17-11-2002 03:23									#1
	Say "NO!" to the Occupation! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hello... Lurker #5392 here. Not entirely a lurker. Anyway, to the point.
Today, I have finally decided to say No to the Draft. I will not enlist in the ranks of the IDF. I do not wish to contribute to what amounts to state terrorism and I do not wish to pass the initiation into a militarist, fascist society. I will also probably emigrate within a year or so, first to my father in the US and then, Gods willing (and if I'll still want to), to the UK.

Just wanted to let y'all know (and I guess my evil instincts to start another ME-Thread clone )

~Mark.

	17-11-2002 03:28									#2
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A big step. I'm sure it took much soul searching.

	17-11-2002 03:30									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sirotnikov is already aiming at you

	17-11-2002 03:36									#4
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quote: Say no to the occupation!

I agree! The Muslims have been occupying Egypt for far too long! Long live the God-King!

Wait, what are we talking about again?

	17-11-2002 04:08									#5
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Well if that's how you feel........ Congrats on standing up for what you believe in.

	17-11-2002 04:19									#6
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This one will lead to at least one banning, I predict....

Well, do wahtever you feel is right.

	17-11-2002 04:22									#7
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Congratulations for being the first Israeli i've ever seen writing that they dislike the way the Palestinians are threated.

	17-11-2002 04:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Viking Berserk Congratulations for being the first Israeli i've ever seen writing that they dislike the way the Palestinians are threated.

Yay
There are plenty tho. A good part of those who act on it sit in jails. Or at least have sat in jail for a while for it.

Shi: Thank you. In a society such as we have here, it's the most difficult part. Something that took a long, long time... It's amazing how powerful social pressure and indoctrination (I won't say brainwashing because that includes locking someone up in a closet IIRC...) can be.

Edit: By the way, if I don't manage to dodge it, I will be drafted somewhen after July... I don't have the date yet.
Question: Is it, in your opinion, moral or whatever (you know what I mean) for me to dodge the draft or go to the US in order to escape the prison sentence that is a consequence of disobeying the draft (assuming that you do not consider not being in the Army moral)?

	17-11-2002 04:35									#9
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At first I thought he was talking about something else. Then I read the thread. Then I posted this thinly veiled .

	17-11-2002 05:01									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Firelad Question: Is it, in your opinion, moral or whatever (you know what I mean) for me to dodge the draft or go to the US in order to escape the prison sentence that is a consequence of disobeying the draft (assuming that you do not consider not being in the Army moral)?

It depends on a lot of factors, IMO.

How long have you been in Israel, and how did you get there?

How much have you (based on location, what not) been a beneficiary of the policies you oppose?

What is/will be your future attachment to the state of Israel?

Is your objection truly based on a fundamental personal principle that you will act on consistently, or simply a desire to avoid inconvenience and discomfort, or outright cowardice? (not challenging you, just it's a criteria IMO that you have to honestly answer for yourself)

Are there legal forms of what in the US is referred to as "conscientious objector" status? Alternate forms of national service?

By either dodging the draft, or doing prison time and then remaining in Israel, what would your goals be in either case?

Is your opposition to military service in any form (i.e. complete and absolute pacifism a la Gandhi), or is it to specific policies/acts of the IDF or Israeli government?

I think the morality, etc. depends on your answers to those questions.

	17-11-2002 05:13									#11
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If you are opposed to what your government does it is your duty to not enlist in the army.

However you are young so your ideas are not 100% fixed. Then again who's are?

First ask yourself if you want to dodge the draft because you indeed disagree with your government's actions or if you are using this as an excuse not to go to the army because of other reasons (you are afraid, you don't want to waste time, etc etc).

	17-11-2002 05:19									#12
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Thank goodness Spain got rid of the draft because I would got enlisted... I dunno what we would fight against... Morocco I guess!

	17-11-2002 05:24									#13
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Good god, someone is going to go berzerk when he sees this. First it was muxec with his anti-israeli-school-propaganda thread and now a draft dodger!

Do what you feel is right lad. I support your cause.

Btw, may I ask you something? Is Haifa the only place in Israel where threy paly civ? There are a bunch of Israelis in Apolyton and all are from Haifa.

	17-11-2002 06:15									#14
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Given the current climate you have made a very brave decision . Are there many young people with your views over there?

	17-11-2002 06:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Firelad Question: Is it, in your opinion, moral or whatever (you know what I mean) for me to dodge the draft or go to the US in order to escape the prison sentence that is a consequence of disobeying the draft (assuming that you do not consider not being in the Army moral)?

Yes. You have a right to your life. You have the right to decide which causes are just enough for you to put your life on the line.

	17-11-2002 07:09									#16
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If this is a ligitimate post then your stand is admirable if legally criminal. Of course the fact that the poster is a settler who choice this topic to make his first post does leave me with a nagging suspection that Firelad is a double alais for another poster here at 'poly.

Either way it doesn't concern me.

	17-11-2002 07:32									#17
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Maybe Saddam will send your family $5,000 after you've successfully dodged and emigrated. Might be worth a try.

	17-11-2002 08:22									#18
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This isn't his first post.

	17-11-2002 08:36									#19
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The reason I won't ever live in Israel (or one of them) is the draft. I don't want to be a soldier, and I don't want to be in jail.

If you're emigrating, fine. I support you in your choice, if that's the way you feel - I don't agree with you at all, mind you - but what really gets me is people who continue to live in the state of Israel -which, like it or not, is built on and continues to live thanks to conscription - and refuse to be drafted.

	17-11-2002 08:39									#20
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Clicking on Firelad's name in the thread page revials a total post count of one which was made in the thread "Say "NO" to the occupation".

Sorry Tandee but this is the first and only post made under that user name. I think it would be interesting to trace which server this fellow is using and see if his posts even originated in Isreal. I'd bet even money that the name Firelad is a double alais made up by one of our resident anti-Isreal types and the whole story is fiction.

Any of you techies out there know how to trace which server Firelad used to make this post?

	17-11-2002 08:57									#21
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Oerdin,

What's more, he entered "Mark" as first name and "L." as last name in his profile. MarkL incidentally is the name we used to know the poster Saint Marcus by.

Might be a coincidence though...

	17-11-2002 09:01									#22
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I've notified Ming and I hope he follows up this lead. Gepap may just have been right about someone being banned over this thread.

	17-11-2002 09:06									#23
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Very interesting. **evil laughter**

	17-11-2002 09:20									#24
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We had a firelad post here a few weeks back about how his friends the peace activists had been shot at by settlers while picking olives with Palestinians. I assume it is the same person, though i do not know.

	17-11-2002 09:23									#25
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Profile For Firelad Search for all posts by this user.

Date Registered: 26-05-2002
Country Flag:
Status: Settler
Total Posts: 1 (0.01 posts per day)
Posts Stats: A: 1 | D: 1 | M: 1 | HP: 0
Last Post: 16-11-2002 15:27
Say "NO!" to the Occupation!
Contact Firelad: Click here to email Firelad
Send Firelad a Private Message!
Homepage:
ICQ Number: 32215733
AOL Instant Messenger Handle: JediMark85
Yahoo Instant Messenger Handle: firelad85
Referrals 0
Birthday June 2, 1985
First Name Mark
Last Name L.
Gender Male
Biography
Location Haifa, Israel.
Interests
Occupation
------------------------------------------------------------

This all was taken right off of Firelad's user profile. By doing a search for posts made by user Firelad I found he has made about one dozen posts in total but only one of them has been in an on topic board so that is why his post count is still one.

I'd still like to see what server was used to send his posts to 'poly and I'll check into finding out more about the two messenger I.D.s

Last edited by Oerdin on 17-11-2002 at 09:30

	17-11-2002 09:31									#26
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OK, so the posts that he made before were long enough ago that they're gone. He did post before, and I'm not the only one who remembers him.

	17-11-2002 09:32									#27
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edit: nevermind

Oh, and hey, we have the same birthday. Maybe it's me.

	17-11-2002 09:34									#28
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Here's a link to his previous post:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=65589

It does not disprove oerdin's allegations, but it does confrim that a firelad has posted before.

	17-11-2002 09:55									#29
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I wouldn't call them allegations so much as sneaky suspecitions. Double alaises have been seen here on 'poly many times before and no doubt they will again be seen in the future.

The real problem is only the moderators can track down where these posts are coming from; if they are originating from outside Isreal then I think it is safe to say the story is a hoax but they should be considered legit if they did originate from an Isreali server. Hopefully Ming will be able to do the leg work and we'll have our anwser soon.

Last edited by Oerdin on 17-11-2002 at 10:08

	17-11-2002 11:18									#30
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quote: Question: Is it, in your opinion, moral or whatever (you know what I mean) for me to dodge the draft or go to the US in order to escape the prison sentence that is a consequence of disobeying the draft (assuming that you do not consider not being in the Army moral)?

Yes. I think it's perfectly moral to oppose the draft not only based on the actions of the IDF, but on the opposition of forced labor. Congrats on standing up for what you believe.