18-11-2002 12:05									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yep. But if you're fighting the court decision, you'd have to be prosecuted.

	18-11-2002 12:21									#92
	Remove this text

True.

	19-11-2002 00:41									#93
	Put an end to popups!

Carter pardoned all Vietnam era draft dodgers the day he was inaugurated. This was a reprehensible act.

I agree that if one does not agree with the position of one's government and would like to refuse to pay taxes or to serve in the military, one can give up one's citizenship and emigrate. I don't think it should be an option for a person to enjoy full benefits as citizens without also sharing its every responsibility.

This issue is all about the fundamentals of democratic government. The people vote to choose policy. If individuals citizens were able to individually choose alternative policies, or to only cooperate with those they like, we would have anarchy, not democracy.

I personally think that Vietnam was wrong. I got drafted. I did not flee the country. I did not lie to a draft board. I did not cheat.


I think that any American who did cheat, who did leave the country to avoid the draft, should be permanently stripped of all civil rights. Carter's pardon was reprehensible. It is a stain on our nation's honor. It permanently dishonors the fallen hero's of all America's wars.

I am glad that Carter is going down in history as our worst presidents ever.

	19-11-2002 01:11									#94
	Got spare money?

That was one of Carter's BEST acts. It was courageous to stand up to the government and refuse to fight - in fact, I respect those people more than the people who knuckled under and showed up for the draft.

It dishonors the fallen heros of America's wars? Oh, so it dishonors people who decided it was OK to kill people when the government told them to?

Granted, these weren't bad people, and I don't mean to imply that. I just mean that those who allowed themselves to be drafted either a)believed in war or the draft, or b)did not have the courage to stand up to the government on that issue. I'm probably not going to give a **** if someone comes along and "dishonors" them.

Think of Carter's act as honoring those who were forced to fight against their will, and honoring those who had the courage to refuse.

	19-11-2002 01:14									#95
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah, I think we should hang Eli by his feet and beat him for that violation!

	19-11-2002 02:25									#96
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Carter pardoned all Vietnam era draft dodgers the day he was inaugurated.

The more I hear about carter the more I like him. I still wish he hadn't given up the Panama Canal though.

	19-11-2002 02:36									#97
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ramo: If you wish to change something in a Democratic society then the correct procedure is to work with in electoral system to get it changed. If that doesn't work and you still feel you need redress then you go to the legal system to see if they'll make the changes you seek. The constitution spells out very clear avenues which persons can take to redress any grievences they have with the government.

If you feel that your cause is so right why don't you try the court system? Or is the reason you don't want to try the legal route because you secretly fear that your cause is wrong or that it is so weak that it will not with stand logic & direct scrutiny?

	19-11-2002 02:42									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

God, isn't America so free?

	19-11-2002 03:00									#99
	Suffering from ads?

God, aren't you presumptious?

	19-11-2002 03:48									#100
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Well, I feel so much better knowing that NeOmega knows so much more about the constitution then the Supreme Court of the United States! All you proved is how a little knowledge is enough to lead you into the wrong conclusion. The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

The amendments are worded simply so a layman as myself could have a valid argument if I so chose to risk my life. XIII is pretty clear. You sidestepped the question.....

quote: BTW to show you what a nice guy I am I'm going to give you a chance to appalogize for your personal attack or I will report you to Ming.

	19-11-2002 04:25									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Been quite some time since Firelad's posted here.

	19-11-2002 04:40									#102
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well when we get it rammed down our necks that America is the home of freedom, yet the evidence suggests otherwise, what conclusions are we left to draw?

	19-11-2002 04:44									#103
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, I think we should hang Eli by his feet and beat him for that violation!

You mean his moral cowardice in lieing in an attempt not to be shipped to the occupied territories?

quote: Well when we get it rammed down our necks that America is the home of freedom, yet the evidence suggests otherwise, what conclusions are we left to draw?

What exactly are you talking about?

	19-11-2002 05:37									#104
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If you feel that your cause is so right why don't you try the court system? Or is the reason you don't want to try the legal route because you secretly fear that your cause is wrong or that it is so weak that it will not with stand logic & direct scrutiny?

Maybe the reason is the same as his reason to avoid the draft-- maybe he just wants to live his life. Getting yourself thrown in jail for everything you think is unjust is not noble, in my opinion, it's just stupid. When someone impedes your ability to live your life, that is the point to risk getting thrown in jail.

Your logic is faulty anyway. If all that has to happen in order for a right to be wronged is for it to be out in the open, all of the world's problems could be very easily solved.

	19-11-2002 05:54									#105
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

From a lot of these post, I think some of the people of here have a fundamental problem with the concept of law.

	19-11-2002 05:57									#106
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ned From a lot of these post, I think some of the people of here have a fundamental problem with the concept of law.

You nailed it on the head. Especially when law is equated with morality. Just because everyone else thinks it's right doesn't make it so.

	19-11-2002 07:44									#107
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's called legal positivism, sometimes the people are 'ahead' of the law.

Sometimes they're like David, and way, way ahead of the law.

	19-11-2002 09:06									#108
	Suffering from ads?

quote: You mean his moral cowardice in lieing in an attempt not to be shipped to the occupied territories?

to Eli for that one...just wish he'd be consistent and actually condemn the occupation, though.

quote: Sometimes they're like David, and way, way ahead of the law.

	19-11-2002 09:10									#109
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd to Eli for that one...

That's not where the moral cowardice came in, DF. The moral cowardice is in his hawkish attitude while perpetrating a fraud in an attempt to avoid a posting he'd rather not serve in.

	19-11-2002 09:12									#110
	Remove this text

Oh, yes I'd certainly agree with you there.

	19-11-2002 09:53									#111
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

So Ned, what do you think about Bush's avoiding going to Vietnam by having his powerful, rich daddy getting him into a cushy national guard position, which he then proceeded to go AWOL from?

	19-11-2002 16:19									#112
	Suffering from ads?

quote: That's not where the moral cowardice came in, DF. The moral cowardice is in his hawkish attitude while perpetrating a fraud in an attempt to avoid a posting he'd rather not serve in.

That's not moral cowardice. It's regular cowardice.

	19-11-2002 18:14									#113
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Regardless of what the law says, not showing up for a draft call is a victimless crime - actually, it's the opposite of that, because not only does NOT going not harm anyone, but if I showed up to fight I WOULD be harming someone. Therefore, I have a moral obligation to ignore any such call. That's my view of it, anyway - not only is there no moral obligation for me to go fight, there is actually a moral obligation for me NOT to fight (except in self defense).

So, as long as it's just your neighbor's kids getting blown up, it's all OK and you feel morally obliged not to intervene in any way? Well, gee, in that case I'm glad you're not my neighbor!

As for me, while I respect a man who will stand up for what he believes in, politics would never prevent me from fighting against those who would blow up kids in our streets.

	19-11-2002 18:20									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Verto Been quite some time since Firelad's posted here.

I'm afraid that I can't contribute much to the discussion, since it has moved to matters beyond my knowledge, such as US law and Constitution...
Besides, I got my questions answered

If you want more info about the people in Israel refusing the draft, go to http://www.shministim.org ... I am one of the people signed on that letter, or should soon be added to the list.

I have drawn a poster expressing my opinions on the matter and put copies around school... I have been subtly "threatened" by a person from the military boarding school who study with us that I should remove the posters - I refused of course. Later he "gave me permission" to post whatever I like. Hmm.
Many people look at me weirdly now... I mean of those who know about my decision - which is most of the people in school. Thankfully, it IS possible for most of them to ignore my political views when socialising. Whee

It's amazing how silly arguments can get. Besides having all the regular talk which is pretty easy to refute (esp. when you've done it a hundred times already) although refutations are never accepted, I got the most original one today. Someone told me that my brain has been damaged by surfing the web too much and that I have, as a consequence of that, lost touch with reality - that explaining my views.

~Mark

	19-11-2002 18:26									#115
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just a little elaboration on the subject of my previous post:

A government's policies can be wrong, of course, but blowing up kids - for any reason - is also wrong, and can never be justified. Hence, even though we might actually agree about the politics, if you blow up kids in my country, you're my enemy.

It's as simple as that, really.

	19-11-2002 18:28									#116
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Guardian As for me, while I respect a man who will stand up for what he believes in, politics would never prevent me from fighting against those who would blow up kids in our streets.

You are correct. The problem is, that the Israeli Army, which I refuse to serve, is not only itself guilty of blowing up people's kids, but also by its actions increasing the Palestinian motivation to kill Israelis. And motivation is all that counts - means will always be found...

	19-11-2002 18:40									#117
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Firelad You are correct. The problem is, that the Israeli Army, which I refuse to serve, is not only itself guilty of blowing up people's kids, but also by its actions increasing the Palestinian motivation to kill Israelis. And motivation is all that counts - means will always be found...

You are correct.
However, the actions of your army are dictated by your government's policies, are they not? So, your problem is with the government, not with the army as such. (Of course, it would be a better world if no armies existed in the first place, but that's not the world we live in...)

If some of those "motivated" Palestinians came to your neighborhood, will you still refuse to fight them?

-Or would you be willing to fight against such individuals while at the same time speaking up like you're doing right now?

	19-11-2002 18:45									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So Ned, what do you think about Bush's avoiding going to Vietnam by having his powerful, rich daddy getting him into a cushy national guard position, which he then proceeded to go AWOL from?

thats different bush is a republican

	19-11-2002 19:07									#119
	Increase Your PM Length

Guardian, I am under as big a threat of terror as the next person. I do live in a relatively safe city, but it really has nothing to do with my decision. I refuse to cooperate with the gov't and the army in that matter... That's it. I simply cannot do so while still staying myself, if you know what I mean.

	19-11-2002 19:20									#120
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay, I'll say No to the occupation...

No!


So, what's different now? Any notable changes? ...
No? Well, I thought so.

I believe, that every action in ME-area leads to a dead end...