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 Will the head of Diplo do the actual negotiating? (When you're not the top-man, there's allways the "I have to talk this over to my boss" escape.) Hmm, maybe better to assign one person to each team to encourage trust between them. (in case of shortage dubbling up is an option off-course) Mesh, sign me in here (not aspiring any leadership position, (yet )

Interesting idea

one liason per team

Alva: how could you apire to a leadership position in a school you are not a member of?

	19-11-2002 09:02									#37
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quote: Mesh, sign me in here (not aspiring any leadership position, (yet )

sign me in

No leadership positition wanted

	19-11-2002 09:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 sign me in No leadership positition wanted

Did you just quote yourself alva? I think you are a bit too unstable to be a minister





j/k i see what you were saying, now.

	19-11-2002 14:35									#39
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Just to double check are you saying that you want to sign in for the "diplomacy schola"?

or are you volunteering for an ambassador-like status?

And for your diplomacy 'actual negotiations' do you mean 'in-game' or on the threads? they are both the same, yes, but I am curious as to which you may have been referring to....

I would hope that nobody would ever be in any position as to say " hold on let me check with my boss".

The Diplomats, or even better yet, the Chief Diplomats in real life are generall presented with a situation by the President (or Grand Poobah in this case) and told how to deal with it. Or at least given a 'general inclination' towards their overall goal. I expect that the Chief of Diplomats would be in contact constantly with the Grand Poobah. And THAT contact goes both ways : Diplomat informing President of foreign response to actions, and President informing Diplomat what goals we are aiming for and how to help out diplomatically.

make sense?

	19-11-2002 15:20									#40
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ok,
Sign me in for the diplomatic scola

And I meant out-sidegames nagotiations

	19-11-2002 15:31									#41
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edited posted in wrong thread...

	19-11-2002 18:01									#42
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well... as to the "let me check with my boss" thing: this is a demogame, you can always say "let me check with my mates". This is how it should be for big decisions anyway, if we set out to get an alliance from someone, and are willing to pay one city and 1000 gold for it but the other is asking for 2 techs and 1000 gold instead, there should be some discussion. It can be a very powerful thing: when the offer is at 1 city and 500 gold, and the other party is asking for more, you say: I have to check this, I'm not authorised for this amount, at which point the other team thinks you are at or around the limit of what they can get out of the deal. They might be more inclined to accept it at a lower price.

As to contacts to all civs: I don't know. Are there enough people for this? I don't mind it, but I fear for the pratical issues here. As to contacts to all civs: it would seem logical that the chief is also chief ambassador, so that he needs to negotiate deals as well. Maybe best to start practising some asskissing now

DeepO

	20-11-2002 00:15									#43
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Good PR on the "who's the best team thread". I thought about responding, but decided that I'd leave it to one of our official diplomats... glad I did.

	20-11-2002 00:27									#44
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Yeah... I figured it needed a response fast, before others could comment on it. I would have left it for someone else, but it is becoming quite frustrating to see all these things posted... it will make the life of us diplomats a lot harder. We aren't so evil, are we

DeepO

	20-11-2002 02:49									#45
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I'm not worried, but am starting to wonder where all this anti-GS propaganda is coming from, other than the obvious sources.

This conflict regarding new players joining this team is becoming, in only a day, a potential public relations farse. I'm still in the process of defending our team.

NYE I'm glad you posted in that Gathering Storm thread. flash seems to be up to no good for us. I'm sure we can handle him, all it takes is for that little OT thread to suddenly appear where all see who he really is...or isn't...?

No DeepO we are the good guys. We will stick to our outlines of being an honorable civ, but bad things happen to good guys too. We must be wary of those who might wish to destroy us publicly. As outlined in our own charter (well we don't have a charter but we've discussed it here before) we will be honorable and not reduced to spamming or flame-fests. Treat everyone according to how they treat us. But remember, you can kill with kindness.... on the threads that is. The real game will be a different story.



So let's not jump to conclusions so hastily as our fellow Apolytonian Flash and his cronies. He may be stirring up dissent against us but these arguments against us are baseless and unjust. We will prevail!

	20-11-2002 03:59									#46
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Indeed, NYE, a good call to post another message in our thread.

As to my 'are we evil?' rethorical question: it was more ironicly meant, in no way I think we are the bad guys here. I was thinking on cooking up that charter of ours, and post a public version of it on the general board to at least make our intentions clear. There is a big difference between what we are discussing here, and how the rest sees us, and as long as it is favorable (diplmatically speaking) to show what we want to do, we should. There is one big problem with this, however, we need to be absolutely sure we will stick to our charter, as the moment we violate it it will come back and haunt us. Caution is key here...

DeepO

	20-11-2002 08:37									#47
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I am here to ask your blessings in communicating with the other team leaders/captains/presidents.

alva mentioned in another thread that contact with other teams should be somewhat restricted. I agree, however, the 'players' will have to talk to each other for the game to move along IMO.

To date I have had two 'chats' with other leaders. One was very early. Probably when it was just SR and FP and myself as members.

One other was when I asked Trip what LI was doing for new members (restricted or open; he said restricted btw).

I think that the diplomats need to do most of the work with contact re the other teams. When it comes down to it though, the players should be involved to get a trade done, an alliance made, etc.

I leave you to your fascinating debates. Good to see one schola going. More will follow as events require.

	20-11-2002 08:40									#48
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Oh. I would of course report any such exchanges of significance to you all. I could even try to keep logs if that would be helpful.

	20-11-2002 08:49									#49
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notyoueither

Interesting that LI is restricting members, yet we get labeled as a snooty club....

	20-11-2002 09:02									#50
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We got 'labeled' by GF. His notions will not stick in the long run. No worries. I think we'll do just fine. Especially since more people want to join us since then.

	20-11-2002 15:10									#51
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NYE, you got my blessing as well (blessing? I really have to enlarge my English vocabulary one time )

Please post some kind of log, so we know what is going on

DeepO

	20-11-2002 19:01									#52
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I second the DeepO's log idea. Although I don't want to be a control freak, I think the Diplomacy Schola should at least know about all significant dealings with other teams.


Dominae

	20-11-2002 22:51									#53
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Maybe we should work with what we've got here .

* I know none of this is set in stone, but we need to get moving. Making sure we don't end up with the leftovers

So, we have (as it stands)

minister:mesh

and 4 teams

-who would like to contact what team?
-who to make first contact with? Teamleaders?
Maybe Poobah could do an official introduction?

I strongly suggest doing all of this in PM's(in regards to other teams off-course).
Nothing on the public boards: officially we do not have diplomatic channels (YET!)

	21-11-2002 03:27									#54
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Well I'm minister by a landslide unless someone runs against me....

Thank you alva for getting things going. I'd like to answer some of your questions if I could.

Is it agreed that ALL the members of the Diplomacy Schola wish to have 'ambassador' status and be a main negotiator with a chosen team?

For example, do we want it like this (hypothetically of course)?

Meshelic - Foreign Minister to Glory of War, Lux Invictica
alva848 - ambassador to RoleplayTeam
DeepO - ambassador to Legoland

etc etc? again, those are just pure examples and don't reflect how it'll really turn out.

I support both choices we have. Whether every Diplomat wants to have a status as ambassador to another human civ, or if all the ambassadorial (?) powers fall to the Chief. I lean both ways. I certainly have the time to represent our team to all the teams out there. So time isn't an issue for me for the next couple of months...

thoughts?

	21-11-2002 03:36									#55
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I think we should all be advisors to the main (only) ambassador (Meshelic, until his term is up). I like to get a feel for the how a game is going in general, so I don't really like the idea of focusing on just one civ.


Dominae

	21-11-2002 03:40									#56
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If it makes any of you feel better, IF I become the main Chief Diplomat (as it looks like I may be...), and IF we choose to have one sole representative, I would promise to take everyone's comments very seriously and treat each one as of utmost importance. Nothing is more important than input to me.

(wow, I should include that in my campaign speech if I ever need to write one...)

	21-11-2002 03:43									#57
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Yeah, that would be my choice as well: keep everything combined into one ambassador, and have election terms on that. I for one, can't promise to be online every day (I know these past few days have been good, but that rarely is always the case), and we can't risk that the ambassador to a certain team isn't available for a week.

If things change, maybe I will run for an ambassador's position, but for now I don't want to hamper things with my enthousiasm when I know I can't hold on to that involvement.

DeepO

	21-11-2002 03:45									#58
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Meshelic, X-posted with you: you're very welcome to take on the amabassador role for me, but if someone else wants to, and comes forward I still think it a good idea to split the tasks up to avoid burn-out. It's just that I won't be one of them..
DeepO

	21-11-2002 05:31									#59
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I appreciate your opinion on this. I still say it's purely up to you guys how you want to go about this. I do not foresee myself burning out on this, although realistically I have to accept that that MAY happen in the future.

It's up to how much involvement RL allows you guys. At the moment I sit at home with nothing to do but post here and read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich or Peter the Great's biography or whatever else is in my historybook library.

I have the time. That's why I volunteered originally.
But if someone feels they would like to be involved this way then I'll be damned if they reach a glass ceiling. I encourage those wish to be involved to go for it, I will absolutely not stand in anyone's way. That's not my place to do so anyway.

So if you can, then you have my support. If not, you still have my support.

	21-11-2002 05:40									#60
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Well.. let's hear from the other members of the diplo team, but I'd say you can start to put your CV together to post on the general board. Please set up some log threads for the different communications, you are our voice, but we should also hear what you are saying / hearing.

DeepO

BTW, some practical issue: so far all threads are becoming mixed, and I will certainly welcome members from other schola to read the diplo stuff, but maybe it's time to start a convention here: all diplo-thread titles start with 'DIPLO:', signifying that although they aren't restricted for other members, it is diplo stuff that gets discussed here.
Of course this could also be done for the other Schola (scholia? Latin has been too long ago ), e.g. 'TACTICAL:', 'ECON:' & 'GENERAL:' It should get some sense of order in this spamfest we call our forum

DeepO