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	24-12-2002 19:11									#302
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	25-12-2002 00:52									#303
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	25-12-2002 17:03									#306
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	25-12-2002 20:02									#307
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Ho Ho Ho 1400BC movin on.

	25-12-2002 20:41									#308
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	25-12-2002 20:45									#309
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Thinking about an MP mod, I was contemplating the idea of giving lethal sea-bombardment capability for submarines. Perhaps relatively low value, but high fire rate, so that a single submarine can sink unescorted transports (without getting demaged!) and maybe 2-3 subs can sink a transport escorted by a battleship.

What do you think about this? Does anyone know if this idea came up somewhere already and if so what was the generic sentiment?

The perfect solution, of course, would be to create a cheap, cruise-missile type unit that can be loaded onto a submarine (8-10 of them) and that could hit only sea targets. This would be the torpedo. Only I don't think you can create such a unit.

	25-12-2002 21:33									#310
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Just thinking out loud -- suppose subs had practically no defense but very high lethal bombardment capability only at close range. That would simulate acutal sub capabilities -- if they attack you, you are dead, but they are slow and defenseless when you attack them.

You would not have to load a cruise-missle-type unit to simulate the torpedo, however.

I'm thinking that this would require little more than updating the bombardment capability and, maybe, actually slowing the subs down a square.

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	26-12-2002 00:03									#311
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	26-12-2002 00:55									#312
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	26-12-2002 01:57									#313
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr Just thinking out loud -- suppose subs had practically no defense but very high lethal bombardment capability only at close range. That would simulate acutal sub capabilities -- if they attack you, you are dead, but they are slow and defenseless when you attack them.

Yes, that's the idea.

quote: You would not have to load a cruise-missle-type unit to simulate the torpedo, however.

You mean there is another way to emulate torpedoes or this is a continuation of the above idea?

I tried to search for mods that tried to equip subs with bombard capability. I didn't find any but I came across the "Double your pleasure" mode. Now that's one massive mod. If you don't know it, check it out here. I couldn't find enough information about what the mod exactly does but it's impressive nonetheless.

	26-12-2002 02:08									#314
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	26-12-2002 03:14									#315
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Delmar

When I get immersed in this crazy game I "see" an attacking sub as firing torpedos rather than arty. (Doesn't the visual actually show a torpedo being fired?) So, the "normal" attack for me is already torpedos. What I'm saying is that loading a torpedo "unit" would be redundant. Subs have torpedos just like infantry have bullets.

Making a short story even longer, my point is that you can set up the idea you want without worrying about loading anything on the sub that will be used at sea. We just want

1. Subs win when they attack
2. Subs don't move rapidly
3. If you find a sub before it gets you, sinking it is easy.

IMO, of course.

Double your pleasure comes with PTW but is very complicated, don't you think.

	26-12-2002 04:15									#316
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr We just want 1. Subs win when they attack 2. Subs don't move rapidly 3. If you find a sub before it gets you, sinking it is easy.

Well, I would like to have a sub that

1. Doesn't get hurt when it attacks.
2. Can sink unescorted cargo ship.
3. Can't easily sink escorted cargo ship (but has a chance to).
4. Easy to sink if you see it or if you accidentally run over it.

I am not insisting on having a "torpedo unit" (in fact I don't think we could have one given the current editor). The main reson for mentioning it is not realism, but balance: if we had one, the sub would have to go back to the harbor from time to time. You are right that every unit in Civ seems to have an implied supply line that provides it with ammo, so it is reasonable that the subs have inifinite torpedo supplies as well, I am just a bit worried that this might make them very strong.

You are also right that the animation shows the torpedoes when the sub attacks. I tried the bombardment version and the torpedoes are shown even when the sub "bombards" -- really cool!

quote: Double your pleasure comes with PTW

That's right, although there is a newer version that you can download now.

quote: but is very complicated, don't you think.

It has a lot of changes, that's for sure. I haven't played it at all, so I can't say if it's complicated, bad or good. They did put an amazing amount of effort into it, that much is clear.

Have you tried to play it?

	26-12-2002 06:36									#317
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I'm sort of a chess player's civ fanatic. If I don't have a clue what is going on it's not much fun. I would need a better user's guide to double your pleasure I'm afraid. See you guys tomorrow.

	26-12-2002 09:34									#318
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Yeah, same here. I asked for a user guide on CivFanatics, they pointed me to an Excel spreadsheet. At this rate I could be reading the data from the Editor as well, I guess.

	26-12-2002 12:41									#319
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	26-12-2002 21:41									#321
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	27-12-2002 10:20									#322
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	27-12-2002 15:35									#323
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	27-12-2002 23:49									#326
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En route to Jshelr.

	28-12-2002 01:30									#327
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Guys, do we know if the game is really being played on Emperor level? These civs over here are going pretty slow on research for that setting, even though I'm feeding them gold to boost the speed. BTW, I agree with Spencer's point about the land area being large for a standard map. Maybe it is the continents setting with the least water, but the land area looks more like a large map. (I've got my usual 9 cities that signals the start of the unit buildup phase, but I'm nowhere near the other two and have lots of room left to expand.) BTW, usually on Emperor, the map generator is not so kind in its placement of the human civ. No crowding this time.

	28-12-2002 02:03									#328
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The difficulty level is Monarch.

	28-12-2002 02:09									#329
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1200BC on the way. It does look like a one or two continent map. The AI was set on monarch, everything else was random. Since there was 8 player positions it should be a standard map size. I think that its likely that the AI research will be slower than on an SP game.

	28-12-2002 02:10									#330
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Are any other games as far ahead as us?