02-01-2003 01:41									#121
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zeit, they can see if they have access to the same luxury as us: if they connected furs, it wouldn't show up on their trade screen if we connected it as well. But, we haven't connected the furs yet, and neither have they connected a luxury, (see F11, with the assumption Lux has connected a lux.)

DeepO

	02-01-2003 02:45									#122
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Hey there,
I am around and trying to figure out an opening PM to Vox (betahound). Right now, I think that I will initiate a formal hello. I looked at the other diplomacy thread and I see som things we can broach, but I will buy us some time to figure it out with just a "hello" for now.

Mss

	02-01-2003 03:03									#123
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Manic, we probably need to figure out what we want to do about Warrior exploration: do we let them go wherever they please, or do we arrange a treaty preventing both parties from crossing an unofficial border? If we do not discuss this, their Warriors will just march into our lands (or, worse, claim the bottleneck), which I'm uneasy with.

Also, I would like to get a "feel" for what their intentions are. We need to get some sort of dialogue going so that we can make some sort of judgement. For all we know, they may decide to rush us the second they get Iron Working (in the next few turns, no doubt).


Dominae

	02-01-2003 06:31									#124
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For the moment I think we should/could ask them to at least halt their warrior as a sign/token of good faith.

That he can't go more south, while we are discussing this and initial diplomacy is going on.

That would at least buy us a few turns..

	02-01-2003 06:46									#125
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Good idea alva. Of course, they will expec the same from us in return (no going North, that is).


Dominae

	02-01-2003 06:55									#126
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Another extremely high priority is determining whether or not they are the only ones who share the continent with us. If they are, it is vital that the two of us establish peace that will last into the medieval era and coordinate our research as closely as possible. That will either keep us from getting left in the dust or give us a huge advantage, depending on how closely other civs work together.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 07:13									#127
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True,at the moment it is a choice..
What is most important?
1. They not knowing anything about us
2. We not knowing anything more then we allready do

If we can establish it's only us and vox on this continent, we don't really need to explore more land for now, do we.

And yes, as long as we can expand, there is no real need to go to war IHMO (fun as it maybe )
Afterall, in the long(er) run, we should be stronger then VOX(better/more knowledge of the game and the free settler).
While now we are still relatively equall*, we should run away in the future IMHO
*and in no condition to fight a long distant war.

	02-01-2003 07:18									#128
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Unfortunately, if we are alone together and we out-expand them, they'll figure out our long-term plan (to "use" them until the time is ripe to wipe them out) and will act accordingly by attacking us preemptively. When 2 civs are alone on an island, peaceful coexistence really only benefits the stronger civ in the long run.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 07:22									#129
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That's is why we must be in control of the bottleneck...
Even if they strike, and let's say we loose a city, our counter-attack and the fact we can out produce them should prevail..

	02-01-2003 07:23									#130
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No word from betahound just yet,in the spirit of pulling this together, here are the points I have distilled out of this so far is...

1) We want to let them know the luxes that we have (or will have once connected). In exchange for the luxes thay have and would be hooking up soon?

This is a simple point, I figure they would likely go for it.

2) Contact, as we do not have writing, I guess we can not figure out who has contact with them yet. We want to know who they have contacted.

3) In conjunction with item 2, Also with this we want to figure out who else is sharinhg this contenent with us.

4) We want to ask them to halt their warrior for the duration of these discussions as (we have to give them this) there is only our civ residing on the tip of a peninsula. This might be difficult to convince them of this. We will have to giver them the basic shape and size of the peninsula. Maybe a minimap trade would work. Eiither way, we will have to be prepared to stop in our tracks as well.

5) Feel out the potential of becoming coordinated reasearch partners.


Does this cover it, do we want to open up more cans-of-worms?

Comments?

I will pen a quick poll by 10 PM PST (1 or 2 day duration) to see what options we really want to persue.

Mss

	02-01-2003 07:41									#131
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If the two of us are the only ones on the continent, I view negotiating a strong long-term research partnership as our #1 priority. If not, we need to make some kind of arrangement to contact the other civ or civs, perhaps sending a warrior on a route chosen by Vox escorted by a Voxian warrior if we and Vox want to keep knowledge of each other's territories relatively secret.

Also, as I said in another thread, we may want to try to negotiate the chokepoint as a temporary border. That would achieve roughly the same purpose as blockading it, but in a more peaceful manner.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 07:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 1) We want to let them know the luxes that we have (or will have once connected). In exchange for the luxes thay have and would be hooking up soon?

Sounds good.

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 2) Contact, as we do not have writing, I guess we can not figure out who has contact with them yet. We want to know who they have contacted. 3) In conjunction with item 2, Also with this we want to figure out who else is sharinhg this contenent with us.

How about : as a gesture of good faith, both teams simultaneously reveal who they have contacted so far, or at least if they've made contact with anyone else. I think they would go for this (and if not, that gives us the answer anyway!). If it turns out that they've contacted another civ, they will feel bad that we have not. We could then provide a gift of all our current gold as compensation. As Nathan points out, our strategy critically depends on the knowledge of whether or not we're alone with Vox, making this offer quite necessary.

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 4) We want to ask them to halt their warrior for the duration of these discussions as (we have to give them this) there is only our civ residing on the tip of a peninsula. This might be difficult to convince them of this. We will have to giver them the basic shape and size of the peninsula. Maybe a minimap trade would work. Eiither way, we will have to be prepared to stop in our tracks as well.

We simply ask that none of their Warriors move South for the duration of our negotiations, and we do the same in the Northward direction. This is a perfectly equitable agreement, so I do not think we'll need to exchange minimap information to convince them. As a side note, the chokepoint in our continent makes things a lot easier, diplomatically.

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 5) Feel out the potential of becoming coordinated reasearch partners.

Inquire whether they're interested or not. I'm against trading techs too early, as it may backfire on us (they might put the tech to better use than we do). Once we're almost done REXing, we can return to the bargaining table.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 07:48									#133
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If the two of us are the only ones on the continent, I view negotiating a strong long-term research partnership as our #1 priority.

I agree, I just hope they go for it.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:04									#134
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At a risk of compromising vital information from the Euro-PBEM game, Alva and I started as extremely close neighbors. Rather than fight, we started a strong research partnership. We traded our early techs, and then Alva researched Mathematics to get us closer to Currency while I was working on Writing. Now we're starting things so one will get Philosophy and the other Code of Laws at about the same time on the way to Republic. (And while one researches Republic, the other can research some other stuff.) Getting a similar arrangement going with Vox could be extremely powerful if we're the only ones on our continent, and I really don't like the idea of delaying such coordination until the REXing phase is over. Also note that if we establish a strong, peaceful relationship, that could reopen the possibility of building a wonder instead of focusing entirely on our military and a Monarchy beeline.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 08:15									#135
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quote: How about : as a gesture of good faith, both teams simultaneously reveal who they have contacted so far

If it turns they have, won't they feel cheated having gained nothing? I would...

quote: We could then provide a gift of all our current gold as compensation.

What......? Our whole two gold....

quote: We will have to giver them the basic shape and size of the peninsula. Maybe a minimap trade would work.

I disagree here,
I say first we ask politely, then demand.
If we give that info, there is no real need for stopping them in the first place, is there?(except for location of strategic resources..)

quote: quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 5) Feel out the potential of becoming coordinated reasearch partners.

Sure, no problem..
As long as they are usefull and don't hinder us

	02-01-2003 08:18									#136
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Those five points sound like a healthy list, but are we missing something. If so, what? I will be penning the PM in a few. I will post it for final approval. First contacts are always sensitive and I just want to represent the team well so I think I will post a poll to gathere final opinions on the "offer"

Mss

	02-01-2003 08:19									#137
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Nathan, I thought our new strategy was to REX all the way, since we've got the chokepoint to protect us.

Trading techs is great, but we have to be careful. If I felt I had an advantage over my nearest neighbor, I would surely use them for a few techs and crush them when the time was right (deplorable, I know, but this is a game, after all). We cannot base our whole strategy around our wonderful, tech-sharing neighbors, because the possibility remains that they might not be so wonderful after all.

Why not delay until REX is over to share techs? We've got all the techs we need to expand right now, with the notable exception of Bronze Working. We could inquire what their research goals are (and reveal ours) so that there is not too much overlap. We can do the actual trades later on. There is no need to commit to a partnership right away.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:21									#138
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Those five points sound like a healthy list, but are we missing something. If so, what? I will be penning the PM in a few. I will post it for final approval. First contacts are always sensitive and I just want to represent the team well so I think I will post a poll to gathere final opinions on the "offer"

Perhaps would could ask them about their feelings concerning troop movement around the chokepoint. We both know it's there and we're both thinking about it, so may as well come to an agreement about it now.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:23									#139
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Agreed, my feeling is they will be only too happy to comply on this...

	02-01-2003 08:26									#140
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quote: Originally posted by alva If it turns they have, won't they feel cheated having gained nothing? I would...

That's why I mentioned the gold deal:

quote: Originally posted by alva What......? Our whole two gold....

Oops, forgot we were so poor. Then can agree on a certain amount in case one or the other team gets cheated, say 15-25 gold, to be paid ASAP.

Really, there is no harm in proposing this trade.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:40									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Nathan, I thought our new strategy was to REX all the way, since we've got the chokepoint to protect us. Trading techs is great, but we have to be careful. If I felt I had an advantage over my nearest neighbor, I would surely use them for a few techs and crush them when the time was right (deplorable, I know, but this is a game, after all). We cannot base our whole strategy around our wonderful, tech-sharing neighbors, because the possibility remains that they might not be so wonderful after all.

Many of the best ancient techs (especially for a more peaceful strategy) have Alphabet and Writing as scientific chokepoints. I would feel more comfortable researching those if I had advance assurances that I could trade them for military useful techs that my rival is researching at the same time. And if I feel that way, imagine how Vox would be likely to feel given GS's reputation. Similarly, aiming for Republic rather than Monarchy (and maybe detouring for one of the GLs along the way) looks a bit better if we have arrangements for us and Vox to get Philosophy and Code of Laws in parallel. There are advantages to having a coordinated plan in advance, and some elements of the plan require trades along the way to protect against one side's abandoning the plan at the last minute in favor of military advantage.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 08:49									#142
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I guess that I do not see this chokepoint you mentioned. Can you edumacate me?

Mss

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Perhaps would could ask them about their feelings concerning troop movement around the chokepoint. We both know it's there and we're both thinking about it, so may as well come to an agreement about it now. Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:52									#143
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay There are advantages to having a coordinated plan in advance,

How far in the tech tree will we be by the time REXing is over? My intuition is that we'll be about 2 techs further than Pottery, so coordination with Vox is not all that essential. We simply need to know what they're planning to research to avoid overlap, nothing more. When REX is over and we're more confident in our relationship with Vox, we can start some heavy trading.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay and some elements of the plan require trades along the way to protect against one side's abandoning the plan at the last minute in favor of military advantage.

This helps. The problem is that we're going to make completely different decisions based on cooperation. If they attack us, I would rather be hitting Monarchy pretty soon, but this will not be an option if we had agreed to beeline for Literature and The Republic.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:54									#144
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed I guess that I do not see this chokepoint you mentioned. Can you edumacate me?

From the 3000BC save, the area just above our Northermost Warrior (I never remember their names...) is a chokepoint. I had previously said it's 3 tiles, but it's actually only 2 upon closer inspection.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:55									#145
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I'm not convinced that a research partnership between neighbors can't be profitable through the entire game. Suppose we and Vox could pull out to a significant tech lead. We're bigger and more powerful than Vox (we hope, so I'm assuming it in this hypothetical), but Vox is still more advanced than anyone else.

With the tech advantage, both of our civs could reach out to invade other land masses. With a FP or palace on another continent, Vox could continue to be useful to us researching shorter tech paths while we head down longer ones. We might have to prop them up a bit, but we could still research faster with them as partners than with them as conquered territory, and our joint tech lead over the rest of the world would keep growing.

If Vox cares only about whether they come in first or not, they would have to fight us eventually. But they would also have the option of riding our coattails to an easy second-place finish. If they're willing to settle for that (or if we are if they end up the stronger partner), both civs could thrive throughout the game.

Of course this all hinges on the partnership's being successful enough to pull away from the rest of the world in tech. But if we and Vox are willing to each sacrifice a warrior for a one-turn "war", we can time simultaneous golden ages for whenever we want to. That could do interesting things in terms of rivals' abilities to keep up.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 09:05									#146
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Based on the Pyramids experiments (including a test where I tried pure REXing as an alternative to the Pyramids), we could easily be through Pottery, Alphabet, Writing, and the post-writing tech of our choice, and well into yet another tech by the time we start shifting out of REX mode. And that's even if military construction doesn't slow our REXing down significantly.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 09:10									#147
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quote: From the 3000BC save, the area just above our Northermost Warrior (I never remember their names...) is a chokepoint.

, good to see I'm not alone

If we can't get a warrior through anymore, It would be nice to get a liitle boat to see how big their territory is. Allthough my guess is, our side of the choke is bigger...

	02-01-2003 09:41									#148
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Nathan, if we do go along with what you're proposing(and the Voxians agree to the arrangement), I suggest we "offer" to research the techs along the Monarchy branch. We then do a 2 for 2 once we have Mysticism and Polytheism (but not Monarchy). If things go well we have no need for Monarchy and we can trade away in a happy partnership. If not, at least we're very close to the militaristic government we need in case of war.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 09:44									#149
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hmm, Not a bad idea Dominae..

btw: VOX just played their turn
(was any message sent at this point?)

	02-01-2003 10:09									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Nathan, if we do go along with what you're proposing(and the Voxians agree to the arrangement), I suggest we "offer" to research the techs along the Monarchy branch. We then do a 2 for 2 once we have Mysticism and Polytheism (but not Monarchy). If things go well we have no need for Monarchy and we can trade away in a happy partnership. If not, at least we're very close to the militaristic government we need in case of war.

Persia's logical military option in that case would be to wait until they get Monarchy from us, change governments, and then attack. In that case, we wouldn't be in any stronger a relative position than if we were both in Despotism. The main advantage the plan offers is that it might ensure a little bit longer period of peace, but I'm not sure we'd get enough benefit to make up for the delay in researching techs with clearer peacetime value.

And Persia would have to be either very trusting or suicidal to go along with the deal. Imagine the backstabbing possibilities they would face if we have Monarchy and they haven't even started researching a more advanced government.

Nathan