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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:23
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After some thinking on the Presidential - Senatorial issue:
While I like more Spiffor's Parliamentary approach, Jack has his point, too.
It is true that all citizens are equal and must have a word in taking decisions, but it is not efficient nor fun to make a poll on every issue that must be decided. There are situations when a quick decision is needed and there must be a person (or a group of persons) who is able to take over the responsability. A minister is not available, a wrong decisions has been issued, etc; sometimes sh*t happens (sorry). We must have a quick decision force, so to speak.
Because some of us don't agree to give the President all these extra powers, I propose the following compromise:
We shall name a Ruling Body, a Council, that would take over the responsabilities/powers that Jack included for the President (not all of them; see below) while Spiffor has left completely out.
The members of the High Council shall be: the President, the Vicepresident and one more person, maybe a representative of the Senate (Chief Senator or something like this). Any order issued by the High Council must be approved by at least two of them.
This would make the VP more important, since he's not doing anything special, other than being a reserve.
Things the High Council could do:
- veto orders of the ministers, including orders of the President
- to settle disputes between contradictory ministerial decisions
- suspend a minister and appoint a temporary one, until the Senate gives its final vote on the issue
- issue any order that could be issued by a minister
- call a Senate meeting
Things the High Council will not be allowed to do:
- veto treaties/laws passed by the Senate
- declare war
- overrrule the decisions of the Senate
- suspend the Senate, the President, the VP or the Supreme Court
Maybe this can be refined further, but so far what do you think?
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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Actually, in my draft, the Prez is the one who decides when there is no order ready: quote:
When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team. |
To me, the Senate is a super minister when it wants to. Its primary purpose is not to replace an unavailable minister (this has been a terrible idea in the Civ3 DemoGame) completely, but to decide instead of letting ministers decide when it feels like it.
For example, let's imagine a Senator really wants a temple in Legopolis, while the Master Builder wants a barracks. The Senator will put the issue to the vote, and if more than 50% of the Senate agrees, then Legopolis will build a temple, exactly like if the Master Builder ordered to build a temple there.
2 days later, another Senator thinks we should research Iron Working next, rather than Writing (as per the Enlightened's plan). He puts this to a vote, and if 50% agree, our Civ will research Iron Working next.
Naturally, I don't think we should let these polls slower the pace of the game. If there is no time for a poll to be made, the minister's / president's decision should be applied.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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About the high council :
I think the Prez should ask for advice in the forum or to other people who attend the chat, when he has to take a decision in place of a minister or the Senate, but the decision is only his. Having a single authority taking responsibility in the end is the only way to get things done IMHO :doitnow: I fear the high council will create as much problems as it will solve them (like if a member of the council is also absent). 
About intelligence / spying : the Foreign Minister should be the one responsible, but should consult the Enlightened and the Military Architect about the need of info, and the money we're ready to pay. These consultations shouldn't be mandatory, to avoid blocking the system if one of those is unavailable.
About trade : I suggest this becomes a part of the Enlightened's duty, since it was part of the Ministry of Economy's duty in the Civ3 DG. It seems most logical to me, because the Enlightened worries about supplying the other ministries (with money, techs, and now resources), but I understand some people think it's more consistent with the FM's job.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Sorry, Jack, but I disagree with your presidential vision of our constitution, as I'd prefer a senatorial democracy. I fear your draft gives way too much power to the prez :
- The prez decides when there is no order available. Very good, he's the one who must do it.
- The prez can veto any treaties or laws passed by the senate. Why ?  How come the voice of one person can be more important than the voice of 20 ? Sorry, but this clause s a firm NO. I don't see how the team will profit from such an imperial clause.
- The prez' approval if needed for treaties, along with the senate's approval. Again, I don't see why the president should be bestowed so much power (an active veto power on any deal). For the same reason as before : why would one guy's opinion be more important than 20 ?
- The prez can deal directly with other teams when he feels it's important. Good, but he should do this only if the ambassador is unavailable. The ambassador position has been created to make a permanent and solid link to other teams. Having the president negociate on most important issues will show our rivals if they are deemed important or not. It will also reduce the importance of ambassadors, and partly demotivate them.
- The prez isn't member of the Senate, along with the VP and justices. I don't see why. We are a team, and everybody should have his say like anbody else. So, I say every member of the team without exception is a member of the senate, and gets to vote in all polls. It will be much more simple to keep track, and we won't fear the polls are rigged. Of course, you may disagree on this if you consider the Prez should be able to veto everything.
- If the senate disapproves a treaty signed by the prez, this treaty won't be binding. You can be sure to anger our partners if you betray a treaty "because the senate didn't vote it". Hence this clause is likely to ruin or reputation, or to have the senate always say "Yes" to the prez for fear of reputation loss.
Jack_www : sorry if I sound a little harsh, but this is a Democracy Game, and I don't think one player should have half the responsibility, otherwise the others will lose interest in the game.
I understand your views on the constitution are inspired by your country (I recognized many things coming from the US), but giving such power to the prez is useless in our 20-people Democracy, unlike in the 300-million-people American Democracy.
I'll write another draft representing a parliamentary view of the Democracy, which I think is much more adapted to our situation. |
About President. I am sorry about that I forgot to add one thing to it, that Senate could overide the veto.
It was my misstake.
About Treaties. I was molding it after what many nations do today. The President of nation signs the Treaty, then senate ratifies it.
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Jack_www
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I like the High concil thing that Tiberius said. But this is my vision of the government. I would like to have checks and balances with all branches of the government.
Checks President or High Council could have.
Can veto orders of Senate.
Apoints Judges to Court
Senate Checks:
Can overide veto by President.
Has to aprove all apointments by president
Has to aprove any deals signed by president
Can ovride orders of Minister, and issue its own.
Can remove a Judge if it is found they commit high crimes or nelegect their post
Can remove President if they are found to comit high crimes, or nelegect duty.
Can Remove Minsiter if they have found that they have commited high crimes or nelegected duty.
I also wanted not have anyone who is Pres. or minsisters or Judges to be apart of Senate, because this could cause conflicts.
Court:
They settle dissputes
They can interpet the consitution or orders made by Senate.
They can remove Senator if they are found to have commited high crimes against team
I wanted to make this clear in my posts, but I forgot to include many things in my draft. I want a blance of Power between all branches of government. Also I want to have President that can act when things are unclear or when a quick dession needs to be made.
Last edited by Jack_www on 23-11-2002 at 08:34
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:23
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I tried to create a balance of power, that would give the citizens the right and power to decide in every aspect concerning Legoland though their opinion and vote, creating in the same time institutions that can act and react smoothly and quickly in any situations.
Preamble
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so.
Article I: The citizens
Section 1: The Rights
As all the bricks in a foundation are equally important, so too are the citizens of Legoland. Ever citizen carries rights and burdens of responsibility that are no greater, nor no less than any of their fellows. All speak with an equal voice, and no voice should go unheard. So long as a citizen stays involved with the affairs of the land (posting at least every 4 days?), they may seek, or be appointed to, any office in the land. A civilization built on a foundation such as this shall no crumble from within, nor be toppled from without.
Section 2: The Responsabilities
It is every citizens duty to make known their thoughts on the state and future of our land. Only through open discussion can we find the proper path to choose from. It is also every citizen's duty to serve in the best interests of the land. A citizen must no willfully pass on information to our foes that would endanger our safety nor give away our secrets.
Article II : The executive branch
Section 1 : The President
- The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate. If there are more than 2 candidates competing for Presidency, two rounds of votes shall be organized. The 2 candidates who receive the most votes in the first round will meet in the final, decisive round.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidence.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her
own in the best interest of the Legoland team. If possible, he is strongly adviced to consult the High Council in taking those decisions.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negociate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negociate directly with the other team.
- can call for a mandatory government meeting when the situation requires it.
Section 2: The High Council
- The members of the High Council: the President and 2 members elected by the Senate every [TBA]. They cannot be ministers or judges.
- Only a member having PtW can be member of the High Council.
- the HC coordinates the individual decisions made by the ministers
- the HC shall settle disputes between contradictory ministerial decisions
- the HC can veto orders of the ministers, including orders of the President
- If an executive post becomes vacant, the HC can appoint a member to that spot, who will serve until the next election.
- the HC can suspend a minister and appoint a temporary one until the Senate gives its final vote on the issue
- can call for a mandatory Senate meeting, in crisis situations
- can call for a mandatory government meeting when the situation requires it
- all decisions of the HC shall be taken with a majority of 66% of the members. If one of the members of the HC is unavailable, the President' vote is the decisive one.
- the HC cannot override/veto orders/laws passed by the Senate
Section 3 : The Vice President
- he must be member of the High Council.
- Each member of the High Council will serve as VP for half a [TBA] term. The first VP is appointed by the President
- When the President is unavailable, the Vice President replaces him while the third member of the High Council automatically replaces the VP.
Section 4 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
- There are 5 ministers : the Head Engineer, the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Minister (to be renamed)
- The Head Engineer shall be responsible for movement of all workers and the improvement of lands.
- The Master Builder shall be responsible for planning of city production, as well as selecting suitable sites
for new cities. He is also responsible for keeping the citizens happy if possible, and to take care that law and order are applied in all of Legoland's cities.
- The Military Architecht shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term
strategic plans.
- The Enlightened (Minister of Science and Economy) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting
future courses of research. He is also responsible for keeping track of all trade treaties. He must initiate
new trade treaties when they become available. New treaties must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote.
- The Foreign Minister shall coordinate information from all ambassadors and keep track of treaties, etc. He
shall negociate whith other teams when the ambassadors are unavailable. He is responsible for gathering intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the High Council, the President or one of the Ministers. High risk intelligence activities, that could result in declaration of war from other nations, must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote. Should an ambassador be unavailable, the FM must take over his responsabilities.
Article III : the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of 66% of the votes.
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. This decision cannot be overruled by a member of the executive branch.
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers, the High Council or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate has power to approve or dissaprove treaties the President signs.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, the High Council or Justices of Court.
This removal requires 66% of the senate to pass.
Article IV : The Supreme Court
- The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the High Council at the beginning of his term.
- Judges can either be retained or removed by an incoming, new High Council.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with
severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- the court can remove citizenship if a Lego citizen is found to have commited high crimes against team
- Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.
Article V : Voting procedures
- Any voting procedure, regarding any subject, in any institution of Legoland, requires a majority of 50% + 1 of the votes to be declared valid, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution.
- In situations with multiple choises vote procedures, the option/candidate with the most votes is declared winner, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution.
- If any voting procedure ends with no clear majority (50%-50% situations) the Presidential vote breaks the tie.
- any voting procedure regarding any subject, in any institution of Legoland, requires that 50% of the members of the respective institution must vote, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution. Otherwise the vote is declared void and must be repeated.
Article VI : Amending the Consitution
- Any citizen can suggest an amendment to the Constitution
- Once a ammendment is drafted and supported by at least two other members of Legoland, it must be introduced to the Senate.
- The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives 66% of the votes. At least half the Senate must be present during vote.
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Eidted to add article I (thanks ZargonX), article V (about voting procedures) and VI (thanks Jack for the idea).
PS Let me know if a made missplellings, gramatical or semantical errors.
Last edited by Tiberius on 25-11-2002 at 11:48
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Article II : The executive branch
Section 1 : The President
- The President is elected every [TBA] by the members of the team.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidence.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, then the President can act on his/her
own in the best interest of the Legoland team. If possible, he is strongly adviced to consult the High Council in taking those decisions.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negociate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negociate directly with the other team.
- can call for a mandatory government meeting when the situation requires it.
Section 2: The High Council
- The members of the High Council: the President and 2 members elected by the Senate every [TBA]. They cannot be ministers or judges.
- Only a member having PtW can be member of the High Council.
- the HC coordinates the individual decisions made by the ministers
- the HC shall settle disputes between contradictory ministerial decisions
- the HC can veto orders of the ministers, including orders of the President
- If an executive post becomes vacant, the HC can appoint a member to that spot, who will serve until the next election.
- the HC can suspend a minister and appoint a temporary one until the Senate gives its final vote on the issue
- can call for a mandatory Senate meeting, in crisis situations
- can call for a mandatory government meeting when the situation requires it
- all decisions of the HC shall be taken with a majority of 66% of the members. If one of the members of the HC is unavailable, the President' vote is the decisive one.
- the HC cannot override/veto orders/laws passed by the Senate
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Here I see no checks that the executive has on the senate. Can you show be were the executive can check anything the Senate does? Cause here I see none.
quote:
Section 4 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA]
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I thought the whole team would electe them, but Senate is bascily whole team if we let everyone in it.
quote:
Article III : the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of 66% of the votes, at least 50% of the
senators must vote.
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. Such an order requires an absolute majority (50%) to pass. This decision cannot be overruled by a member of the executive branch.
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers, the High Council or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate has power to approve or dissaprove treaties the President signs with a majority vote of 50% of the senators.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, the High Council or Justices of Court.
This removal requires 66% of the senate to pass.
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Humm, seems to me the Senate is the most power full of all. The 2/3 vote on aproving people to apointments I think is to high, I think simple majority is fine.
Just removing Judges of President when ever they want? I would like to see some thing like they can be removed when they have done something really bad, like treason, or have nelegect post, or violate consitution. Something along those lines.
Also I was thinking of not having President or Judges to be in Senate, to avoid conflicts. Also I was thinking of having VP be the one who breaks any ties in the Senate if they come up.
Also side note, a majority is 50% + one vote of the total votes. But must of you already know that.
Last edited by Jack_www on 23-11-2002 at 21:59
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack_www
I thought the whole team would electe them, but Senate is bascily whole team if we let everyone in it. |
Yep, that's exactly what I thought (the whole team being called the "senate")
quote:
Humm, seems to me the Senate is the most power full of all. The 2/3 vote on aproving people to apointments I think is to high, I think simple majority is fine. |
I think you're right.
quote:
Just removing Judges of President when ever they want? I would like to see some thing like they can be removed when they have done something really bad, like treason, or have nelegect post, or violate consitution. Something along those lines. |
Again, you're right. We shouldn't let the executive enter a too big instability. However, to avoid writing a too long constitution, we should give general terms about the reasons of impeachment, like in your second draft. Not an extremely precise listing of impeachment-making faults.
quote:
Also I was thinking of not having President or Judges to be in Senate, to avoid conflicts. |
I think it might complicate things : if everybody is member of the senate, it will be much easier to keep track, and we'll be sure there is nobody who has no right to vote in the poll. I'd feel bad if I was a justice, and didn't have a say on the way the nation is going (I mean, a real say, through vote).
quote:
Also I was thinking of having VP be the one who breaks any ties in the Senate if they come up. |
Good idea, we need someone to break ties. I don't know if it's the role of the VP or the Prez. Since I don't like the veto of the Prez, I think it's a good idea to give him some edge with this tie-break power, rather than with a veto power.
quote:
Here I see no checks that the executive has on the senate. Can you show be were the executive can check anything the Senate does? Cause here I see none. |
Since everybody is a member of the senate in Tiberius' draft, the executive has a balancing role by being able to vote in the senate. We have 7 executive roles + 2 people for the high council, meaning the executive represents the majority of the senate. If it's united, it can clearly balance the power of other senators. 
On a more philosophical plane, I don't think we need to separate legislative, executive and judicial power, because my vision of ministers and Prez is this :
Since we, the whole team, won't discuss on every single matter, we elect people to take care of the menial tasks (moving workers, moving units etc.). However, we the team delegate power to the ministers, but do not give it completely. We can retake it whenever we feel like it (i.e decide on some issue, I don't mean firing the minister), and decide commonly on any matter. The minister has his say, like anybody else, when such a thing occurs.
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Jack_www
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well spiffor can you make a summery of you view so I can make a poll then?
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Jack_www
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well there is a lot that I agree with. I think the main difference is the Presidential veto power that I suggested.
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Jack_www
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Just so you know I am willing to back off my position, I will wait and see what poll results are though.
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Jack_www
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Besides if it gets to be a problem and we realy need it, we can add it latter.
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Jack_www
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Well I just though of a comprimise. I was thinking that the President, while he is in the game, can issue orders when the orders that were given to him would harm us or no longer valid. How about this?
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Jack_www
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why not have vp break the tie, to give him more things to do.
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Jack_www
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Preamble:
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so. In order to reach this goal we the people of Legoland here by form the government that willl rule the Legoland team.
Article I, Section I:
Executive Branch
The qualifications to be President of the Legoland team:
He/she must have PTW, so as to be able to play the game.
The duties of the President:
He/she is the one who will acually play the game for the team according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate.
When the wishes of the Ministers and Senate are do not come to the President in time or are harmfull due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
The President is the Head of State, meaning the foreign minister reports to him, and can not make deals with out the President and Senate approval.
Also if on one is holding the Vice President or any minister spot, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve untill the next election.
Section II:
Vice President:
Must be able to serve as President any at time.
He steps in when President cannot play the game.
Section III:
Ministers:
The qualifications to be a Minester or Ambassidor of the Legoland team:
They must be an active member of Legoland team.
(Post every week)
There are five minesters in Executive Branch:
-The Labor Minister (Head Engineer)
-The Interior Minister (Master Builder)
-The Defense Minister (Military Architecht)
-The Budget/Science Minister (The Enlightened)
-The Foreign Minister (TBD)
-The Head Engineer (HE) shall be responsible for movement of all workers and the improvement of lands.
-The Master Builder (MB) shall be responsible for planning of city production, as well as selecting suitable sites for new cities.
-The Military Architecht (MA) shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
-The Budget/Science Minister (TE) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research.
-The Foreign Minister shall coordinate information from all ambassadors and keep track of treaties, etc.
Section IV:
Ambassidors:
They deal directly with all other teams in the game.
They are primary ones who talk and negoicate deals with other teams. Allthough the President can also when leaders on other team are involved in talks as well.
They report directly to the Foreign Minister.
Article II, Section I:
Senate:
Qualifications for Senators:
Everyone is member of Senate.
Section II:
Powers of Senate:
They can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, or Justices of Court if they have comiited High Crimes or have abondon their post.
Once the Senate impeaches them by a majority then the Sumpreme Court hears the case and decides if enough evidence to kick the person out of the team.
The Senate will have the power to declare war on anther team, and this power will always stay in Senate.
The Senate has power aprove or dissaprove treaties the President signs. Untill Senate aproves the treaty it is not binding on the Legoland team. Once the treaty is aproved it is the law of the land.
The Senate can issue its own orders, and they must be followed over the orders of the Minsiters.
Article III : The Supreme Court
- The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the President at the beginning of his term.
- Judges can either be retained or removed by an incoming, new President.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with
severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- the court can remove citizenship if a Lego citizen is found to have commited high crimes against team
- Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.
Article IV:
Amdening the Consitution:
Once a admendment is drafted it must be introduced to Senate. The Senate must aprove it be a two thrids vote. At least half the Senate must be present during vote.
Article V:Elections
- Any voting procedure, regarding any subject, in any institution of Legoland, requires a majority of 50% + 1 of the votes to be declared valid, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution.
- In situations with multiple choises vote procedures, the option/candidate with the most votes is declared winner, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution.
- If any voting procedure ends with no clear majority (50%-50% situations) the Presidential vote breaks the tie.
- any voting procedure regarding any subject, in any institution of Legoland, requires that 50% of the members of the respective institution must vote, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution. Otherwise the vote is declared void and must be repeated.
All members of the Executive are elected by the Senate and need a majority or most votes if they have more the two people running.
Article VI: The citizens
Section 1: The Rights
[Somebody with better writer skills than me please help: I want to say that all citizens are equal, they have
the right to express their opinion on any matter concerning Legoland, they all have the same rights to be elected in any executive position, etc etc]
Section 2: The Responsabilities
[again: every citizen is responsible to act in Legoland's best interest, etc etc]
Edited: I think you can edit this directly. Apparently we can edit each others posts. Plase don't erase my draft, though
Last edited by Jack_www on 25-11-2002 at 01:30
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22-11-2002 20:57
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