21-11-2002 05:47									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'll wait until further comment from the rest of the diplomacists...

	21-11-2002 06:23									#62
	Increase Your PM Length

Meshelic, you have my vote for our first ambassador.

Now, let's get down to business: do you have an agenda to complete before the game actually starts? I posted a few thoughts a couple of days ago...maybe that's a good starting point (maybe not!).


Dominae

	21-11-2002 06:35									#63
	Suffering from ads?

As far as agenda goes...

If I am to be Chief Diplomat, that means I mostly listen to the goals set down by the members, and by Notyoueither who basically in the end decides what happens. It is just up to the diplomats to juggle the neverending cycle of what each team wants and how to accomplish those goals.

But I have some rough ideas. MOST issues will be addressed as they happen, like trade deals, peace treaties etc. At this moment I am limited to simply maintaining the peace between our team and the others, and also laying down some basic basic ideas for what can be done.

However BEFORE the game starts I would like to:

1.) Establish communication with the other ambassador's from other teams (if they even have ambassadors. Togas of the RP team has stated they see no need for them before ACTUALLY making contact in the game. I see a need for it before, personally) be it through PM, email or posting on the main threads, although I'd prefer PM and email to main threads. Privacy is very important, although in the end I would be posting ALL my conversations with the other ambassadors here in our private forum.
2.) Watch the threads very closely, in an effort to form an overall strategy in regards to how we treat certain civs, ie do we deal with the GoW team as aggresively Roleplay team, as opposed to being polite to the Legolanders or nuetral to the affairs of Lux Invictica? These questions will be answered as soon as the game gets going...

	21-11-2002 06:41									#64
	Increase Your PM Length

What kind of "tone" are you planning on for establishing comm with the other teams? Are we to be polite, cordial, etc., generally really nice and respectable? No matte how we do it, I think it's a good idea, since it will appear (at least) that we're organized and ready to play. That's scary for those teams who are still struggling in their own forums.


Dominae

	21-11-2002 06:52									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Depending on how we shape our foreign policy, I think at first we must of course appear cordial. That is necessary to making friends, although in the end I sense friendships between human countries will fail due to the fact that they are our main opponents; there can only be one winner.

It IS up to our team though, how I represent us. If we decide that we really really don't like Lux Invictica and plan to be their arch nemisis during the duration of the game, then I shall most likely treat them more sternly and more aggresively. Same for every other team.

But if I am instructed to maintain as good relations as possible with them, than I shall do so as well. My job will probably be mostly messenger and intelligence gatherer, but a signifacant amount of my job will be to arrange negotiations on every level later during the game when we make contact with their civ INGAME.

So at the moment, the most I can do is try to discourage talk of alliances and treaties pre-game, and to appear as a reasonable voice of the Gathering Storm. Until something happens in-game, we still have time to decide what we want to do and how we go about it. It's not ALL up to me, remember....that's the reason of the Schola, equal power with one voice to represent.

	21-11-2002 07:25									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Caution. There is a Poly prohibition against publishing PMs without permission of the other party. Please make sure you obtain that, or make sure you can demonstrate that you gave notice that PMs with the other ambassador would be subject to being posted on this private forum. Keep the copy of that notice.

	21-11-2002 07:27									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Further Caution. Nobody should be making public comments in the general forum(s) based on the contents of any of those PMs without very good reason.

Thank you.

	21-11-2002 07:27									#68
	Suffering from ads?

Thank you for reminding me of that! even though that was also my intention to forewarn anyone I speak to diplomatically that my team will see what I say and what they say.

	21-11-2002 07:30									#69
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

2 great points in a row notyoueither.

I would like to support your second statement as well. That under NO circumstances does ANY of the private messaging done between myself and another foreign diplomat be mentioned of, quoted or even slightly referenced to in the main forum. Unless of course the Grand Poobah and Chief Diplomat give permission to do so. I suggest this be made into law.

(Remember that nye and I won't be GP and CD forever. So this law applies to ourselves as well.)

	21-11-2002 15:21									#70
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If Mesh is our Chief Diplomats, he is to deals with general foreign affairs on day to day basis, to work according to the team's chosen policies, but to also shape them, by dealings with the other teams, and altering or maintaing the way the view us.

Since he will be full of work, and despite the fact he currently has plenty of time and plenty of good will, i think we should assign or elect to be the Diplo-school leader. The leader will organize and supervise the discussion of the scholars. He will compile reports and deliver those to the Chief Diplo (which is the FAM) along with his recommendations, suggestions etc.

Perhaps right now this role seems unnecessery, but i think that as the game progresses the Chief Diplo will have lots of bearoucracy on his hands, and someone should be around to raise issues and make sure some work is done by the school members.

I also see him as the Schola representative, and as a public figure who will have contact with other representatives from other teams, but only with PR issues, NOT negotiations. He must be fully coordinated with the Chief Diplo, but his (the the diplo team ledaer's) moderated (or more aggressive) (compared to the chief diplo) approach towards the teams regarding various issues, can work either to pacify a potential ally/enemy or confuse him.

I see this second unoffical role as the teams second voice, becoming more important as the game itself becomes more and more demanding (for all ministers) and that is also when the tactic of the second voice can be most effective.

	21-11-2002 15:50									#71
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Does this mean that if say, Sir Ralph wanted to run for Economy Schola Leader and he was voted into such a role, that there should be another leader voted as the leader of that school? So in effect there would be 2 Economic Ministers?

I may have thought wrong.....but I thought that if in my case I was voted into office (which still has not happened officially yet remember...), then that would mean that I'm not just an ambassador, but also a 'director' of ideas and encouraging discussion just like we had hoped to have.

Besides, I'm only running for Chief of the Diplomacy Schola... which as part of the job description involves heading Schola discussions and proposals, but that job also entitles being the voice and representative of the 'team' in an official manner for the duration that a term permits me. There are other duties too, like arranging trades and such.

Not to say that the Diplomacy Schola Chief wields more power than the rest of them, in fact not at all. A Tactical Chief who is voted as being the leader and 'director' of discussions/strategy in that Schola is ALSO General of our armies and commands unit orders and such. Otherwise what would he do other than start threads?

I think you have a good idea Zeit, and I may have heard wrong when we designed our system, but I'm pretty sure that the 2 jobs you're describing have already been given to the role of 1 person. And there wouldn't be too much need for deputies because all the Scholia members are in fact of equal 'deputy' status already.

I think that's how it goes.... but have been wrong before.

We could put it to a vote...

	21-11-2002 16:22									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Mesh- i was just thinking that its a really big role- the Chief Diplomat, and it might be smoother and more efficient if the Chief Diplomat deals with the other teams (and AI) while those other diplomats discuss amongst themselves (the chief diplomat is a school member, so he joins as well) and some sort of formal report- who said what and what are the main conclusions regarding a cerain issue. Of course, this role will not be needed if the chief diplo has constant contact with all other diplos and is fully involved in the discussions (assuming we have enough active diplos to actually have a serious discussions...).
I just think that as the game progresses and/or RL issues arise circumstances change ,the minister will need someone to fill him in, or act as a second voice. These functions are IMO a more critical in diplomacy than in other ministers' work, and i think that the FAM (Chief Diplo) will be the busiest minister.

But that's just what i think, if a minster thinks that spliting his roles into two people will handicap him, then there is no need for it. I thought of this system more as a way to help the minister, not to keep him in check. (althogh the later is a secondary function).

On a more general aspect:
The way i pictured the scholas are not as groups that each has control on a certain element in the game, but as a group of "specialists" who set the tone and influence in a particular field. That is why i thought that running the game and schola discussions should be somewhat segregated, that is to say, the one who makes game decisions is not the one that sets the tone of the schola discussion. But this might be me misinterpreting (or just being ignorant) those basic principals of the working of the executives/scholas.

	21-11-2002 16:57									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by zeit Mesh- i was just thinking that its a really big role- the Chief Diplomat, and it might be smoother and more efficient if the Chief Diplomat deals with the other teams (and AI) while those other diplomats discuss amongst themselves (the chief diplomat is a school member, so he joins as well) and some sort of formal report- who said what and what are the main conclusions regarding a cerain issue.

You are right, it is a big role although it will become more important several terms from now. I'm sure any minister who needs a deputy will be able to find one (hopefully), just in case the workload becomes too much for him.
I am debating that very issue right now.

	21-11-2002 17:00									#74
	Support Apolyton

I second the idea of having a second in command, even if I see it slightly different, but before we run off to create another posistion here: is there someone to fill it? There is no need to discuss segregation when only Meshelic will be responsible for both jobs...

As to the PMs: very good call, NYE! I hadn't thought about it. We do need to have them, though. Otherwise another means of communications has to be thought off so that messages can be referenced.

Re: tone of contact: very polite, cordial, and generally interested. Even when we would be at the brink of war, it is the duty of the ambassador to try to resolve conflicts peacefully, and try to have friends among the other diplomats. If it is necessary to say things like: "I'm sorry, but for what you are offering there is no way I can stop Sir Ralph marching our troops into your cities, I simply don't control that side, and can only mediate between you and our army" then do so. Because that is what you are to the outside world: you are chosen as ambassador because you feel for them. I don't have any problem if you state you have problems with how our team treats another team, if this means they will be symphatic more towards you, thus gaining us a better deal. Kiss their asses like you were in school and need better grades from your teacher maths, just don't become sleazy, stay honorable and correct.

DeepO

	21-11-2002 17:05									#75
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: SIZE=1 originally posted by Zeit On a more general aspect: The way i pictured the scholas are not as groups that each has control on a certain element in the game, but as a group of "specialists" who set the tone and influence in a particular field. That is why i thought that running the game and schola discussions should be somewhat segregated, that is to say, the one who makes game decisions is not the one that sets the tone of the schola discussion. But this might be me misinterpreting (or just being ignorant) those basic principals of the working of the executives/scholas.

You're on the right track...maybe we both are. My impression has been that the Scholia leaders encourage debate, then the Scholia itself chooses their policy, and then the leaders put their policies into effect.

An example I can think of is Tactical again. Say we all vote asleepatthewheel as Tactical Schola Leader (ASATW your name just came up first in my head). It is then asleepatthewheel's job to decide what issues to present to the rest of the scholia students (say something like a war for instance), participate in discussion with them (about whether they want the war or not, if so what strategy to use, etc), and depending on what view is felt more, then he puts those views into action (going to war, implementing strategy, arranging units, etc).

Who knows zeit, we may both be right!
Either way, I'm still thinking we're all going to have to have a Gathering Storm chat soon, maybe on a weekend. We still have some procedural issues to bash out.
comments?

	21-11-2002 20:51									#76
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Just a Q mesh,

but what are the others then going to do????


btw: all pm' to and from other teams should be send to 3 members.
why?;
- if only one is send, and that person isn't on-line for one or two days, neither will the pm be
-treason(unlikeley, I know, but one never knows )

	22-11-2002 03:54									#77
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by alva848 Just a Q mesh, but what are the others then going to do????

I've thought of that.

Here's some thoughts:

While the Foreign Minister/Poobah Diplomat is doing the duties I've described above, the rest of the Diplomats are up to this:

Reviewing incoming information and forming strategies according to that information. (if it is possible later I'd like to post screenshots/graphics...and may need someone to help with that)
Communicating with Chief Diplomat you're thoughts and ideas
Participate in discussion with the remaining Economic and Tactical Scholia's to find out what issues must be brought to the attention of the Diplomats, if any (I'm sure something will come up)

There also may be work for a diplomat that volunteers to do so in these areas: Coming to conclusion on the best possible deals (as in the $$$) for anything ranging to a technology deal to ROP (if we have them) or alliances. There are a lot of stats that need to be watched and looked at. Also following how long treaties have been in effect and warning when they come to a close...etc etc...

So there will be plenty to do if someone volunteers for a Deputy style position, which I'm becoming more convinced of the need for.

All the diplomats are deputies in a way, even the Chief Diplomat, even though he heads up the whole operation. The remaining members of the Diplo Scholia, if they volunteer to help out, can have significant responsibility.

And remember, we haven't decided on the length of the Terms for ministers . So I'm hoping there will be numerous chances for anyone to be the main man if they want to be.

	22-11-2002 11:24									#78
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: : Coming to conclusion on the best possible deals (as in the $$$) for anything ranging to a technology deal to ROP (if we have them) or alliances.

economic scola

quote: Also following how long treaties have been in effect and warning when they come to a close...etc etc...

with only 5-8 other players, hmm, that means very little overtime, I guess

ps: what happens when your not here(ex:you quit). (yes , I know about the deputy). But you have the trust off the foreign miniters/diplomats. We then have to regain their trust all over again.

my way: (just an example)
L.I. : 1.Mesh, 2. DeepO, 3. Zeit, 4. Dominae, 5. alva
GoW: 1.DeepO, 2.Zeit , 3.Dominae , 4.alva , 5.Mesh
Rollplay: 1.Zeit , 2. Dominae, 3.alva, 4. Mesh, 5. DeepO
Lego: 1. Dominae, 2. alva, 3. mesh, 4.Deepo, 5.Zeit

Now, we all do something usefull. (you do the same thing, and you get to wear a title )

If one of isn't here, the next one takes over (there are not going to be big inter-teams discussions everyday. but there is a back-up)
It is a team game afterall, isn't it??

	22-11-2002 12:42									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by alva848 ps: what happens when your not here(ex:you quit). (yes , I know about the deputy). But you have the trust off the foreign miniters/diplomats. We then have to regain their trust all over again.

Well I certainly don't plan on having this position forever! I'd eventually like to branch out and try different levels of involvement. And yes, each term there will be a new Foreign Minister, so in a way that trust does indeed need to begin all over again....

quote: my way: (just an example) L.I. : 1.Mesh, 2. DeepO, 3. Zeit, 4. Dominae, 5. alva GoW: 1.DeepO, 2.Zeit , 3.Dominae , 4.alva , 5.Mesh Rollplay: 1.Zeit , 2. Dominae, 3.alva, 4. Mesh, 5. DeepO Lego: 1. Dominae, 2. alva, 3. mesh, 4.Deepo, 5.Zeit Now, we all do something usefull. (you do the same thing, and you get to wear a title ) If one of isn't here, the next one takes over (there are not going to be big inter-teams discussions everyday. but there is a back-up) It is a team game afterall, isn't it??

I like that idea. Works for me. I've said before that I don't oppose either choice we decide to make regarding 1 Ambassador to all teams or 5 ambassadors to each individual team.

If the other guys support this, then I'm all for it.
I had assumed that because there had originally not been much support for the Diplomacy Scholia that whoever was the Chief would have to do quite a bundle of the inter-team relations. But if the rest of the Diplomats would like to proceed on an agenda like this, then we will need to begin discussing who is the ambassador to which team and etc....

	22-11-2002 13:15									#80
	Got spare money?

Again, I like it in principle, but count me out... I can't promise to have a full attendance roster. But Alva, I see you want more of a role, is it a bad idea if you take for instance 2 ambassador positions? or more / less, like you wish...

DeepO

	22-11-2002 13:26									#81
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If I'm right (doesn't happen often ), it's about one or two pm' per week per 'ambassador' max.

I do hope we all take one team per person. I wouldn't being second in line once or twice though, if that helps

(ps: this will also help them to trust us)

	22-11-2002 13:39									#82
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It's not the 1 or 2 PMs a week that's bothering me, but that when you get a PM it can be needed to answer to it in 1 day time... and in the meanwhile discuss this thing on the board. I am not on line every day...

DeepO

	22-11-2002 13:42									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

question for you alva - if we go through with one ambassador per team, then what does the lead foreign minister do besides act as ambassador to one team? If that is the case, then what is the purpose of electing a foreign minister if he shares ambassadorial powers with the rest of the scholia. Does this not take away from the powers that are vested in the lead diplomat through an official election?

I'm not necessarily trying to defend my position and gain more power, because I haven't even been elected, only nominated. So I still have no power. It's just that we're discussing what we propose the powers given to the Foreign Minister would be.

I'd like to solve this, even though we have plenty of time before we need to begin official communications with the rest of the teams, but it would be nice to have this sorted out.

	22-11-2002 14:30									#84
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: It's not the 1 or 2 PMs a week that's bothering me, but that when you get a PM it can be needed to answer to it in 1 day time... and in the meanwhile discuss this thing on the board. I am not on line every day... DeepO

quote: alva btw: all pm' to and from other teams should be send to 3 members. why?; - if only one is send, and that person isn't on-line for one or two days, neither will the pm be -treason(unlikeley, I know, but one never knows )

quote: question for you alva - if we go through with one ambassador per team, then what does the lead foreign minister do besides act as ambassador to one team?

organising, presenting the combined results to the prez, etc.
You have given other exemples yourself allready

	22-11-2002 15:21									#85
	Tired of ads?

Here is a very very rough draft of the duties of Foreign Minister and the Diplomacy Scholia ambassadors. Bear in mind that this is subject to change and that by no means is this official yet. just an outline.


JOB DESCRIPTION
FOREIGN MINISTER
1. Begins discussions regarding foreign policy among local ambassadors
2. Reviews threads and creates intelligence information
2B. Posts intelliegence information as available
3. Posts screenshots if possible regarding diplomatic issues.
4. Sorts through logs and messages between foreign and local ambassadors
4B. Posts the logs and messages between foreign and local ambassadors
5. Posts all findings in threads beginning with DIPLO
6. Acts as ambassador to a human team
6B. May act as ambassador to additional teams depending on availability of local ambassadors
7. Writes propoganda, press releases
8. Brings issues of trade agreements to Economic Scholia for discussing
8B. Brings issues of alliances, treaties to Tactical Scholia
9. Carries out the will of the Poobah and the people.
10. Polling the people regarding important diplomatic issues.


There will be a few more I presume, but so far this sums it up it seems.

As for the AMBASSADORS

JOB DESCRIPTION
FOREIGN AMBASSADOR
1. Acts as voice of Gathering Storm to one human team
1B. May act as ambassador to additional human team as availability warrants.
2. Participates in discussions in Diplomacy Schola with all other ambassadors.
2B. Send all information to Foreign Minister for publication or posts all relevant information on threads
3. Publish ANY and ALL communications between themself and foreign ambassadors.
4. Create a thread regarding your mission, ie if you are the ambassador to Glory of War, create a Glory of War Diplomacy Status thread, or something similar.
4B. Include in ambassador thread the most recent information available on chosen human counterpart....

These are not rules or law at all, bear in mind. Just a basic outline for ambassadors and the Foreign Minister, so this way we know exactly what is required.

I'm sure we all have more to add, or delete, so what are your initial thoughts, and how can we improve upon this? Does this seem reasonable...? and if so, is there anything more we can add or subtract from this?

	22-11-2002 17:43									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Both the job descriptions sound fine to me (and very complete!). Although I was originially opposed to it, I dont' mind being foreign ambassador to one civ, and backup for other civs. However, perhaps we should assign ambassador status based on these two factors instead: 1) actual contact in-game, 2) interest. For example, if we meet GoW immediately and alva848 (say) really wants to be ambassador to them, then so be it. Sound good?


Dominae

	22-11-2002 18:28									#87
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I don't think it's a bad idea to allready start the fundations. IE start approaching other teams ASAP

Perhaps we need to look personality too, being a ambassador to the GoW is not likely to be the same as to Lego IMHO.
(not that it matters that much, we could just give our preferences and see what happens)
ex.: alva's choice (not saying that this is my choice)

1. lego
2.GoW
3.LI
if no else chooses lego, then it's settled
then I'm the ambassador for Lego, if two people take the same one, euhg, paper-stone-scissors ???

	22-11-2002 19:45									#88
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If no one minds, i wish to be assigned over our relations with the GoW team. It is bound to be a difficult task, but i am known amongst my friends as someone who can pacify and act logicaly. (also notriously known as a arab-sympathizer leftist...). So perhaps such an attitude towards GoW can wane their warcries against us.

I also want Mesh to clarify what information are the ambassadors are authorized to give the other teams, and what should be our basic requests (e.g: members list, which civ, structure of the executive branch, etc.)

I think what we need to tell them at this point is: our members list, how will we run the game and who are the other ambassadors.
Anything else you can think of?

I also wanted to remind you about the Apolytonia fair play charta i proposed (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=68059), what do you think of it, do you think the time to make it public has arrived?, or you think it is unnecessary and it will only work against us?

	22-11-2002 21:30									#89
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

zeit, one moment with the charter: we should include some options as to what we are planning to do, and post it then. Unfortunately, my mind is empty atm from a busy week at work, no further ideas here.

DeepO

	23-11-2002 03:35									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by zeit I also want Mesh to clarify what information are the ambassadors are authorized to give the other teams, and what should be our basic requests (e.g: members list, which civ, structure of the executive branch, etc.)

Well for starters I would recommend that ANY information that is sent to the other teams either first go through the Grand Poobah for approval or through the Foreign Minister, (or both). Sometimes it takes more than one head to notice anything that could give any advantage we may have away. But I'm sure we shall not run into the problem of "accidentally" giving away information too often, but sometimes mistakes are bound to happen, and are forgiveable.

I think that automatically each ambassador is authorized to submit an "ambassador list" which says something to the effect of "mesh is ambass to Roleplay team", "zeit is ambass to GoW", etc etc. That way all the other teams become familiar with the ambassadors, and will have a third-party line available to them if they wish to discuss with certain ambassadors specificially.

For the beginning of the game this is really all that's necessary.

Shall we delay an Ambassador's "Activation" until we make contact with the other team in-game, or have all the ambassadors be active at any and all time, regardless of how the game is proceeding?
I know that the Roleplay team refuses to conduct diplomacy until they've met the team in-game, or until the 'writing' discovery comes up or etc.

I agree that we should wait on the Fair Play Charter until we've more established ourselves. Besides, I reckon that Trip is planning to start a similar thread, so possibly you can send your comments to that one when it starts up. In case this doesn't happen don't worry Zeit, we will get to the Charter very soon. I think many of the guidelines already outlined in that charter are up on the threads, but we will still discuss this, that is for sure.