17-11-2002 12:45									#31
	Re: Say "NO!" to the Occupation! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Firelad Today, I have finally decided to say No to the Draft. I will not enlist in the ranks of the IDF. I do not wish to contribute to what amounts to state terrorism and I do not wish to pass the initiation into a militarist, fascist society. ~Mark.

Israel needs more brave principled young men like you Mark

Good luck - maybe you can serve your country in other ways instead of direct military service?

	17-11-2002 13:10									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I wouldn't call them allegations so much as sneaky suspecitions. Double alaises have been seen here on 'poly many times before and no doubt they will again be seen in the future. The real problem is only the moderators can track down where these posts are coming from; if they are originating from outside Isreal then I think it is safe to say the story is a hoax but they should be considered legit if they did originate from an Isreali server. Hopefully Ming will be able to do the leg work and we'll have our anwser soon.

You guys are kidding me, right?

Posts made in Off-Topic do not count. Try the 'search for more posts by this user' button on his post (it's the one with the magnifying glass). You will find no less than fifty-three posts, going all the way back to June.

	17-11-2002 13:14									#33
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I have to say... I find it very amusing that suspicions run high about someone claiming to be an Israeli against the butchering of Palestinians!

	17-11-2002 13:17									#34
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If I am correct, he used to go by the user name, Mark Liprovsky. We know him.

	17-11-2002 13:20									#35
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I believe you are correct.

	17-11-2002 13:23									#36
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his first post says he used to be Mark Liprovsky.


Boy Oerdin and Winston, I sure am glad you two aren't police detectives.

	17-11-2002 13:35									#37
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Don't look at me.

I didn't check any of his posts, just the profile. I even said it might be a coincidence that he entered a name similar to that of Saint Marcus.



And if you can see from his first post that he stated he used to be "Mark Liprovsky" (which BTW I believe was actually Liporovsky), then you're not much of a Poirot yourself.

	17-11-2002 16:22									#38
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Come on, Mark. If you want to go to the US, because daddy's there, you don't have to create some sort of a political upfront to do it.

	17-11-2002 18:02									#39
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Davar movil ledavar. Smol kitzoni meshihi, hithamkut mesherut, yerida mehaaretz. Az nachon sheze meorav gam beshikulim ishiim, aval ma laasot, kshe ha smol lo ohev mashehu hu notesh, boreah ve maashim aherim. Kmo she David(Dal) amar, at roze laredet? Red, aval al telachlech al kulam ba derech hachutza.

Im ata roze laanot... Tishmor et-ze beivrit.

	17-11-2002 18:08									#40
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Language violation!

	17-11-2002 19:02									#41
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Care to share the translation with us, Eli?

If you posted something against the forum rules... Then you're skrewed.

	17-11-2002 19:08									#42
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quote: If you are opposed to what your government does it is your duty to not enlist in the army.

What about paying taxes?

	17-11-2002 19:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Davar movil ledavar. Smol kitzoni meshihi, hithamkut mesherut, yerida mehaaretz. Az nachon sheze meorav gam beshikulim ishiim, aval ma laasot, kshe ha smol lo ohev mashehu hu notesh, boreah ve maashim aherim. Kmo she David(Dal) amar, at roze laredet? Red, aval al telachlech al kulam ba derech hachutza. Im ata roze laanot... Tishmor et-ze beivrit.

I wouldn't count on it.

	17-11-2002 19:55									#44
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Well, after an exhaustive five minute search, I can't find anything on the net to translate eli's post*. and dammit, I'm curious about what it says.


*actually, I found a hebrew dictionary that translated the first setence as "move the goat" or "goat mobile". I'm thinking that's not right.

	17-11-2002 20:22									#45
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Eli:
I have a Hebrew dictionary! Just wait...

And BTW, You can't translate that on the Internet, because it's been transliterated to the Latin alphabet.

	17-11-2002 20:57									#46
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This is really hard.

In the beginning, Eli is saying that the extreme left is leaving Israel because they don't want to serve.

And the last bit is, "Like David says, do you want to leave? Go, but don't badmouth Israel to everyone in the way of the outside."

	17-11-2002 22:36									#47
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quote: In the beginning, Eli is saying that the extreme left is leaving Israel because they don't want to serve.

Errr... no. But close.

	17-11-2002 23:52									#48
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Thanks to the people who talked on topic
For those who responded to my question, I was really asking whether It would be moral for me to try to evade the legal punishment for not serving, not if it was moral not to serve.

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How long have you been in Israel, and how did you get there?

I have lived here for 12 years, my parents having immigrated here when I was five.

quote: How much have you (based on location, what not) been a beneficiary of the policies you oppose?

Those policies have supposedly protected me from terrorist attacks. I believe that more than that, they have contributed to the "cycle of violence".

quote: What is/will be your future attachment to the state of Israel?

Maybe I'll live here sometime. Not too likely though. I'll certainly visit.

quote: Is your objection truly based on a fundamental personal principle that you will act on consistently, or simply a desire to avoid inconvenience and discomfort, or outright cowardice? (not challenging you, just it's a criteria IMO that you have to honestly answer for yourself)

Yes. It had taken me a year of hard thinking to reach that conclusion.

quote: Are there legal forms of what in the US is referred to as "conscientious objector" status? Alternate forms of national service?

Yes for girls, not for boys.

quote: By either dodging the draft, or doing prison time and then remaining in Israel, what would your goals be in either case?

If I would dodge the draft I would merely dissociate myself from the IDF and not serve it. If I would sit in prison It would be demonstrating my beliefs and perhaps more "honourable" - like taking responsibility.

quote: Is your opposition to military service in any form (i.e. complete and absolute pacifism a la Gandhi), or is it to specific policies/acts of the IDF or Israeli government?

I am not sure. I cannot concieve of an army I would agree to serve - but I am not entirely pacifist.


Azazel: I don't want to go to daddy in the US - I am only doing it because I have promised to. And I could have gone there and still serve in the army, everything was worked out. So the visit to my father has nothing to do with this matter. Interesting how some people find it hard to believe that it's possible to be actually unwilling to be drafted because of principles and beliefs...

~Mark

	18-11-2002 00:30									#49
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Hey, what will your options in the manila be?

1) Jail 6.
2) Jail 4.
3) etc.
4) etc.

	18-11-2002 00:50									#50
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quote: If I would dodge the draft I would merely dissociate myself from the IDF and not serve it. If I would sit in prison It would be demonstrating my beliefs and perhaps more "honourable" - like taking responsibility.

"Sit in prison". Oh you political prisoner you. you realize that most of the people that do go to prison over this don't get more than a week or two.

oh and I do believe that it possible for a pacifist not to serve in the army. However if one is afraid that he would be given totally illegal orders, one could still or go to non-combat, to be ridden of the doubt completely, or go, and know that as every soldier is told, one can and MUST oppose an illegal order, such as shooting civilians, etc.

paiktis once asked me : "Do you guys think about leaving? "
I don't think it's fair to leave a country, esp. a welfare state that has given you education, heath etc. from birth. In a sense, it's like letting your family behind. But if you feel that we're not worthy of you, please, leave your pair of keys behind. Good luck abroad.

	18-11-2002 00:54									#51
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But even non-combat roles support the occupation. After all, if they can't get the food out to the soldiers in the Territories, how could you keep occupying them?

	18-11-2002 01:01									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But even non-combat roles support the occupation. After all, if they can't get the food out to the soldiers in the Territories, how could you keep occupying them?

Every Shekel of taxes he pays supports the occupation. Should he also not pay taxes?

	18-11-2002 01:02									#53
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well, the occupation was, in fact, over, (most of the people didn't see an Israeli soldier or most of them any jew, unless they travelled to Israel proper) until a few months ago, and now there is, in fact , a state of war, so 'I' personally have no problem of serving in the army.( There was of course the question of territory and Intl. law). But I guess my and his views differ. I even contemplated going into combat. But I decided to go to school first.

	18-11-2002 01:03									#54
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There are those who would make such an argument. During the 1980s, many people deducted from their taxes the portion of the money that would be be used to pay for nuclear weapons. Not a few of them went to jail for it, also.

	18-11-2002 01:05									#55
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The revolutionary position is, serve in the armed forces, and try and convince your fellow soliders that the war is wrong. During the Vietnam, a few communists in the military got units to refuse to serve.

	18-11-2002 01:07									#56
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I personally think that leaving one's country to avoid the draft is reprehensible and is not justified by the correctness of one's country's foreign policy. Isreal is a democracy. The correct approach is to vote for a change.

Clinton and to some extent Dan Quail both avoided service during the Vietnam war. Even though Clinton went on to become president of the United States, he never gained the confidence of the US military or the majority of Americians. (He was elected twice by minority votes.)

I think if you carry out you plan and dodge the draft, you will ruin you life.

	18-11-2002 01:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are those who would make such an argument. During the 1980s, many people deducted from their taxes the portion of the money that would be be used to pay for nuclear weapons. Not a few of them went to jail for it, also.

And rightly so. We are a democracy where the majority wins and gets to send their representative to Congress. The Congress then gets to pass the bugetr.

Those arrogant, for that is what they are, individuals who think their opinions are better then everyone elses, that their opinions should carry more weight then everyone elses, and who think that they should be above the decisions of the democratic process are wrong.

When they break the law they should go to jail just like everyone else.

	18-11-2002 01:13									#58
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yes, but you see, in this moment in time, I don't believe that the war is wrong. some actions may be wrong, but the war itself is not. I will not do anythings that are against my morals, and will persuade any other person to follow me, but sadly, this is not the case.

	18-11-2002 01:17									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin When they break the law they should go to jail just like everyone else.

Only the one's who went public over their refusal to send in all of their taxes went to jail. They were deliberately setting themselves up as martyrs. They agreed with you, and they accepted the consequences of what they felt was their moral duty to oppose the evil of nuclear war. (You also need to keep in mind that in the 1980s, many of us thought that nuclear war was imminent--what with Reagan talking about winnable nuclear wars and all.)

	18-11-2002 01:21									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The revolutionary position is, serve in the armed forces, and try and convince your fellow soliders that the war is wrong. During the Vietnam, a few communists in the military got units to refuse to serve.

I dont think it's going to work in Israel...

First... The war is much easier than in Vietnam, against a much weaker enemy. And second, when a suicide bomber blows up every once in a while in Israel, they understand what they are fighting for, unlike the American soldiers in Vietnam.