27-11-2002 04:09									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler We should go back to the Bowl system circa 1970. Restore the tradition of the Bowls and screw the national championship (which is an inane concept anyway). Let there be 5-6 major bowl champions (Rose, Cotton, Orange, Sugar, Fiesta, maybe another), another 10 minor bowl champions, and send more players and fans home happy. The obsession with the national championship is in microcosm everything that's wrong with college sports.

I actually kind of agree with this, I'm from Utha and except for 1984, no team from Utah is going towin the championship, especially in the BCS.

But, they get to go to bowl games every year and have a chance to win those game, thus ending their season with a win.

I think the playoffs, if implemented shouldn't use bowl game sites, there are a lot of teams besides the top 8 to fill those slots, they would also sell out the games and "travel well".

The top 8 shouldn't be in bowls at all, if there is a playoff.


ACK!

	27-11-2002 04:44									#62
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Good lord 'n' butter, I know I sound like a broken record, but... SCREW a top-8 playoff.

Under MY playoff proposal, the OSU-Michigan game remains very, VERY big. OSU loses, Iowa goes to the tournament, and OSU has to hope they qualify for that one wild card slot. Likewise, the Miami-Pitt game was, essentially, the Big East Championship, with the winner more or less assured of going to the tourney, the loser staying home.

Lessen the importance of the regular season... ha!

	27-11-2002 05:03									#63
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quote: Lessen the importance of the regular season... ha!

Yes, because Florida State has had a great season and are completely deserving of the playoff spot your plan would give them... ha!

	27-11-2002 05:07									#64
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Yes, they are deserving. They won the ACC, fair and square.

The only--ONLY--objective way to have a tournament is to have all the conference winners go, and fill out the remainder of the field according to STRICT criteria, no selection committees of RPI rankings allowed. Heaven forfend we allow performance on the football field decide who gets to compete for the championship...

	27-11-2002 05:12									#65
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NOT THAT I AM ADVOCATING THIS POSITION ANYMORE...

However
If they are conference champions... why not? It would really place a real value on the regular conference games. Win your Conference, get a shot at the big ring.
Every 1 - A team has a shot to win it all from starting at the beginning of the season. Every other sport rewards their conference champions with a shot at the big game, no matter what their record is. The fact is, they are champions to begin with... They have won the right.

This would also leave a bunch of great teams for the greedy Bowl Committee to pick thru like the vultures they are for their own profits.


Now that I've said that... Screw Florida State this year...
I would rather go with a playoff that includes ALL undefeated 1 - A teams, and next highest ranked number of teams needed to fill the top 8.

This gives a majority of all the teams that deserve a crack (and probably ALL of them most years) and a smaller conference team that somehow manages to not lose a game a chance as well.


OK Drake... go for it again

	27-11-2002 05:12									#66
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quote: Heaven forfend we allow performance on the football field decide who gets to compete for the championship...

How exactly does a plan that allows a three-loss team a shot at the national title place any emphasis whatsoever on on-the-field performance?

	27-11-2002 05:15									#67
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quote: I would rather go with a playoff that includes ALL undefeated 1 - A teams, and next highest ranked number of teams needed to fill the top 8.

I liked your idea of a playoff limited to unbeatens and one-loss teams better.
It wasn't perfect and I didn't like it better than the current system, but I could probably live with it. I'll never support a playoff that gives a team with more than one-loss a shot at the title, however. You might as well flush the regular season down the toilet right now...

	27-11-2002 05:18									#68
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Because they earned that shot by winning their conference, period. A tangible, concrete measurement of how they compare to other teams. Not some hopeless ephereal and ludicriously subjective combination of polls and computer rankings (which are, let's be honest, a single-person poll).

If you are the best team in your group of teams, then heck, you may just be the best team in the country. If you're only the second best team in your group of teams (2001 Nebraska, we're talking about you), then you're obviously not the best team in the country, and should content yourself with some other bowl game.

Christ almighty, this seems so simple to me.

	27-11-2002 05:23									#69
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quote: Because they earned that shot by winning their conference, period.

The conferences aren't anywhere close to being similar in talent levels or structures. To say that winning the MAC is just as impressive as winning the Big 12 is ridiculous. Hell, finishing sixth in the Big 12 is more impressive than winning the MAC!

quote: If you are the best team in your group of teams, then heck, you may just be the best team in the country.

The groups of teams aren't equal. And if you lose 2 or 3 non-conference games, I think we can safely say that you aren't the best team in the nation.

quote: Christ almighty, this seems so simple to me.

And that frightens me to no end...

	27-11-2002 05:24									#70
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There you ago again with the irrelevent regular season stuff again. It's only irrelevent to people who think the national championship is the only thing worth playing for. It's not. Every conference game will still mean a lot to those schools playing. Heck, Notre Dame can have it's own TV network in it's pocket... not because they win the national championship every year, but because their alums CARE A LOT ABOUT THE GAMES.

Stick with your "they don't deserve a chance" argument vs, the regular season will be made irrelevent. It will never be irrelevent... and if you can't see that, you don't know one darn thing about College Football.

	27-11-2002 05:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Because they earned that shot by winning their conference, period. The conferences aren't anywhere close to being similar in talent levels or structures. To say that winning the MAC is just as impressive as winning the Big 12 is ridiculous. Hell, finishing sixth in the Big 12 is more impressive than winning the MAC!

Again, who are you or I to judge which conference in better? I've certainly been more impressed with Marshall in the past few years than I have with the vast, vast majority of teams in the "Big Six" conferences.

	27-11-2002 05:34									#72
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quote: Stick with your "they don't deserve a chance" argument vs, the regular season will be made irrelevent. It will never be irrelevent... and if you can't see that, you don't know one darn thing about College Football.

Fine, it won't be "irrelevant". The regular season will still have some meaning, but it will be the same limited meaning you find in every other sport. The regular season will just be a means of qualifying for the post-season, with the occasional rivalry game to remind everybody of the good old days. The games will lose a lot of their thrill, since you're spotted one or even two losses before you drop out of postseason contention. And if you go with Guynemer's idea, you could loss three or four games, as long as you win your conference. The days of every game counting will be gone forever and I for one would miss it. I think college football is fun and interesting because it isn't like every other sport, but I guess only 31.25% of the population agree with me on that...

	27-11-2002 05:40									#73
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quote: I've certainly been more impressed with Marshall in the past few years than I have with the vast, vast majority of teams in the "Big Six" conferences.

Why? Because they put up huge numbers against MAC competition? They've only played two games against major conference opponents in the past two years and they got blown out in both of them.

2001 - Florida 49 - Marshall 14

2002 - Virginia Tech 47 - Marshall 21

Real impressive.

	27-11-2002 05:45									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Because they earned that shot by winning their conference, period. The conferences aren't anywhere close to being similar in talent levels or structures. To say that winning the MAC is just as impressive as winning the Big 12 is ridiculous. Hell, finishing sixth in the Big 12 is more impressive than winning the MAC!

And how will they ever be equal in our current situation?

Just because you are in a conference that has tough teams doesn't mean you are the best team in the country.

You can't finish sixth in the Big 12. You can finish last in the north or last in the south.



ACK!

	27-11-2002 05:47									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The regular season will just be a means of qualifying for the post-season, with the occasional rivalry game to remind everybody of the good old days. The games will lose a lot of their thrill, since you're spotted one or even two losses before you drop out of postseason contention.

Most of the rivalry games will still be played, if not all of them.

How many non-conference rivalries are there?


ACK!

	27-11-2002 05:53									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I've certainly been more impressed with Marshall in the past few years than I have with the vast, vast majority of teams in the "Big Six" conferences. Why? Because they put up huge numbers against MAC competition? They've only played two games against major conference opponents in the past two years and they got blown out in both of them. 2001 - Florida 49 - Marshall 14 2002 - Virginia Tech 47 - Marshall 21 Real impressive.

You do realize that Marshall has been a Div 1 school less than 10 years don't you?

That is why he is impressed with Marshall.

Look at Boise State this year, they also have only been Div 1 for a couple of years.

I am impressed with them this year.

ACK!

	27-11-2002 05:56									#77
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quote: You can't finish sixth in the Big 12. You can finish last in the north or last in the south.

Very true. Although they do release power rankings every week.

quote: How many non-conference rivalries are there?

I don't really understand where you're going with this, but I'll indulge you.

Florida - Florida State

Florida State - Miami

Notre Dame - USC

Colorado - Colorado State

Clemson - South Carolina

That's all I can think of right now, but I'm sure there are more.

	27-11-2002 06:04									#78
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Conference power rankings from the wonderful site JohnT found:

quote: Rank Strength Record College Conferences 1 1268 ( 29 - 10) The Big 12 Conference 2 1225 ( 30 - 10) The Southeastern Conference 3 1174 ( 24 - 9) The Pacific Ten Conference 4 1018 ( 25 - 12) The Big East Conference 5 773 ( 19 - 13) The Atlantic Coast Conference 6 662 ( 22 - 16) The Big 10 Conference 7 -95 ( 17 - 18) The Mountain West Conference 8 -703 ( 13 - 22) The Western Athletic Conference 9 -795 ( 13 - 23) The Mid-America Conference 10 -1051 ( 13 - 27) The Conference USA 11 -1126 ( 17 - 38) Division I-A Independents 12 -2349 ( 4 - 28) The Sun Belt Conference (I-AA)

http://www.phys.utk.edu/sorensen/ranking/

	27-11-2002 06:05									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't really understand where you're going with this, but I'll indulge you. Florida - Florida State Florida State - Miami Notre Dame - USC Colorado - Colorado State Clemson - South Carolina That's all I can think of right now, but I'm sure there are more.

What I mean is that MOST rivalry games are in conference games.

However, nobody said to get rid of non-conference games, so there would be no reason to lose the non-conference rivalries.

ACK!

	27-11-2002 06:07									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Fine, it won't be "irrelevant". The regular season will still have some meaning, but it will be the same limited meaning you find in every other sport. The regular season will just be a means of qualifying for the post-season, with the occasional rivalry game to remind everybody of the good old days. The games will lose a lot of their thrill

Again... you don't seem to get it.
Remember, we already have a 2 team tournament. A few more teams isn't going to change that. The games will NOT loss one bit of thrill.

Using your logic, nobody would even bother watching their team again now once they lose their second game.
AND THAT DOESN'T happen. People will continue to care about their teams. Michigan fans didn't watch the OSU/Michigan just because it might knock OSU out of the tournament. They watched it because they wanted to BEAT OSU... it's that simple.

For you to even think that a difference from a 2 team playoff to 8 team playoff will change how REAL fans root for their teams, you must be out of touch with reality.

In one of the OTHER sports you keep talking about, I go to opening day for the CUBS every year. (for the last 25 years)... I don't go because I think they are going to qualify for the playoffs and win the World Series (Lord knows I know that by now), I go to support my team, enjoy the thrill of baseball... real fans support their team no matter what.

If for you, the National Championship is the only thing that makes you watch your team... I feel sad for you.

	27-11-2002 06:10									#81
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I just meant that rivalry games would be the only games that would approach the do-or-die attitude that surrounded every game before a playoff was instituted. I don't know where you're getting the idea that any rivalries would be ended...

	27-11-2002 06:13									#82
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quote: If for you, the National Championship is the only thing that makes you watch your team...

That's what Husker fans are like. We've been spoiled...

I make up for it by being a Royals fan, however.

	27-11-2002 06:15									#83
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Uhh... every game still is life or death if the only way you can make it is to be one of the top 8 teams in the country.... you keep seeming to ignore that simple fact Every game will STLL BE IMPORTANT. We aren't talking about the NHL or Basketball where 40% of the teams make the playoffs. So stop your silly comparisons with things that arent' really comparable

	27-11-2002 06:26									#84
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quote: Uhh... every game still is life or death if the only way you can make it is to be one of the top 8 teams in the country.... you keep seeming to ignore that simple fact

That isn't a fact. You're spotted at least one loss, since there will almost never be more than 8 unbeaten and one-loss teams. And if your schedule is tough enough or you have enough reputation in the polls (FSU ), you could conceivably lose two or, in rare cases, three games and still make the playoff. Every game is still life or death, right?

	27-11-2002 06:30									#85
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By the way... it's under 30% again...

Yes... every game is still life or death. Sure, you might be undefeated until the last game, and you don't really need it to make the playoff... I'll grant you that one.

But once you've lost a game, you better not lose again, or you are risking not making it. And heck, if their are enough 1 loss teams, that might no be good enough to get in. So I stand by comment and laugh at your position

	27-11-2002 06:36									#86
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quote: By the way... it's under 30% again...

NOOO!!!

quote: So I stand by comment and laugh at your position.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this (and every other) issue...

	27-11-2002 06:38									#87
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Not every other issue... we do both like to annoy euro trolls

	27-11-2002 11:19									#88
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Now in the "proper spirit" of this thread...
We bring you...

Debunk Drake's Opinions #1

Drake has repeatedly stated that a 8 team playoff system would make the regular season meaningless.
And that it would be like the pro sports where the real season doesn't start until the playoffs.

Let's look at this opinion in a little more depth.

In examining the Four Major Professional Sports, how many teams do make the play offs, and why might one consider the regular season "meaningless"...

The National Basketball Association:
16 out of 29 teams make the playoffs = 55%

National Hockey League:
16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs = 53%

National Football League:
12 out of 32 teams make the playoffs = 38%

Major League Baseball:
8 our of 30 teams make the playoffs = 27%

In two of the sports... HALF the teams make the playoffs

Yeah... the regular season does seem meaningless in Basketball and Hockey... especially if you are a Chicago Bulls or a Chicago Black Hawks fan in 2002

In Football over 1/3 make it... not to bad, not quite meaningless. Especially since home field advantage is a real advantage in Football

Baseball is the best in the Pro Group... But even with 162 season being very meaningful, just over a quarter of the team make the playoffs.


Now... let's look at a proposed 8 game playoff system for 1 - A Football

8 out of 117 teams make the playoff = 7%
Yes fans... less than 1 out every 14 teams will make the playoffs. Hmmmm... seems like the regular season is REALLY important to me.

OK Drake, I can hear your response now. 117 teams include a bunch of teams from conferences that in your eyes don't even deserve to get on the same field as your powerhouse conferences... So lets look at what it would be if you just consider the Big10, Big12, Pac10, SEC, ACC, BIG EAST, and the Notre Dame Conference

That is still only 8 out of 63 teams = 13%
We are still talking about 1 out of 8 teams making the playoffs... Still making the regular season very important.

So... In Conclusion - FACT OR FICTION
Drake says that an 8 game playoff system would make the regular season in college football as meaning less as professional sports regular season games.

Answer... TOTAL FICTION

Please look forward for number two in this series.

This message is brought to you by: It's time to get the greedy Bowl Commitees out of the selection process Committee.

	27-11-2002 11:39									#89
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quote: We are still talking about 1 out of 8 teams making the playoffs... Still making the regular season very important.

But a playoff still makes the regular season less important than it is now. You are right in saying that, statistically, a playoff won't make the college football regular season as meaningless as it is in pro sports. However, it will still make the regular season less meaningful. Why would you want to do that? To take money out of the greedy Bowl Commisioner's hands and give it to the equally greedy NCAA? That doesn't seem like a very good reason to me.

I am flattered by all the effort you've expended to combat my arguments, however...

	27-11-2002 11:44									#90
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Ahhh... you seem to now be saying "less" important vs meaningless... We must be making progress on you

And don't feel to flattered, just having some fun in the proper spirit of this thread... and there is more to come after a little more research...

OH, and by the way... down to 27% now