02-02-2003 23:23									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel neither is chinese, but we still use them as a single civilization.

The Chinese are possibly the worst example you could've stated for your argument. Americans, Ottomans, etc. would've been better, but of all the civs in the game, the Chinese are probably the most culturally similar to their ancient counterparts.

	03-02-2003 00:35									#122
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Their culture had a few profound changes. Not as much as Europe in the last half of a millenium, but everything moves fast in the last 500 years. .

Besides, noone calls the turks ottomans now.

	08-02-2003 21:10									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel neither is chinese, but we still use them as a single civilization.

What's your point here? That's what I ment

	10-02-2003 00:09									#124
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The point was that we are not talking about culture, but about nationality as well.

Byzantines didn't see themselves as Romans, although Bizantium considered itself to be the successor or Rome.

	10-02-2003 14:37									#125
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You are completely wrong. They considered themselves Romans. It was only Plethon that started changing that,
and it was not so long before the fall of the Empire.
They called themselves Romans and considered themselves Romans, not Greeks or "Byzantines"

	10-02-2003 16:56									#126
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right, that's why the spoken language was greek!

	13-02-2003 19:23									#127
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But, if You don't know that, they called it "Roman".
Up to today modern Greek is called by Greeks Roman or something, I believe (Any Greek here, tell exactly what I mean).

	17-02-2003 19:54									#129
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Well excuse me, but that's not a point of discussion. You are just wrong.

	19-02-2003 04:37									#130
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Gawd, you're tough:

a) They spoke greek, right? the fact they called it 'Roman' wouldn't matter, just as calling a new ICBM with multiple warheards "Happy Butterfly" won't change the fact that it is a WMD.
b) A revalation on the whole topic: I am pretty much spamming. I couldn't care less about the topic. They should make a Aztec civ in an eastern europe scenario for all I care. I don't give a **** about it. It's just a ****ing scenario anyway. If someone wants top place ****ing aliens there, be my ****ing guest. I don't ****ing give a damn.

	19-02-2003 16:15									#131
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Dear Azzie,
they spoke "Roman" language...
That it was a language earlier used by Greeks, it doesn't matter, as there were no "Greeks" then, and there were no other Romans.
That Frenchmen don't speak Frankish anymore doesn't mean they can't claim themselves to be descendants of the Franks. Actually they like to be Gauls better, but that's another case.

Oh, yes, you're right when it comes to the second part. But why do You need all those *'s to say that?

	19-02-2003 19:53									#132
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quote: That it was a language earlier used by Greeks, it doesn't matter, as there were no "Greeks" then, and there were no other Romans

there were no greeks? rrrrright.

Oh, whatever.

	19-02-2003 20:25									#133
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MMM, what is the relation with Byzance and Ukrania? Black Sea?

(Ok ok, the relation is: Could a new civ be generated after another, or is simply is an evolution?).

This is, is Ukrania a Civ candidate or should be included in "Russia"?

My answer: In Russia? Yes, the day that they call themselves "Ruthenians".

	20-02-2003 19:27									#135
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I agree

	20-02-2003 21:36									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel there were no greeks? rrrrright. Oh, whatever.

Of course there weren't, as all Greeks at this time were Romans, or "Romans", if You like.

	20-02-2003 22:21									#137
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No, I am not going to reply to this.

	21-02-2003 01:22									#138
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Completely wrong.

Even when they were at war with the Gauls when their capital was Rivenna in what is now Italy they regarded themselves as Romans.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel The point was that we are not talking about culture, but about nationality as well. Byzantines didn't see themselves as Romans, although Bizantium considered itself to be the successor or Rome.

	21-02-2003 01:31									#139
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Their spoken langauge started as Roman, but gradually added Greek words and dropped Roman words and evenually became more Greek than Roman, but the process was too slow for the general populance to notice.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel right, that's why the spoken language was greek!

	21-02-2003 01:45									#140
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The Roman culture heavilly adopted Greek Culture, to the extent that Greek became the langauge of commerce throughout much of the Roman empire.
By the time the Roman empire split, they had completely merged into one culture.

Even as they Eastern Roman Empire was being overrun by the Ottoman Turks, they regarded themselves as Romans.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel there were no greeks? rrrrright. Oh, whatever.

	22-02-2003 14:20									#141
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How did the greek nationality emerge, then?

	22-02-2003 18:17									#142
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Well, partly because of the church and partly from the language and partly because of the collective heritage, but is your point really that the Greeks had a national feeling because of the Byzantines. Maybe you would have to take a look at the timeframe:
1453 - Constantinople is finally taken by the Turks, in the last century they were not more than a city anyway. It had been centuries before the Byzantine Empire was a major player in the area.
1830 - Greece becomes independant

As you can see there is a gap of 400 years in which the nationalist Byzantine/Greek movement didn't do really that much. In fact it only really came into existence after nationalist movements in Germany, Poland and the impulses of Russia given to the Greek orthodox church.

	22-02-2003 20:15									#143
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Azazel:

	22-02-2003 23:39									#144
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I guess you're right.

But this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

	23-02-2003 21:23									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I guess you're right.

I'm always right. Haven't You noticed?

quote: But this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Who cares. A thread can have several different topics.

	24-02-2003 16:03									#146
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Well I know where your argument comes from: the Greeks did claim they were restoring the Byzantine Empire. But the Byzantines felt, though they practically were culturally and in language Greek, Roman.

	28-02-2003 16:43									#147
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quote: I'm always right. Haven't You noticed?

puddle of mud.

quote: Who cares. A thread can have several different topics.

I brought that issue only to demonstrate it as an example of my point. The fact that this has ben a false example, does not invalidate my point.

	28-02-2003 17:39									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel puddle of mud.

Nice to meet You!

quote: I brought that issue only to demonstrate it as an example of my point. The fact that this has ben a false example, does not invalidate my point.

It does

	01-03-2003 12:34									#149
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I can't believe Heresson is still spaming here.
Somebody, please shoot him.

	01-03-2003 18:52									#150
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shhh. I am spamming here , too.

как дела, сергей?