26-11-2002 20:34									#31
	Support Apolyton

"I'm supposing what Drake was refering to was what the less interested parties (the greater National Audience w/o ties to Michigan or OSU) found appealing in the matchup."

True. True.

"I again assert it would have had national appeal as it would have been a do or die game (plus the fact you can count on both teams hating each other) for Michigan in order to make the playoffs."

It wouldn't have been the same.

	26-11-2002 22:49									#32
	Remove this text

Would the fans of both schools cared more or less about the OSU and Michigan game if a playoff system was in place vs the BCS...
probably about the same. Both schools fans are rabid about this game. Even if your season is a total bust, a win against the other school can make the year.

Would the attendence at the game be much different...
Maybe 1,000 less people... less than a 1% difference.
This game is one of the hardest tickets to get in college football, no matter what the standings say

Would the TV ratings be much different if their was a play off... I'll grant you they probably would be lower, but not by all that much. The ratings for games like this don't change all that much from year to year, no matter what the relative standings or impact on the current BCS system.

Was their more interest by people who weren't going to be watching the game in person or on TV... Well, yeah...
That I won't argue.

But with that being the case... With more teams with a shot to make the playoff... any loss you may perceive for this game, would be MORE than offset by other games that would now become important. Just think of the importance that would have been placed on the Washington/Washington State game. What is normally another great instate rivalry... would have had REAL championship impact. A win would have clinched a role in the playoffs for Washington State... Instead, with Miami almost locked to play in the championship game, the game was pretty much meaningless to a national audience. Multiply this for other teams that would have a chance to make it and you have far more excitement to the sport on a national basis vs just that which was provide by a single OSU/Michigan game.

You keep saying that the a playoff of 8 teams vs the current playoff of only 2 teams would make the regular season irrelevent...
I think that argument is completely wrong, and totally ignores the true nature of College football fans.

	26-11-2002 23:04									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I'm supposing what Drake was refering to was what the less interested parties (the greater National Audience w/o ties to Michigan or OSU) found appealing in the matchup.

Thank you, Ogie. This was exactly what I was saying.

I know damn well that the Michigan-OSU game will sell out every year, playoff or not. That's what great rivalries are like. But the national audience would not have been glued to their TV's on Saturday to watch the game if it hadn't had such huge national title implications. Miami fans were watching to see who their possible opponent might be. Oklahoma fans were watching, praying that OSU might stumble and give them a second chance at the title. Same thing for a number of other schools. And third-parties like myself were watching just to see if the Buckeyes could go undefeated.

With a playoff in effect, the national audience for that game would've been considerably less. Why watch when OSU already has a playoff spot wrapped up? The great Michigan-OSU rivalry isn't going anywhere, playoff or not. But it's great when these rivalries take center stage on the national scene because of their title implications. Michigan-OSU this year did that. Nebraska-Oklahoma did it last year. Great rivalries become even greater when the national spotlight turns on them because of the national title race. A playoff would eliminate all that.

And I love how you guys think I have no experience with heated rivalries. We do have a few good ones out here in Nebraska...

	26-11-2002 23:14									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes...Great rivalries become greater when the national spotlight turns on them because of a national title race.

But with 8 spots available instead of just two... EVEN MORE great rivalries would be forced into the national spotlight every year... multiplying that effect that you so desire

	26-11-2002 23:27									#35
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Spot on Ming

	26-11-2002 23:42									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: But with 8 spots available instead of just two... EVEN MORE great rivalries would be forced into the national spotlight every year... multiplying that effect that you so desire

There's a do-or-die atmosphere that surrounds every great matchup in college football right now that would be absent from a playoff system. Right now, if you beat your rival, not only do you further your own shot at the title, but you also destroy almost any chance your rival had. It's schadenfreude at its most entertaining.

To use an example (Nebraska of course ):

Last year's Oklahoma-Nebraska game was probably the best home game I've ever been to. #1 vs. #2 in one of the great rivalries in college football. Everyone was excited already because OU was in town, but the fact that it had a huge effect on the national title race made it even better. Gameday was in town for the game (second time that year) and the place was rockin'. You knew that one team was going home with their national title hopes destroyed and everyone loved it.

Would that game have been the same with a playoff in effect? I don't think so. Chances are, the loser of that game would still have been in the top-8 and would've made the playoffs if they had won out. So OU and NU could've played each other again in a playoff. If that happens, then what was the point of the first game?

A playoff takes away the do-or-die mentatilty that surrounds every regular season game in college football. It's like tightrope walking with a safety net. The spectacle will still be interesting, but removing the catastrophic failure that goes along with a mistake takes a lot of the interest away.

While games that have an effect on playoff spots would be more interesting than your run-of-the-mill game, they still wouldn't match the intensity of the current system. Michigan beating Ohio State to make the playoffs would be a good story, but not as good as Michigan beating Ohio State and completely ruining Ohio State's title run.

	26-11-2002 23:50									#37
	Suffering from ads?

quote: But the national audience would not have been glued to their TV's on Saturday to watch the game if it hadn't had such huge national title implications.

Michigan, if loses (as it does) misses the playoffs. If they win, they are in. That has great implications.

The one loss and you are out of every game in College Football is ridiculous. It doesn't show who is the best team.

You know what is a better story than your Michigan beating OSU and ruining their title run? Miami and Oklahoma playing a thrilling national championship after two rounds of great playoff games.

	27-11-2002 00:27									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Miami and Oklahoma playing a thrilling national championship after two rounds of great playoff games.

I bet Texas A&M would love to see that their upset of Oklahoma meant absolutely nothing.

If Miami beats Syracuse, should they bench Dorsey and McGahee for the Virginia Tech game? A loss won't keep them out of the playoffs, so why risk injury to your stars before the real season starts? Wow, this playoff idea keeps sounding better and better!

quote: The one loss and you are out of every game in College Football is ridiculous. It doesn't show who is the best team.

Some fan you are. You don't even understand what makes college football great.

	27-11-2002 00:31									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Pitt-Miami scores with TV viewers, too

Does anyone think this game would've drawn so much national attention if we had a playoff? The potential for a Pitt upset destroying Miami's title run made the game very interesting, something that wouldn't happen with a playoff.

	27-11-2002 00:32									#40
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Some fan you are. You don't even understand what makes college football great.

This from the man that thinks unless a powerhouse is playing, nobody cares. You are the one that doesn't really understand what makes college football great.
It's the love of the fans for the game, their dedication, their desire to not miss a minute of a game, even if their team isn't going to a national championship.

Your whole argument that a 8 team playoff vs a two team playoff would make the entire regular season irrelevent is simply absurd, and shows your lack of understanding of what makes college football great

	27-11-2002 00:33									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: I bet Texas A&M would love to see that their upset of Oklahoma meant absolutely nothing.

It shouldn't mean anything.

quote: If Miami beats Syracuse, should they bench Dorsey and McGahee for the Virginia Tech game? A loss won't keep them out of the playoffs, so why risk injury to your stars before the real season starts?

So you can get the highest seed. Oh, I didn't realize that in the NFL, if you have chance to get home field advantage teams just throw it away so their stars won't get hurt .

quote: Some fan you are. You don't even understand what makes college football great.

You mean what makes college football a bush league sport? The lack of playoffs prevents college football from being a good sport and more like a banana country election. Bush league, Bush league, Bush league!

	27-11-2002 00:43									#42
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Oh, I didn't realize that in the NFL, if you have chance to get home field advantage teams just throw it away so their stars won't get hurt .

The major-flaw in this oh-so-well thought out response is that there won't be home field advantage in a college playoff. Almost every playoff plan uses the existing bowl sites for playoff games, making every game take place at a neutral field. There's no home field advantage to play for, so why risk your stars? Maybe for a better seed, but you're going to end up playing the best teams anyway, so seeding really isn't that important.

quote: It shouldn't mean anything.

Thank god you're around. Every time Ming almost has me convinced that a playoff won't affect the regular season, you come along and say something retarded like this that just confirms my very worst fears. Way to respect the integrity of the regular season!

	27-11-2002 00:52									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: every playoff plan uses the existing bowl sites for playoff games, making every game take place at a neutral field.

Oh look at these words in my mouth. I wouldn't use existing bowl sites.

quote: Every time Ming almost has me convinced that a playoff won't affect the regular season, you come along and say something retarded like this that just confirms my very worst fears. Way to respect the integrity of the regular season!

To get in the Top 8, you kinda have to win just about all your games. If a team loses once they shouldn't be excluded.

You show everything that is wrong with College Football. Still stuck in the 1920s with your anti-playoff views that prevent a true national champion from being crowned.

NO, A&M's win over Oklahoma shouldn't mean a damn thing. Oklahoma should be able to face off against the OSUs and show that they are better (which they are, btw). Doesn't matter ONE BIT that they lost to A&M.

But of course, that means that a team can lose every game in the regular season and still make the Top 8. That is what your Chicken Little Act is insinuating.

	27-11-2002 00:55									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Pitt-Miami scores with TV viewers, too Does anyone think this game would've drawn so much national attention if we had a playoff? The potential for a Pitt upset destroying Miami's title run made the game very interesting, something that wouldn't happen with a playoff.

Would it have drawn as much attention as it did. Probably not... However, whenever Miaimi plays on ESPN they draw well. While you seem to be hanging your hat on 4.9 rating... that really means that 95.1% of the households in the US didn't watch It may have been the highest rated ever, but at this low level of ratings... we are only talking about a few 100,000 homes making the difference.

And your comment:

quote: I bet Texas A&M would love to see that their upset of Oklahoma meant absolutely nothing.

This again shows that you don't understand college football. You seem to think that all Texas A&M fans care about is knocking Oklahoma out of the Championship game... WRONG. They beat their rival Oklahoma... and that matters to them. The fact that it might have knocked them out of a chance of the title game may be icing on the cake, but an 8 team playoff would not change the fact the fact that they won. Winning matters to the fans. Try telling a Texas A&M fan that the game wouldn't mean anything if it didn't have national championship implications.

	27-11-2002 01:07									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: I wouldn't use existing bowl sites.

Good for you. However, almost every playoff proposal uses the bowls as neutral playing sites, so your plan is pretty damn irrelevant to this discussion.

quote: But of course, that means that a team can lose every game in the regular season and still make the Top 8.

Way to put words in my mouth. Very ballsy, considering you just whined about the same thing in your post.

Anyway, if you take the top-8 of the BCS right now, two two-loss teams will make the playoffs. And the 11, 12, 13, and 14 spots are all occupied by three-loss teams, so there is an outside shot of a three-loss team making the playoffs if things go their way. For example, if Colorado beats Oklahoma in the Big 12 championship game, they have a good shot of making the top-8 with three losses.

But we shouldn't hold three losses against a team, should we? Regular season games don't...

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui matter ONE BIT

	27-11-2002 01:13									#46
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: They beat their rival Oklahoma... and that matters to them.

When did Oklahoma and A&M become rivals?

quote: Winning matters to the fans. Try telling a Texas A&M fan that the game wouldn't mean anything if it didn't have national championship implications.

You're right about this one. I shouldn't have said that the victory "meant absolutely nothing"; I let hyperbole get the better of me and I apologize.

The victory would mean something, as every team likes to win and gain bragging rights. However, beating the best team in the conference (and possibly the nation) and knocking them out of the title race is a million times better than just winning a game. It's great to know that your upset kept the bully of the conference out of the title game. This wouldn't happen with a playoff and I think college football would be less exciting without it. But I'm sure you knew that already...

	27-11-2002 01:30									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're right about this one. I shouldn't have said that the victory "meant absolutely nothing"; I let hyperbole get the better of me and I apologize.

No need to apologize... I knew what you meant, but I couldn't pass that one up

quote: The victory would mean something, as every team likes to win and gain bragging rights. However, beating the best team in the conference (and possibly the nation) and knocking them out of the title race is a million times better than just winning a game.

I don't see how having an 8 game playoff would make much difference here. They still beat the best team in the conference, and one of the best in the nation. There fans went NUTS... Whenever underdogs win games, they are charging out on the field, taking down the goal posts... just like they had just one the national championship... I don't think the fact that they may have knocked them out of the championship added very much to their celebration

quote: This wouldn't happen with a playoff and I think college football would be less exciting without it. But I'm sure you knew that already...

Yeah... I think we both know each others opinion on this subject by now (500+ posts later)

But I still disagree. IMHO, it would just add more excitement because this type of experience would be multiplied by having 8 teams make it... setting up far more "what if" games.

Frankly, an 8 team playoff vs a 2 team playoff is not going to change the importance of the regular season to a teams fans. Winning the conference championship is still going to be important no matter what. Nebraska still wants to kill Oklahoma, Michigan loves to trash Ohio... and on an on. A playoff system isn't going to detract or change those rivalries. A few like you may miss the old days... but the majority will embrace it, and revel in the added excitment those playoff games bring.

One last time... I would like to see a champion prove they are the champion by playing the the best teams, not by just being better on paper

	27-11-2002 01:37									#48
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten However, beating the best team in the conference (and possibly the nation) and knocking them out of the title race is a million times better than just winning a game.

So you admit a one loss team might possibly be the best team in the nation. Shame that they would never be able to prove it in a post season.

	27-11-2002 01:42									#49
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Yeah... I think we both know each others opinion on this subject by now (500+ posts later)

500+ Eurocom-free posts. Best. Thread. Ever.

quote: Michigan loves to trash Ohio...

Ohio STATE! Why do you keep doing that?

quote: A few like you may miss the old days... but the majority will embrace it, and revel in the added excitment those playoff games bring.

I think you're right about this. I'm admittedly a college football purist, so my longing for the retention of the current system probably isn't shared by the majority of the country. I think that all of you are wrong and will miss the current system when its gone, but in the long run your side is probably going to win out. All the relevant factors are pushing us towards a playoff system, whether I like it or not...

	27-11-2002 01:50									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: So you admit a one loss team might possibly be the best team in the nation. Shame that they would never be able to prove it in a post season.

They shouldn't have lost to A&M.

I'm not obsessed with finding the "best team" like everyone else on this thread seems to be. I don't think it is even possible in D-I; there are so many teams in so many different conferences that even an 8-team playoff might leave out teams that are arguably the "best". Just look at Kansas State if you want to see a team that wouldn't make a playoff, even though they may be playing the best football in the country right now.

I'm more interested in rewarding the team that had the best season. I value consistent excellence over the course of the regular season more than getting "hot" at the end of the season and making a run through the playoffs. Call me crazy, but that's what I care about.

	27-11-2002 01:54									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

With regards to the argument that playoffs would make rivalry games less important...

In 1-AA, Montana State and Montana always play the last week of the regular season. Going into last week, Montana had beaten MSU 16 straight times; MSU hadn't made the playoffs since they won the national championship in '84. Coming into the game, MSU had won 3 straight games, while Montana had lost their first game since 2001 the previous week, meaning the winner of the game would win the conference and get the automatic bid to the playoffs.
You know what? The largest crowd to watch a sporting event in Montana showed up in the cold, blowing snow, to watch MSU knock off Montana, 10-7. Now both teams have playoff bids and there's the possibility of a rematch in 2 weeks.
Playoffs would offer the possibility of making great rivalries even greater.

	27-11-2002 01:54									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

I have to chuckle... you say:

quote: I'm admittedly a college football purist

If that was indeed the case, you would be attacking the current BCS system like devil that it is. In terms of College Football History, it hasn't been around all that long. I would think you would be harping to bring the real ole days... Instead, you are going against college football tradition by supporting this bastard that is the BCS. By doing that, you are saying you WANT a playoff system. And all most of us are saying is that it doesn't go far enough. If you truely want to match the best two teams in the nation for a real championship game, an 8 game playoff does that far better. As the BCS rankings shift weekly, and seem to have no basis in reality (see my earlier post), we can't expect this system to consistently match up the two best teams.

	27-11-2002 01:56									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm not obsessed with finding the "best team" like everyone else on this thread seems to be. I don't think it is even possible in D-I; there are so many teams in so many different conferences that even an 8-team playoff might leave out teams that are arguably the "best". Just look at Kansas State if you want to see a team that wouldn't make a playoff, even though they may be playing the best football in the country right now. I'm more interested in rewarding the team that had the best season. I value consistent excellence over the course of the regular season more than getting "hot" at the end of the season and making a run through the playoffs. Call me crazy, but that's what I care about.

Therein lies the core difference. I am interested in finding the best team to be crowned NCAA Div 1 National Champion. The best team in my opinion should be the one that weathers adversity and gets stronger and better as they play through the season. Granted even a playoff never truly answers which team is the best as it is single elimination but IMHO it beats by far arbitrary rule sets, rather than allowing true gridiron combat determine the outcome.

	27-11-2002 01:59									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: If that was indeed the case, you would be attacking the current BCS system like devil that it is. In terms of College Football History, it hasn't been around all that long. I would think you would be harping to bring the real ole days...

I'm only 23, Ming. I hardly remember the real ole days...

Not all of us are older than music itself...

	27-11-2002 02:02									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

23, then your being a purist is based on what? Since it's obviously not experience.

	27-11-2002 02:07									#56
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Not all of us are older than music itself...

While that may be true...

The current BCS system has only been around since 1998 So for the bulk of your life, you enjoyed college football without this "let the computer" decide who gets to play. So my comments stand

	27-11-2002 02:16									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: The current BCS system has only been around since 1998 So for the bulk of your life, you enjoyed college football without this "let the computer" decide who gets to play. So my comments stand

You got me. I'm not a "purist", I guess. I'm in the middle ground between die-hard playoff proponents like you and those who want to return to the old system like Kepler. I'm willing to sacrifice some tradition to determine a national champ every year, by matching the two teams with the best regular seasons together in a title game. But I don't want to completely change the dynamics of college football by creating a playoff system. Not such an outlandish position, when you really think about it...

It's always nice to be the moderate in any discussion.

	27-11-2002 02:20									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You got me. I'm not a "purist", I guess.

And worthy of some extra respect since you will admit an error when you post one and get called on it.

	27-11-2002 02:56									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by rah And worthy of some extra respect since you will admit an error when you post one and get called on it.

In actuality, Drake has been probably the most vocal supporters on the wrong side of the issue. Kudos to him to have the debating skill to hold his own against a pethora of opponents. Not that I bought his arguements mind you.

In the passage of this thread though he has admitted error a number of times besides the above. Included in these is the admission that a split '94 championship was probably in order, that the best team is not necessarily the NCAA champion under the current or previous system, and finally that rivalries are in of themselves interesting at least for the parties invovled.

Kudos Drake. You've argued long and hard and kept the Euros at bay for many posts.

Still doesn't change the fact that your a Big School, Husker maniac elitist who holds on to tradition because it serves big schools interests. Stubborn mule!

	27-11-2002 03:01									#60
	Support Apolyton

quote: kept the Euros at bay for many posts.

My most impressive achievement to be sure...