01-12-2002 18:28									#31
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No we don't want round 3 you silly man. We want what's ours. That's all.. I mean, you don't even want Karelia that bad, but we want it. So why should we fight over it? We give you.. mm.. let's say few contracts of co-operation in business stuff, and .. let's say .. name your price?

	01-12-2002 18:36									#32
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quote: Anyhow he won this war, and gained what he wanted- 1)new territory for protection of Leningrad, which he was trying to trade peacefully before his proposals were refused.

Stalin wanted to conquer Finland and make it a part of Soviet Union, either de facto or de jure. SU's true goals should have been made abundantly clear by upgrade of "Karelo-Finnish" SSR to a republic status in 1940, clearly in preparation for the Finnish part of the equation to join Karelia, and by Soviet Union's attempt at constructing a puppet regime in form of Otto Wille Kuusinen's Terijoki government. Then there was that marching guide, detailing the pleasant little stroll Russians were supposed to have to Helsinki...

Leningrad protection was a smokescreen at most. If Finland had capitulated on Soviet demands then and there, our fate would have been the same as of the Baltic republics.

	01-12-2002 18:46									#33
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quote: 3) Japan didn't declared war on USSR.

Really? They did have many skirmishes... during the war...

quote: Nice joke. It comes from an American a citizen whose country is world's heavy weight champion of hypocrisy and switching sides.

Well at least the Americans know how to fight a war... because the Russians... hah! They suck. They march off millions of poorly armed men into machine gun fire... it was only when the Germans were overrunned with Russian troops was when they pulled out of Stalingrad. The Russians were probably the most incompetent fighting force at the time.

And to even show more incompetence look at Afghanistan. The Russian fought there for ten years using C-grade troops and terrible reserves, and they were finally defeated by a rag-tag militias. And then suddenly, the US goes in there and pushes the taliban out. That is a clear answer for who is more competent.

	01-12-2002 19:00									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka No we don't want round 3 you silly man. We want what's ours. That's all.. I mean, you don't even want Karelia that bad, but we want it. So why should we fight over it? We give you.. mm.. let's say few contracts of co-operation in business stuff, and .. let's say .. name your price?

You silly man, entire Finland rightfully belongs to Russia. We want wat's ours, no more, no less.
That's it. I'm going to return Ingremainlandia to Novgorod and take some more right now.
In my EU2 game of course.

	01-12-2002 19:03									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Stalin wanted to conquer Finland and make it a part of Soviet Union, either de facto or de jure. SU's true goals should have been made abundantly clear by upgrade of "Karelo-Finnish" SSR to a republic status in 1940, clearly in preparation for the Finnish part of the equation to join Karelia, and by Soviet Union's attempt at constructing a puppet regime in form of Otto Wille Kuusinen's Terijoki government. Then there was that marching guide, detailing the pleasant little stroll Russians were supposed to have to Helsinki... Leningrad protection was a smokescreen at most. If Finland had capitulated on Soviet demands then and there, our fate would have been the same as of the Baltic republics.

Fine, fine, answer one question then- if so, then why he ordered his forces to stop when they finnaly BROKEN the Manerheim line and the road for comlete occupation was clear? Why he agree to took only territories he wanted to trade before the war?

	01-12-2002 19:10									#36
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Feb. 20, 1938 - Hitler announces support for Japan
August 1938 - Korean border skirmish between Japan and Soviet troops
Aug. 20 - Zhukov defeats Japan at Nomonhan on Mongolian border
Aug. 23 - Nazi-Soviet Pact

1939
Sep. 17 - Russia invades Poland, Baltics, (Finland on Nov. 30)
Sep. 29 - German-Russian treaty partitions Poland

1941

June 22. Operation BARBAROSSA begins.
Dec 7 US attacked by Japan
Dec 11 Germany declares War on US

1945
Aug. 6 - Hiroshima - 20 kiloton Little Boy killed 80,000
Aug. 8 - Russia declared war on Japan
Aug. 9 - Nagasaki - 22 kiloton Fat Man kills 70,000
Aug. 15 - Emperor surrender broadcast - VJ Day

Japanese Occupation

Stalin kept 376,000 Japan soldiers of Kwantung army, put in Siberian gulags

Stalin refused to return 4 islands in the Kuriles that he called the Northern Territories, seized from Japan in the closing days of the war - no peace treaty signed between USSR and Japan

Fact it Serb. The Soviet Union collaborated with the Nazis until they turned on the SU and invaded. You go around calling everyone Nazis when your own country signed treaties with them. And about the Japanese, how brave of the Soviet Union to declare war on an enemy that had just been bombed with an atomic weapon.

	01-12-2002 19:10									#37
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Broke the Mannerheim Line? In which game or movie or fantasy? .

I guess he didn't want to continue the war that was costing so much? We were getting troops of Britain and so (though not sure if it would have happened, but Stalin didn't know that).

Besides, we don't belong to you.. how do you figure that?

Buuut.. you're welcomed here, again, like last time .

	01-12-2002 19:13									#38
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Do you know that Mannerheim didn't also inflict the most destruction that he could of? He didn't cut your supply lines for Stalingrad. It would have helped Nazis very very much, but he didn't do it. He didn't think we were going to invade you guys, so why did he settle for not doing it?
Because it would have pissed the other countries, allied.

If Stalin were to invade us, and not settle for Karelia, do you think allied would have loved it?

	01-12-2002 19:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Really? They did have many skirmishes... during the war...

Oh really... Tell us more. It's a new word in historical science.
1938 and 1939 gave good lessons to Japanese. After those two scirmishes they signed non-agression pact and turned in direction of USA as new (MUCH easier as the thought) victim for their attack. Since 1939 Japanese never attacked Soviets, because Zhukov kicked their asses so hard in 1939, that they didn't want to expirience it again, even when Hitler was several kilomiters away from Moscow and many thought that Soviets are history, even then they didn't dare to attack SU.

quote: Well at least the Americans know how to fight a war... because the Russians... hah! They suck. They march off millions of poorly armed men into machine gun fire... it was only when the Germans were overrunned with Russian troops was when they pulled out of Stalingrad. The Russians were probably the most incompetent fighting force at the time.

You &*&^@#$%@ ***** (*^*&%%#$ ***** (*^(*&% Spanish *@#(*^*^&**** *****ng, **#$**$%*$*, *#$)*&$*, *@&$***$@* and %)@#&%#$*@#$*. Typical: 1) %$#*#^#$%*
2) **$%^*(*#$ 3)
3) Fu@*$# Franco **%$#%$ admier.
4)EDIT: allright I was a bit drunk yesterday and a bit over-agressive. I withdraw this statement as silly and unnecessary.
5) and *%*#&
6) it is you who suck.
This incompetent force destroyed- overall 80% of German manpower and 75 % of tanks, planes, artilery and any other military vihecals. The Wermmach- conquerors of Europe, the guys who crushed France (I guess much more competent military in your eyes) within 40 days.

You just a #*@**$* *!**.(self-censored)

quote: And to even show more incompetence look at Afghanistan. The Russian fought there for ten years using C-grade troops and terrible reserves, and they were finally defeated by a rag-tag militias. And then suddenly, the US goes in there and pushes the taliban out. That is a clear answer for who is more competent.

1) We weren't defeated
2) When we left because of our internal problems we left pro-Russian government.
3) To owerthrow this government Americans used Taliban, not to mention they spend millions $$$ to ObL PERSONALY, when he fought vs. Soviets.
4) They weren't rag-tag militias, but guys trained by American instructors and supplied by American weapons.
5) We controled this MUCH larger then Vietnam country for ten years and lost less then 14 500 soldiers.
6) Americans lost about 60 000 in Vietnam, and when they withdrawn from there a Communist government was established.
7) Americans didn't conquered Afghanistan. Northern Alliance did it.
8) Without Russian who gave its contacts with Northern Alliance leaders it would be much difficult for USA to did, what they done.
Sure it's news for you, but while Afghanistan was under embargo (initiated by USA iirc, not sure about this) WE supplied Northern Alliance- our former enemies. Because in modern conditions we had common enemy- the Taliban. We started to supply it 2 years before Sept 11. Northern Alliance done the job, Americans just bombed the Taliban- THEY FORMER ALLIES IN WAR VS SOVIETS. Their favorite tactic- to bomb enemy from safe distance and let somebody else to risk their necks (N.A.) and after proxy army lost a lot of people in fight for victory, claim that its American victory. Very honest I bet after 30 years no one will remember about Northern Alliance and how many those people lost, only anout American super-mega-warriors.
*throw-up*
Have a nice ****ing day
I'm out of here.

	01-12-2002 19:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Feb. 20, 1938 - Hitler announces support for Japan August 1938 - Korean border skirmish between Japan and Soviet troops Aug. 20 - Zhukov defeats Japan at Nomonhan on Mongolian border Aug. 23 - Nazi-Soviet Pact 1939 Sep. 17 - Russia invades Poland, Baltics, (Finland on Nov. 30) Sep. 29 - German-Russian treaty partitions Poland 1941 June 22. Operation BARBAROSSA begins. Dec 7 US attacked by Japan Dec 11 Germany declares War on US 1945 Aug. 6 - Hiroshima - 20 kiloton Little Boy killed 80,000 Aug. 8 - Russia declared war on Japan Aug. 9 - Nagasaki - 22 kiloton Fat Man kills 70,000 Aug. 15 - Emperor surrender broadcast - VJ Day Japanese Occupation Stalin kept 376,000 Japan soldiers of Kwantung army, put in Siberian gulags Stalin refused to return 4 islands in the Kuriles that he called the Northern Territories, seized from Japan in the closing days of the war - no peace treaty signed between USSR and Japan Fact it Serb. The Soviet Union collaborated with the Nazis until they turned on the SU and invaded. You go around calling everyone Nazis when your own country signed treaties with them. And about the Japanese, how brave of the Soviet Union to declare war on an enemy that had just been bombed with an atomic weapon.

Excuse me, are you nuts?
Do you think army could be teleported from Europe to Far East within TWO DAYS?
We ahd an agreement with USA, after the war vs. Germany will be over, SU should declare war vs. Japan within 90 days. All this time since end of war in Europe Soviets re-located their forces to Far-East, considring how much was done, how many people and machines were re-located in less then 90 I'm really surprised. You think Soviets could defeat 900 000 Quantun army using forces of Far East district?
You are damn ignorant people Americans, first you sign agreement and demand, D E M A N D help, then when we fullfill terms of agreement you call as cowards. Nice.

quote: Fact it Serb. The Soviet Union collaborated with the Nazis until they turned on the SU and invaded.

Every majore power in Europe collaborated with
the nazis, at the same scale then. Read about foreign policy of GB and France in 30s more, then we'll talk. Stalin was the winner of this diplomatic match, but far not the single player.

	01-12-2002 19:48									#41
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Pekka, later. I'm really have to go now. Sorry men.

	01-12-2002 19:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Every majore power in Europe collaborated with the nazis, at the same scale then. Read about foreign policy of GB and France in 30s more, then we'll talk. Stalin was the winner of this diplomatic match, but far not the single player.

Then quit your *****ing and be more careful about who you call a Nazi in the future. And get over this need to defend Russia against every little thing. Just admit that the SU was wrong to invade Finland.

	01-12-2002 19:59									#43
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War which was ment to last 2 weeks, but continued 105 days.
Stalin shifted the Finnish foreign policy radically towards Germany by his attack.

Sad and unnecessary war, IMO.

	01-12-2002 20:01									#44
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Sigh, this is pointless...

	01-12-2002 20:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash Mita kuluu, ystava!

I'm fine, thank you. how are you?

	01-12-2002 20:06									#46
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quote: Sigh, this is pointless...

I read you're post and mostly agree with it, if you're interested.

	01-12-2002 20:10									#47
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Yea, I come back and people are just arguing about whos evil and whos incompetent...

	01-12-2002 20:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Yea, I come back and people are just arguing about whos evil and whos incompetent...

did you expect holding hands maybe.

	01-12-2002 20:27									#49
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Serb, ok, have a good one.

	01-12-2002 21:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash In my opinion the Suomi are the purest kindest wisest folk in the world.

Purest I rather doubt. After centuries of being alternately the a** b***h for Sweden and Russia/USSR. I suspect they are as ruthless, Machiavellian, and clever in international politics as any. And more power to them for that. They sure as hell needed those characteristics in that neck of the woods.

	01-12-2002 22:05									#51
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Lefty, well it's not our fault you know.. sometimes when I go to the supermarket to get some marlboros, I have to fight polar bear, and maybe even some wolves. And we have tight gun control, so it's pretty much hand to hand.. or should I say hand to claw fights. It makes you tough let me tell you that one. In winter time, when there's no food and it's cold, you have to kill few bears to get yourself warm coats, and maybe wild horse to get something to go with your bread.

And you have to cross those frozen lakes that always brakes when you walk in it, so you have to learn to swim in freezing water, alter your body so you won't die because you went for a coffee with your buddies.

	01-12-2002 22:21									#52
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quote: Purest I rather doubt. After centuries of being alternately the a** b***h for Sweden and Russia/USSR. I supect they are as ruthless, Machiavellian, and clever in international politics as any. And more power to them for them. They sure as hell needed thoses characteristics in that neck of the woods.

I'll take that one as a positive comment.

	01-12-2002 22:21									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Serb 4) typical gay

Am I the only person that saw that? God, what a numskull.

	01-12-2002 22:52									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka ps. we will take Karelia back!

Crappers.

	01-12-2002 23:00									#55
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Dont you Rasbelin try to say otherwise! It's ours, it belongs to us. You know it, I know it. I know it would be economically a bad move even if we got it for free, but hey, it's a matter of principal here.

	01-12-2002 23:01									#56
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Anyway, what's the clue with this thread?

Bash the USSR for attacking Finland? Well, let's say that the real reason for capturing Finland can be explained in many ways.

First of all Stalin wanted to gain control in the region of the Baltic Sea as it was agreed in the secret Ribbentropp-Molotov treaty. The Germans would take most of Poland, while the Russians would take Estonia, Latvia and Lithunia, plus Finland as agreed in the secret additional paragraph. The other reason for taking Finland was that it would allow access through Lappland and by that you could capture the Swedish Lappland with it's iron reserves. Well, they didn't succeed so Germany got the chance to get iron from the Swedes by trade.

Regarding the Russian troops I have to stress that they were indeed well armed and trained, but the Finns were more comfort with the winter conditions and the Russian tactics of taking over Finland in 2 weeks as Stalin claimed was too unrealistic. Of course this has to do with that the Red Army had lost good officers as Stalin has excuted or sent to Siberia many of them, because of very various reasons, so that hampered the Red Army in general. Overall the Russians should also have tried to keep up a better morale and reinforced more heavily.

	01-12-2002 23:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Dont you Rasbelin try to say otherwise! It's ours, it belongs to us. You know it, I know it. I know it would be economically a bad move even if we got it for free, but hey, it's a matter of principal here.

Mein Gott, Pekka. You're one of those right wing supporters that want to re-establish the borders of the Tartu peacy treaty from 1922. Bollocks, come on. You're only a few hundred activists or something like that.

I accept the deal, but as I've previously stated, I require as a condition that any costs caused by this must be paid by these fanatic pro Karelia activists as I'm not going to pay a one single cent for Karelia.

	01-12-2002 23:05									#58
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Armed properly, yes.. clothed? hmm.. don't think so.
Trained? Don't know about that either. Maybe some where, certainly not the whole army.

	01-12-2002 23:06									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Dont you Rasbelin try to say otherwise! It's ours, it belongs to us. You know it, I know it. I know it would be economically a bad move even if we got it for free, but hey, it's a matter of principal here.

Finno-Russian War II? Go Finns!

	01-12-2002 23:07									#60
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Rasbe, No way am I right wing. My friends bash me for being too left, and they're not right either. I'm in the center. There's nothing right wing to want the justice to happen. I'm not looking for fighting Russians, that is not what I want. They must come to their sences and hand it to us!