18-11-2002 01:56									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And rightly so. We are a democracy where the majority wins and gets to send their representative to Congress. The Congress then gets to pass the bugetr. Those arrogant, for that is what they are, individuals who think their opinions are better then everyone elses, that their opinions should carry more weight then everyone elses, and who think that they should be above the decisions of the democratic process are wrong. When they break the law they should go to jail just like everyone else.

Wrong. We have a constitution and a Bill of rights. One of the amendments in the constitution is XIII;

Niether slavery nor involuntary servitude except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

So is being a pacifist a crime? Or is being forced to kill people to stop communism in Vietnam not involuntary servitude?

The whole reason the 13 original colonies accepted the new constitution was the bill of rights, and respect for the individual, and even the rights of the individual over the rights of the masses.

But fools like you try to run around and say we are a majority rule country. whatever 51% of the country thinks is right and moral, it must be so.

	18-11-2002 01:59									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel "Sit in prison". Oh you political prisoner you. you realize that most of the people that do go to prison over this don't get more than a week or two. oh and I do believe that it possible for a pacifist not to serve in the army. However if one is afraid that he would be given totally illegal orders, one could still or go to non-combat, to be ridden of the doubt completely, or go, and know that as every soldier is told, one can and MUST oppose an illegal order, such as shooting civilians, etc. paiktis once asked me : "Do you guys think about leaving? " I don't think it's fair to leave a country, esp. a welfare state that has given you education, heath etc. from birth. In a sense, it's like letting your family behind. But if you feel that we're not worthy of you, please, leave your pair of keys behind. Good luck abroad.

Azazel, I would hope that any such conviction includes the permanent loss of the right to vote as it does in the United States.

	18-11-2002 02:02									#63
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quote: I personally think that leaving one's country to avoid the draft is reprehensible and is not justified by the correctness of one's country's foreign policy. Isreal is a democracy. The correct approach is to vote for a change.

quote: Azazel, I would hope that any such conviction includes the permanent loss of the right to vote as it does in the United States.

right so how does a pacifist avoid killing innocent people?

And what about the 18 or 19 year old who is drafted but never even got a chance to vote?

	18-11-2002 02:09									#64
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no it doesn't. Prisoners retain the voting rights.

	18-11-2002 02:15									#65
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The attitude that 'the government is always right' expressed by the likes of Ned is rather scary. Remember the principle of democracy is not purely about the will of the majority. It is not acceptable for them to force their will on a group who do not agree with them!

	18-11-2002 02:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison It is not acceptable for them to force their will on a group who do not agree with them!

It depends on the situation. When the workers democratically decide to appropriate the property of the capitalists, I think that's an acceptable use of democracy.

	18-11-2002 02:48									#67
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quote: It depends on the situation. When the workers democratically decide to appropriate the property of the capitalists, I think that's an acceptable use of democracy.

Why commies are scary. Do you really think the "workers" will use the property any better? Or not abuse their new found power?

	18-11-2002 03:44									#68
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quote: Question: Is it, in your opinion, moral or whatever (you know what I mean) for me to dodge the draft or go to the US in order to escape the prison sentence that is a consequence of disobeying the draft (assuming that you do not consider not being in the Army moral)?

It is very moral to dodge the draft, and it is very moral to avoid being punished for that "crime".

	18-11-2002 03:51									#69
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I verify Mark Liporovsky is a real person. I have talked to him in mIRC about alt civ game quite some time before, all of that would be too much trouble for a DL.


about dodging the draft... nationalism is not very in among the educated elites, but there may happen a situation when everyone has to pick a side and being a 'citizen of the world' leaves you standing alone. Such situation is full scale warfare, or next pogrom of the jews.

be careful about irreversible decisions young jedi

	18-11-2002 03:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Wrong. We have a constitution and a Bill of rights. One of the amendments in the constitution is XIII;

Well, I feel so much better knowing that NeOmega knows so much more about the constitution then the Supreme Court of the United States! All you proved is how a little knowledge is enough to lead you into the wrong conclusion. The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

BTW to show you what a nice guy I am I'm going to give you a chance to appalogize for your personal attack or I will report you to Ming.

	18-11-2002 03:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Do you really think the "workers" will use the property any better? Or not abuse their new found power?

Maybe, maybe not. But since we create the world, we should own it, we should democratically decide what to do with it. If we make mistakes, well, they are our mistakes and not forced on us from above.

	18-11-2002 09:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd It is very moral to dodge the draft, and it is very moral to avoid being punished for that "crime".

Nothing moral about it. It's saving your own skin is all. Still got your Seletive Service card David, or did you burn it? That's right you may need it to get any money in the future. Principles can wait until you can afford them right?

	18-11-2002 10:00									#73
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quote: And rightly so. We are a democracy where the majority wins and gets to send their representative to Congress. The Congress then gets to pass the bugetr. Those arrogant, for that is what they are, individuals who think their opinions are better then everyone elses, that their opinions should carry more weight then everyone elses, and who think that they should be above the decisions of the democratic process are wrong.

Interesting. So it would've been wrong for Japanese Americans to resist the US gov't's attempts to toss 'em in concentration campse? It was wrong for protesters to be sedititious when the gov't passed laws to suppress dissidents (the Espionage Act, the A&S Acts, the Smith Act, and so forth)? It was wrong for MLK and the rest of the Civil Rights movement to use civil disobedience to challenge segregation? It was wrong for strikers to defend themselves when the gov't approves of their suppression (or directly participates)?Etc., etc., etc.

Is resisting a government always wrong if it calls itself democratic?

quote: The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

Just because SCOTUS is politically motivated to undermine our liberties, doesn't make their decisions grounded in the Constitution. Quite clearly, involuntary servitude is prohibited in the Constitution and conscriptions is undoubtedly involuntary servitude.

	18-11-2002 10:26									#74
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quote: The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

Actually, they have only ruled once on the involuntary servitude argument, and that was only addressed by about two sentences of text in a WW1 decision that was not in any way legally objective, but rather laced with nationalism. I think that is a very challengeable decision.

quote: Nothing moral about it. It's saving your own skin is all.

What's immoral about that?

quote: Still got your Seletive Service card David, or did you burn it? That's right you may need it to get any money in the future. Principles can wait until you can afford them right?

I figured I might as well register for SS, to avoid legal trouble. If it comes down to it, I won't serve, and I don't view my registration as accepting a valid contract, because it was coerced - if I did not do it, I could have been sent to prison, thus it was an involuntary contract that I don't feel bound by.

	18-11-2002 10:36									#75
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I don't view my registration as accepting a valid contract, because it was coerced - if I did not do it, I could have been sent to prison, thus it was an involuntary contract that I don't feel bound by.

It's just like any other law you have to follow... whether you like it or not, and no matter what your opinoin on the subject is... it is THE law at this point in time.

And do you feel "coerced" not to commit murder or other acts simply because you get sent to prison.
Your logic is really weak/nonexsistent on this one.

	18-11-2002 10:38									#76
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Can they send you to prison for not registering with selective service? I thought they could only deny you federal loans/grants/etc.

	18-11-2002 10:47									#77
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Yep, in Texas at least. I got a letter saying that if I didn't register with the SS, I could be thrown in prison.

	18-11-2002 10:49									#78
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Yeah, but in Texas, they'll throw you in jail for not owning a big enough gun.

	18-11-2002 11:07									#80
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quote: It's just like any other law you have to follow... whether you like it or not, and no matter what your opinoin on the subject is... it is THE law at this point in time. And do you feel "coerced" not to commit murder or other acts simply because you get sent to prison. Your logic is really weak/nonexsistent on this one.

Regardless of what the law says, not showing up for a draft call is a victimless crime - actually, it's the opposite of that, because not only does NOT going not harm anyone, but if I showed up to fight I WOULD be harming someone. Therefore, I have a moral obligation to ignore any such call.

That's my view of it, anyway - not only is there no moral obligation for me to go fight, there is actually a moral obligation for me NOT to fight (except in self defense).

	18-11-2002 11:16									#81
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Just because 51% of the people say to do something doesn't make it morally right. God gave us a free will and a conscience and we are obligated to use them. If the government is telling you to do something wrong, then you should not do it and follow your conscience. Mark, if you believe the Occupation is as bad as most on the left make it out to be, then it would be morally abhorrent of you to go along with the draft.

I also think the draft is immoral. Like the Founding Fathers, I believe that people have natural rights and to force a person who has done nothing wrong to give up their freedom and possibly their life for something they might not believe in is wrong and should be avoided.

to Ramo and Floyd on this thread.

	18-11-2002 11:20									#82
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If you were so morally opposed to it David, you wouldn't register and stand up for your views. Your actions don't support what you call a "moral obligation"

	18-11-2002 11:23									#83
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Actually, my act of signing up for Selective Service is not morally repugnant. Me being forced to is, but that's different.

It would only be morally wrong for me to respond to a draft call.

	18-11-2002 11:25									#84
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Seeing as how actually being drafted is so unlikely, registering with the SS isn't a moral issue one way or the other. And the whole felony issue pretty much decides it.

	18-11-2002 11:29									#85
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Hey David... If you think the draft is unconstitutional, don't register. Stand up for your moral right. Fight it... take it all the way to the supreme court. Be willing to take grief that other great civil rights people took for standing up... Oh that's right, it's not really important enough to you to possibly go to jail over it

	18-11-2002 11:34									#86
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quote: Fight it... take it all the way to the supreme court.

The only thing someone my age is likely to get out of a court case is a summary dismissal and a lecture by a jackass judge.

And there's the minor problem of money.

	18-11-2002 11:45									#87
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I'm just funnin' you anyway. I bet you wouldn't believe that I voted for two libertarians this time around... but I did. But I'm not sure whether that is saying something good about the libs, or saying something bad about the people they were running against

	18-11-2002 11:47									#88
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No, it wouldn't surprise me, actually.

And I know you were kidding, I just have fun trying to troll out the people who REALLY believe in conscription

	18-11-2002 11:47									#89
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It's not merely a "possibility" that fighting a SS-related felony charge will get you locked up; it's a near certainty. Going against a long tradition of defying the Consitution generally isn't a good idea (particular wrt such an irrelevent fight).

Bah, I ought to refresh more often.

	18-11-2002 11:58									#90
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Actually, the government has not prosecuted a case of not signing up for SS since the early '80s...apparently, when they prosecute, the percentages of people signing up go DOWN, so it isn't worth it to them.