27-12-2002 02:57									#151
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-Jrabbit

From the peanut gallery the Monk raises his hand to offer a few observations...

1)There are TWO missing Civ's. Somewhere out there hides the last American city as well as Moscow.

2) I am playing this out my own self (this is a challenging game) and if you hit on the right strategy and find the missing AI's, the only limit is the 1750ad threshold for respawning civs.

3) Demo as a research choice is as good as any. Nothing further will be learned. All 'our' scientists can safely start a world tour as the "Poly-tones" fulfilling their secret desires to be in a rock band.

4) A clarification if someone will provide--Is it okay to wander dips thru the 'dark' when there are already embassies with all the AI??

I don't want to spoil the fun so no hints. Hats off to STYOM for devising a superb rule-set for this game.

EDIT---WARNING!!!

The threshold for Civ Respawning is 1500ad.

Point 2) has the wrong date. Just assumed that an earlier poster had remembered correctly that it was 1750. (Must pay more attention to those "IIRC" tags.)

Last edited by Bloody Monk on 27-12-2002 at 22:06

	27-12-2002 04:01									#152
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:Hmmm: Pisa? Melbourne? I hate the default "extra city" names.

BB = Battleship, DD = Destroyer, CL = Cruiser. Why not CR? I dunno, that's just what the USN uses. What does the Brit Navy use?

BMonk, no Dips if there is no legitimate need for Embassy

Dem?? No, we need Metallurgy for Cannon to assault the walled cities! Oh well. Cancel the tour and put them eggheads back to work.

	27-12-2002 04:22									#153
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Thanks Straybow.

I was wondering about the wandering dip in -Jrabbit's last save.

Cannons would be nice but are unnecessary for a 1750 victory; and, cash for rush buying has been berry, berry effective. With the slider set to max cash, it would not be possible to finish researching before game over.

Following the advice that sometimes comes thru the I Ching, for our scientists, "It does not further one to undertake anything." So, strike up the band....

	27-12-2002 19:36									#154
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey, Cyrion, why don't you join us happy campers? in the next succession perhaps?

SG[1]

p.s. vet Catties will be enough for the Aztecs I think...

	27-12-2002 20:01									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow :Hmmm: Pisa? Melbourne? I hate the default "extra city" names.

Yeah, sorry. I meant to rename those to be more in alignment with our oh-so-clever "system."

quote: BB = Battleship, DD = Destroyer, CL = Cruiser. Why not CR? I dunno, that's just what the USN uses. What does the Brit Navy use?

Thanks for clarifying. Didn't know this was a real-world reference...

quote: BMonk, no Dips if there is no legitimate need for Embassy

FYI that dip was inherited. Didn't know if I was required to disband him or not...

quote: Dem?? No, we need Metallurgy for Cannon to assault the walled cities! Oh well. Cancel the tour and put them eggheads back to work.

Why bother?

MORE RABBIT NOTES --

1. Dallas is on the 2do list, too, Monk. But once we overrun New Orleans, I expect it will be right there for us. Shouldn't require a major expeditionary force -- just the leftover crusaders from the assault on NY.

2. Are we locked into 1750 as earliest possible win, or can we win earlier by taking all civs out in the same turn? I assume the AI will flash the victory video if we can do that.

3. Agree re assessment of STYOM's savagely simple, insightful ruleset. This has been a blast!

	27-12-2002 20:25									#156
	Remove this text

I see that while I was gorging myself on 2 holiday dinners, the 'Poly Protectionists have been swallowing up Greek and Babylonian cities

quote: Originally posted by Straybow BB = Battleship, DD = Destroyer, CL = Cruiser. Why not CR? I dunno, that's just what the USN uses. What does the Brit Navy use?

CL= light cruiser. The USN used to use CA= heavy cruiser. Perhaps CA used to mean armored cruiser, from back in the days of the ironclads


Nice work Jrabbit... the bad guys are in real trouble now

This game has been fun Although I probably should have eliminated the respawn option Thanks for all your kudos and participation

I have an even more insidious succession game in mind for when this one (and the other Sticky Mouse one, which has been going on for how long?? ) is done. And there's still the "only-one-gov't-change-allowed-to-Demo-only conquest game" up my sleeve, too

	27-12-2002 20:27									#157
	Inflate your Upload Space

Looks like 2003 will be a worthy successor to 2002.

	27-12-2002 21:51									#158
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit MORE RABBIT NOTES -- 1. Dallas is on the 2do list, too, Monk. But once we overrun New Orleans, I expect it will be right there for us. Shouldn't require a major expeditionary force -- just the leftover crusaders from the assault on NY. 2. Are we locked into 1750 as earliest possible win, or can we win earlier by taking all civs out in the same turn? I assume the AI will flash the victory video if we can do that. 3. Agree re assessment of STYOM's savagely simple, insightful ruleset. This has been a blast!

-Jrabbit,

1. Sorry that my poorly worded statement was misunderstood, Rabbit. In trying to be brief, I left the impression that you might have overlooked Dallas. I was, instead, trying to imply a greater degree of difficulty in locating Dallas.

2. Very good question!!

The actual dateline for respawning is 1500a. I should have paid more heed to the "IIRC" part of DaveV's mention of the 1750 date, previously on p.7. He was trying to indicate some uncertainty and I should have asked for clarification.

I would still be in a state of misconception if not for an accident in typing. I had all the Civ's ready to take in 1750, and was just biding my time, when an errant twitch sent a unit into the empty Rhodes in 1730. My horror turned to laughter (way too much Christmas 'cheer' while playing) when there was no respawn. So I swept the board a little earlier than planned.

Hopefully, SG[1] will see this before playing and not be misled by my earlier post

The new plan: Find 'em, Sack 'em, Drink more wine to celebrate.

	27-12-2002 22:37									#159
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Great plan!!!!!!!
--> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> -->

	27-12-2002 22:50									#160
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A short story written in pictography!!

Well said....

	27-12-2002 23:18									#161
	Increase Your PM Length

Ten Crucs died killing off how many Musketeers in Teotihuacan, which doesn't have walls? We've got maybe four or five left and a similar number on the way, and three cities near enough to produce more. Pop 'em out every other turn… bloody, but would eventually work.

	28-12-2002 00:58									#162
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, we've finally hit a critical mass of smilies, such that there is a sufficiency of material to permit some solid basic communications.

We Are... The Electronic Egyptians!!

	28-12-2002 01:02									#163
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Hard to remember, but I don't think there were more than 3 or 4 defenders. Had several crucs go down without seeming to inflict any damage at all.

I was pretty sure there were walls there, but that may have been my reaction to the battle outcomes. Frankly, I don't really remember.

I do know that on one of my attacks, I brought the flag down but had no one left to enter the city. Flag went back up and my one remaining (very wounded) crusader had no shot. (Sorry, can't remember which attack it was.)

	28-12-2002 02:55									#164
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Yes, we've finally hit a critical mass of smilies, such that there is a sufficiency of material to permit some solid basic communications. We Are... The Electronic Egyptians!!

Sig-worthy, definitely.

There's nothing worse than bringing down the flag with your last 2 move attacker and finding him with 49% of movement left!! That's why we need DRAGOONS!

	28-12-2002 05:16									#165
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The AI usually doesn't sell City Walls while at war, but you never know…

Attachment: teoti.png
This has been downloaded 46 time(s).

	28-12-2002 06:44									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow The AI usually doesn't sell City Walls while at war, but you never know…

SOMEBODY better not be sabotaging walls with the forbidden diplos...

	28-12-2002 08:32									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man SOMEBODY better not be sabotaging walls with the forbidden diplos...

There is a new matron at The Institute who specialises in corrective treatment for exactly this kind of misdemeanour. I hear she is very good with fluffy animals.

--------------------

SG(2)

	28-12-2002 09:36									#168
	Remove this text

It wasn't Teo', definitely either Tlat' or Tex'. Probably Tex' based on proximity to our cities. Yeah, definitely, definitely Tex'.

The problem seems to be that for non-Axtecs, all those "T" names look alike.


And then there is the depression and disassociation from sending all those good men to their pointless death. Crooks against walled muskets in strength and probably with barracks--so many must die that our generals have their glory. Such unspeakable madness...


The Monk, having a flashback...

	28-12-2002 17:10									#169
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Hi guys,

First off - are you SURE of the 1500AD for respawning? this will considerably change the battle plan...

Forts now in place beneath the walls of Kish, Karakorum and Rhodes well stocked with heavies.
Moscow and Dallas located, Battle Groups tasked and en route.

Ship chain from our Holy Tradeless Homeland now reforming for the final push on the Aztecs - sadly the final victory will probably fall to my successor the logistics seem to be about to defeat me - but I have four turns left so "Nil desperandum, Gite"

Stray will be proud of the two new canal cities "Stray" and "Bow" allowing passage through the exAmerican continent

Barbarian cities of New Orleans and Ephese reduced, in the latter case to rubble.

Hope to finish today - but cannot promise

SG[1]

	28-12-2002 20:48									#170
	Gitus Rex Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No Trade Succession

1520 = King Git[1] accedes to the throne and endorses his predecessor's policy of Total War.
The objectives of his reign are enunciated in the King's Speech, there he sets out his intentions in the succinct phrase "Crush the B*st*rds!".
The production of the Realm is geared to this aim.
Battle Settlers are rushed where needed - white goods purchased - some explorers commissioned - and the game is afoot.

1530 = Population 8M; Many new Barracks started (probably too many, but we have spare resource); Hut-Crook;

1540 = Barb King 150g! Hut-Nomad; New Orleans taken without loss;

1550 = InstaFort built beneath Karakorum's walls - local cities move to vet Catty production; Ephese destroyed without loss; Wandering Diplomat now 'near Moscow'

1560 = Whales founded; Fort nest to Kish; Hut-Nowhere (Granary, Temple & Market); Stray founded to give EW passage of the American continent; Hut-None Musk;

1570 = Bow founded; Americans are pleased to offer Peace and Maps!!!! for University - they then foolishly declare war - so sad. Russians need Trade & Bridge Building for Maps!! Hut-Crook; Hut=Useless; Fort on hill by Rhodes;

1580 = Hut-100g; Hut-100g; Hut-100g; Hut-RussianFront;

1590 = Population 9M;

1600 = Hut-Musk; Unable to resist further, I hope that 1500 is correct, Rhodes and the Greeks destroyed;

1610 = Kish and the Babs taken; Dallas and the Americans taken; Hut-Musk;

1620 = Vet Catties roll towards Karakorum - they will be needed Vet Phallanx on river behind walls defends at 13.5 - do not attack until ready! Barb King-150g; Barb King-150g; Fortress below walls of Tlatelolco, vet Cats en route; Gitus Rex reluctantly passes his sceptre and orb ... Enjoy

SG[1]

Attachment: ap_a1620.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	28-12-2002 21:03									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC. Play List: 1. STYOM 2. DaveV 3. SG(2) 4. Jrabbit 5. SG[1] 6. Straybow 7. Hydey 8. La Fayette

	28-12-2002 23:13									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man SOMEBODY better not be sabotaging walls with the forbidden diplos...

Better to the forbidden use of dips to wander the black like an explorer.

STYOM: "...exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies."

	28-12-2002 23:40									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Hi guys, First off - are you SURE of the 1500AD for respawning? this will considerably change the battle plan... SG[1]

Oh, ye of little faith....

Seriously, I have too much respect for my betters to post an expansion (correction) to a statement by the King of Sleaze without testing.

Which might have been inferred from the "discovery" happening in 1730a, but the new date given being 1500a. I should have been more clear.

As a memory aid for myself I note that the respawn dateline coincides with the change between game turns to 10yrs from 20yrs in game year 1500a.

	29-12-2002 01:06									#174
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Nicely done, [1].

Now finish the deed, Stray!

	29-12-2002 01:45									#175
	Good game, Git1!! Increase Your PM Length

Hi guys,

One of the things about this particular game that made it so interesting is the ruleset. It requires one to think outside the box of our usual gameplay. Especially not being able to use dips as temporary duty combat engineers to take down walls. Some of our habits make it harder for us and, therefore, easier for the AI.

1) Why build muskets for garrison duty?? 20 muskets = 30 horses...or 20 horses + 5 crooks...or + 4 crooks + 1 caravel.

2) "do not attack until ready!"

Yeah, well, sometimes. We have so often derided the stupid AI that we forget that it sometimes does the right thing. Like building city walls while we get ready.

Reduce them to size one so they build units rather than walls. Even if we lose a few units, we can replace them. The AI can't. Time, or more properly, tempo is a battlefield element, too.

3) Getting locked into a mindset causes missed opportunities.

It never occurred to me to use Explorers (or wandering dips). I never build Explorers. Also, I got so caught up in the "total war" aspect of the game that I forgot, for a long time, to ask for maps.

4) There is one more element which was key to my game but, for now, I'll just say, "think outside the box." I don't want to be a spoiler.

The Monk thinking about doing a replay from 1480

	29-12-2002 05:36									#176
	Re: Good game, Git1!! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk 2) "do not attack until ready!"

Yep ... good advice! Always have another couple of heavies up your sleeve for a rainy day

Well done [1] … as I sat over your shoulder for much of the action I was frustrated by the lack of logistics and infrastructure. Nice game STYOM, said he contemplating another evil challenge for the graduates of the Institute!

-------------------------------

SG(2)

	30-12-2002 02:25									#177
	Oh boy oh boy oh boy! Inflate your Upload Space

quote: It wasn't Teo', definitely either Tlat' or Tex'. Probably Tex' based on proximity to our cities. Yeah, definitely, definitely Tex'. The problem seems to be that for non-Axtecs, all those "T" names look alike.

When you open up the posted 1520 save or 1620 save only Teotihuacan shows a defender (a lone Musk) when the cursor is on the city. Doesn't that usually only happen when it has survived an attack? If it were Texcoco assaulted under the Wabbit… why… ummpph, nevermind. I'll go nuts trying to figger it out.

quote: Stray founded to give EW passage of the American continent… Bow founded…

Aw, beat me to it!
Useless is one tile away from two possible canal sites, with suitable canal zone on the south side of the sea. This is of course the first priority! Ummm, right after some renaming: PisaToppled and Melboring.

Feels more like "Championship Migration Manager" than Civ. With the bulk of Apolytonish and captured cities far, far away (30+ turns by hoof; speak ye not of dragging Cats!) I hope there are enough forces in place and nearby to reduce the Aztec cities. Else Hydey will have to finish the road and Lafayette finish them off!

	31-12-2002 04:57									#178
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We used to have more Temples and Marketplaces. Somebody thought we didn't need them. There used to be Markets in a few of the larger conquered cities, and somebody thought we didn't need them either. Heck, our plans were simply to conquer 15 or 20 more cities, and sell any Markets in them, too. Just a little bit of ICS unhappiness… without trade routes to help make people happy. We merely start at black faces up through size 7 in every city. No big deal.

	31-12-2002 08:45									#179
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Stray, sorry to say, I can't remember which attack was which. All I can say is that I attacked 2 cities, each time with somewhere between 6 and 10 crusaders. One was definitely texcoco, the other was IIRC the first-discovered Aztec city.

One of those cities had walls. One of those cities had its flag fall. which? dunno. Could have both been the same instance or separate ones.

I tend to play tired and lubricated. If it doesn't make my logs, it's down to my memory, which can be horribly leaky at times. Now stop obsessing and finish it off!!

	31-12-2002 17:16									#180
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Straybow We merely start at black faces up through size 7 in every city. No big deal.

Black hat + HG = a very happy citizen. [rant]Unfortunately, some players went absolutely bonkers with irrigation and some cities have grown into unhappiness. I don't understand the continuing fascination with irrigation - have people been studying the AI's city management techniques? Repeat after me: shields, not food.[/rant]

@Stray: we weren't going for a high score game here; just use Elvis to keep cities out of disorder and continue cranking out the troops.