02-02-2003 06:51									#331
	Tired of ads?

1) Angus NW, then N
Or N then NW - don't forget that that notch on the east coast NE of Angus probably means a 90 turn in the coastline (or at least it did both times on the Legos Major continent)

2) Settler to found Red Bricks, Merced to fortify there
Hmm, might want to consider sending Merced toward Farmerville after RedBricks is founded so that we can have 2 military units in the region to corner the barbs and their camp or to deal with the unhappiness in Farmerville.

3) Gaul E, then, NE, NE
Agreed

4) Conan SW, then W, NW
Sounds good - let's see what he uncovers first for the later turns

5) MercG SE, then S
Agreed

6) Archer SE, attacking the barbarian
Don't see any other alternative - also should move Merced to the region as stated above

quote: the western coast of that new land is our primary interest, I believe, so I would stick to it as much as possible

Err yes, but not if it takes us too far west (at least until we have our ship ready in Panama) For me the most important areas on Legos Minor are from Angus's current position to the hilly area to the north as those lands are too close for comfort to our core area and also a possible future area of settlement.

The new table is good - the tan color is ok I suppose (I like blue but that is my favorite color so I am biased) - one suggestion might be to put the population in thousands for now- so 28, 24, 20 and 30 instead of 0,028 etc.

One concern re: demographics is that we are starting to fall behind in several categories - pop, GNP, Mfg Goods and especially productivity (which I recall we have led for most of the game).

Any chance that we can have another superimposing of our current map with the other civ maps within the next few turns?

	02-02-2003 14:03									#332
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by vondrack What about this?

Now it is ugly as hell! . Please put back your green. Your tactic to show me something uglier than before has worked again



PS I am being serious. You don't have to modify it every time I'm saying something. Just put back the green or the grey (I liked that, don't know why did you abandon it), so whichever you like more, and finish the damn table.

	02-02-2003 17:58									#333
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't understand. In the main Lego forum, it appears to me that the last post in this thread was at 3.51 AM, but my post above was at 11.03.

I'm just curious what will it show now.

Edit: it is OK now. Forget this post

	02-02-2003 19:54									#334
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Now it is ugly as hell! . Please put back your green. Your tactic to show me something uglier than before has worked again

I was not using any tactics... not now, not before. I really did my best to come up with a color that would be milder than my green, but not that "loud" (Sharpe even seemed to like the tan colour)... but if you do not like it this way either, then... it seems that our colour tastes are too different.

One thing I may have not stressed: my goal is to make the table match at least a bit the colour appearance of the Chronicle in general (that's why I disliked that light green so much, it was just sticking out of all the other pictures there). Juggling with all those colors, an idea crossed my mind... here it is:



The background is now very "civvish", as I have stolen the texture from the Civ3 F1 Screen (but it is used on various other screens, too). This is now my personal preference, since it sticks so nicely "to the theme".

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius PS I am being serious. You don't have to modify it every time I'm saying something. Just put back the green or the grey (I liked that, don't know why did you abandon it), so whichever you like more, and finish the damn table.

It's the boredom of the recent turns that make me spend time on such a silly stuff like the coloring of my summary table... if there was a more serious agenda... Anyway, unless someone tells me it's so awful now he would have to quit his Legoland membership, I will use the Civ3 background. Period. No more discussion. No more suggestions, thank you very much.

	02-02-2003 20:12									#335
	Put an end to popups!

Actually I like this latest version the best - a nice neutral color with a marble like pattern in it (again I am biased as I like marble patterns lol).

Odd though that our greatest debate in the game so far has been to discuss the colour and structure of this table.

quote: Anyway, unless someone tells me it's so awful now he would have to quit his Legoland membership, I will use the Civ3 background. Period. No more discussion. No more suggestions, thank you very much.

Yes, El Presidente! Your order is received and understood (just kidding)

Well at least that's over and we can get back to discussing the game in this thread.

	02-02-2003 22:38									#336
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vondrack I was not using any tactics... not now, not before. I really did my best ...

I know, I was just kidding (and teasing you). Sorry, I really appreciate your effort to please me

quote: unless someone tells me it's so awful now he would have to quit his Legoland membership, I will use the Civ3 background. Period. No more discussion. No more suggestions, thank you very much.

If you don't change the current color, I'll quit the Legoland membership

just kidding again, sorry; silly habbit. I like this latest version of the table, really. My suggestion is too keep it; oh, sorry, you said no more suggestions. I withdraw my latest suggestion

	02-02-2003 22:50									#337
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You know, the funny thing is, I'm pretty sure real governments spend even more time squabbing about equal as minor things (possibly more minor).

So, I guess I'm saying that we seem to be right on track!

	03-02-2003 03:16									#338
	Suffering from ads?

Radek, I really hate to bother you again, but any chance to "stole" the yellow too, from the F1 screen? It's not important, really, only if you find it appropriate and have the time.

	03-02-2003 03:21									#339
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, Tiberius, Radek admitted that:

quote: The background is now very "civvish", as I have stolen the texture from the Civ3 F1 Screen (but it is used on various other screens, too). This is now my personal preference, since it sticks so nicely "to the theme".

Hopefully we don't get sued by Infogrammes or Firaxis for this...

	03-02-2003 10:50									#340
	Suffering from ads?

I was talking about the other yellow, that used to underline changing figures.

Edit: Nevermind, I can see now that yhe yellow was changed, too.

	03-02-2003 12:04									#341
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I was talking about the other yellow, that used to underline changing figures. Edit: Nevermind, I can see now that yhe yellow was changed, too.

Yep, the yellow is a bit milder than it used to be in my first designs, to better match the current header field texture. The problem with taking exactly the yellow from the Civ3 F1 screen is that the table fields needing to be "yellowed" change (almost) every turn. As long as I use an Excel-native colour, I can avoid having to manually colour the fields by using the conditional formatting. That would not be the case with a different tint of yellow, which I would have to insert using PhotoShop (that's how I make the marble civ pattern for the header fields - but since the header is always at the same place, I can create a template in PhotoShop, saving myself from a repetitive/laborious colouring).

	03-02-2003 16:06									#342
	proposed plans for 1910BC Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK, the Chronicle has just been updated. Movement/action proposal for 1910BC:

1) Farmerville Archers SW, attacking the barbarian, then back N to the city
2) Gaul NE, then NE again
3) Angus N, then NE
4) Conan W NW, ignoring the barbarian, then W.
EDIT: as per Tibi's suggestion, Conan shall make use of the forest defense bonus.
5) MercG S, then SE, SE, then E-E-E W-W-W... to the Farmeville area
EDIT: W-W-W, of course... MercG would not make a good swimmer in all that armour, I guess. Thanks, Tibi - you know that I keep confusing West for East and vice versa...
6) Leopold NW, then NW again, then irrigate & road

As for Leopold, I believe we should do our best to keep Panama growing steadily at +2 food/turn at least until pop 3. For that, we need to irrigate the riverbank plains tile. As roading the uncleared jungle tile would take 5 turns, I believe it will be better to skip the jungle tile for now, improving the plains tile first, getting back to the jungle tile only then, possibly clearing it prior to roading (clearing would effectively take only 9 turns then, since we would save three turns on roading).

Last edited by vondrack on 03-02-2003 at 17:03

	03-02-2003 16:43									#343
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

1. of course
2. yes
3. N now, yes
4. I'd attack the barbarian and move W after, but not a strong preference, though.
However, even if he won't attack the barb, I'd move him NW (in the forest), not W. I know we have a huge bonus against barbarians, but even so, why not take advantage of the forest's combat bonus?
5. Khmm, when did MercG learn to swim?
MercG S, then SE, SE, then W-W-W
6. Yes, I suppose it's OK

After finishing the mine, Jason should move to mine the grassland SE-E from Legopolis, correct?

Last edited by Tiberius on 03-02-2003 at 17:09

	03-02-2003 17:00									#344
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 4. I'd attack it and move NW after, but not a strog preference, though. However, even if he won't attack the barb, I'd move him NW (in the forest), not W. I know we have a huge bonus against barbarians, but even so, why not take advantage of the forest's combat bonus? 5. Khmm, when did MercG learn to swim? MercG S, then SE, SE, then W-W-W

ad 4) good suggestion, let's move him to the forest (NW) and then W onto the hill; incorporated into the proposed plan
ad 5) Sure, corrected.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius After finishing the mine, Jason should move to mine the grassland SE-E from Legopolis, correct?

Yep, exactly (I haven't mentioned that, since he will spend the next turn finishing his current mining assignment).

	05-02-2003 03:46									#345
	proposed plans for 1870BC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, another less than exciting turn... Movement/action proposals for 1870BC:

1) Angus NW
2) Gaul NE, then E
3) Conan W, then NW
4) MercG SE, then SE, then westwards to the Farmerville area
5) Merciless SE-SE, then S, then SE, then back to Jackson
6) Jason SW-SW-SW, then mine
7) Leopold NW, then irrigate & road
8) Farmerville Archers N to the city, then to fortify there
9) The new Farmerville worker N, then mine & road

ad 1) it's quite likely that the western coast turns to the North one tile NW from where Angus currently stands - let's check it. I would now stick to the western coast of those new lands, unless it takes Angus too far away... that is, as long as the coast runs mostly northwards.
ad 5) a new Merc will be ready in 2 turns - that would be enough to defend Jackson against any barbarian raids (barbarians can't make it to Jackson quicker than in three turns). So, let's use Merciless there to complete our exploration of the east coast SE of Jackson.

Just a note regarding this thread... I believe it serves very well the purpose of "very short term strategy" discussions. I would keep it that way, having our ministers to use their respective threads for "longer time" strategy discussions. For the moment, I would like to have Zargon propose/discuss the following:

1) new production for Panama (another Merc?)
2) new production for Farmerville (Worker or Settler?)
3) next production for Legopolis (Settler, using a Panama Merc as an escort?)
4) next city site (for the Legopolis settler)

I assume that Jackson shall start a wonder prebuild immediately after finishing the current Merc and that Red Bricks shall build at least two workers before changing build orders.

	05-02-2003 04:20									#346
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

1) Angus NW
I disagree - given the existance of the hills I would head north instead then either NW or onto the hills.

2) Gaul NE, then E
Agreed

3) Conan W, then NW
W or NW would be best since both are hills

4) MercG SE, then SE, then westwards to the Farmerville area
Agreed

5) Merciless SE-SE, then S, then SE, then back to Jackson
Agreed

6) Jason SW-SW-SW, then mine
I disagree - I don't think we yet need another mine there for Legoland, besides that square is the only place that we will be able to continue the irrigation from Legoland to Jackson eventually - probably that square should be irrigated not mined. Might be better to either mine one of the hills for Jackson or to send him south of Legoland to mine the grassland there and begin the road southwards.

7) Leopold NW, then irrigate & road
Agreed - irrigate first of course

8) Farmerville Archers N to the city, then to fortify there
Agreed

9) The new Farmerville worker N, then mine & road
Hmm, wonder if it might be preferable to mine/road the wheat first as that square will be continually used, while the bonus grassland won't. Admittedly the bonus grassland is one turn closer to Red Bricks which will need extra shields soon.

	05-02-2003 10:22									#347
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with Sharpe on all but 9; on that, I'm undecided. It needs to be either the second or first tile worked, but it can only be irrigated, so it won't help with Farmerville's production problems.

	05-02-2003 11:53									#348
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

1. Angus
I agree with Sharpe. N+NE or NE+N, either way, heading for the hill

2. Gaul
Agree

3. Conan
I'd prefer NW now (but W is OK too)

4. MercG
Yes

5. Merciless
Yes, with one tiny question: shouldn't we send him to Legopolis instead (after his ocean trip)

6. Jason
Agree. Sharpe, an irrigation now wouldn't give us any advantage: it doesn't give us extra food in despotism, while a mine would give us an extra shield. We could mine a hill too (and we shall a liitle bit later) but that would mean slower growing. Besides, mining a hill would take too long, I think the worker should return to work Jackson earlier than that.

7. Leopold
OK

8. Archer (name? Bowman?)
OK

9. New worker (name?)
Definitely the grasslands first. We need badly production in Farmerwille, it is growing fast enough to grow, faster anyway than producing settlers.

As for the extra questions, my 2 cents:
1) mercenary
2) settler
3) mercenary (we should let is grow a bit; we would profit from a bigger Legopolis in the long run: it would build faster mercenary+settler pairs)
4) What settler?

	05-02-2003 12:55									#349
	Increase Your PM Length

Whoo-hoo! I just hit 400 posts with this! A hundred more until I get an avatar of my very own!

arty:

	05-02-2003 13:06									#350
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 1) Angus NW I disagree - given the existance of the hills I would head north instead then either NW or onto the hills.

I can see much disagreement with moving Angus NW. Well, let's move him N and then NE onto the hill, no problem... The reason for proposing NW was that I somehow feel all that land over there will be nothing but a very big peninsula, not a true landbridge to another continent. I would like to see as far into the ocean to the west as possible, to get a clue about how difficult it is going to be to cross the water there. The eastern coast of the peninsula could be charted only later on... but as I've said - let's move him N, NE, if everybody but me prefers so.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 6) Jason SW-SW-SW, then mine I disagree - I don't think we yet need another mine there for Legoland, besides that square is the only place that we will be able to continue the irrigation from Legoland to Jackson eventually - probably that square should be irrigated not mined. Might be better to either mine one of the hills for Jackson or to send him south of Legoland to mine the grassland there and begin the road southwards.

As Tibi points out, Legopolis will quite often operate at pop 4. It currently has only 3 fully improved tiles, so we would be losing production unnecessarily. It shall take Jason four turns to build a mine there (including 1 turn needed to get there), which is okay considering the growth of Jackson that has improved tiles enough for the time being. Once the mine is finished, Jason shall return to mine & road the hills in the Jackson radius. Also, one thing I might mention - building one improvement does not affect the time to build another improvement there. So if we build mine now, use it for a couple hundred of years and then irrigate, the irrigation will take just 2 turns as usually.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe 9) The new Farmerville worker N, then mine & road Hmm, wonder if it might be preferable to mine/road the wheat first as that square will be continually used, while the bonus grassland won't. Admittedly the bonus grassland is one turn closer to Red Bricks which will need extra shields soon.

Mining a floodplain tiles is not an option. You can only irrigate (2 turns) and road (2 turns) floodplains.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 3. Conan I'd prefer NW now (but W is OK too)

I prefer W to make sure we will be able to see all the shrouded tiles to the west. Moving Conan NW might leave one tile shrouded.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 5. Merciless Yes, with one tiny question: shouldn't we send him to Legopolis instead (after his ocean trip)

Well, I do not think so. He will eventually be needed in Jackson to fulfill MP duties. Legopolis, OTOH, shall never need any MP, as it will never be more than pop 4. If there is a barbarian alarm in Legopolis, Jackson Mercs would be there in 2 turns - that's quick enough. Also, it is likely that sooner or later, another barbcamp will emerge in the Northern Mountains - a Jackson based Merc will be better positioned to take it out.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 9. New worker (name?)

I'd go for Jimbo. I liked that name.

	05-02-2003 13:30									#351
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Well, I do not think so. He will eventually be needed in Jackson to fulfill MP duties.

Yes, but until then there is a lot of time and the same reasoning with the barbarians is true vice-versa: Merciless could arrive in Jackson in 2 turns.
Also Legopolis will grow from time to time to size5 (see my table I sent to you)because of the grassland we are going to mine now. Anyway, if we send Merciless back to Jackson, we will need sooner or later a mercenary in Legopolis.

	05-02-2003 13:46									#352
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Yes, but until then there is a lot of time and the same reasoning with the barbarians is true vice-versa: Merciless could arrive in Jackson in 2 turns. Also Legopolis will grow from time to time to size5 (see my table I sent to you)because of the grassland we are going to mine now. Anyway, if we send Merciless back to Jackson, we will need sooner or later a mercenary in Legopolis.

I think there will always be the Merc from the Merc+Settler pair? Pop 5 should be hit just before spitting out the settler part of the pair, right? But no problem, we can move Merciless to Legopolis for now, that was not a strong preference of mine.

	05-02-2003 13:56									#353
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Your right about the mercenary from the merc+settler pairs. Let's keep Merciless in Legopolis until the first merc is built and then move it to Jackson.

	05-02-2003 21:30									#354
	worker action times Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

With the steadily increasing number of worker jobs to be done, I thought we might make use of a handy table showing how long it will take to get usual worker jobs done (the picture will remain on the server, so feel free to bookmark it):



No colour proposals this time, please, let me have my strong yellow.

	05-02-2003 21:36									#355
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like your strong yellow combined with grey

Thanks for the table; quite useful, IMHO.

	07-02-2003 07:10									#356
	plans for 1830BC Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK, finally something happening or soon to be happening... Movement/action proposals for 1830BC:

1) Angus N, then N again
2) Gaul E or NE (?)
3) Conan NW, then N
4) MercG SE, then westwards to the Farmerville area
5) Merciless S, then SE, then to Legopolis
6) Jason to mine
7) Leopold to irrigate the plains, then road
8) Farmerville Archers to fortify in the city
9) Jimbo (the new Farmerville worker) to mine the bonus grassland, then road
10) the new Jackson Merc to fortify in the city
11) Jackson to start a wonder prebuild (Palace)

ad 2) I would prefer moving Gaul E, to see as much of the sea as possible, then NE, then into the village. If he appears right next to a barb camp, attack immediately.

What we really need now is to decide about the production in Farmerville. I have just learned from an info page over at CFC that the rush unhappiness affects just one citizen (or whatever number of citizens were used up in the rush) there, so the Archers shall be MP enough up to pop 4. We could therefore go straight for a settler, if we wished... That said, I would still prefer making one more worker that would start building a road network to the SW/S/SE- sending settlers along roads shall save us a LOT of time.

	07-02-2003 07:45									#357
	Increase the size of your Attachments

1) Angus N, then N again
Agreed

2) Gaul E or NE (?)
Agreed with East - perchance we might leave a black spot inland but we would uncover it when we go into the hut; and we would see more sea with East.

3) Conan NW, then N
Agreed with NW, but wait to see about N

4) MercG SE, then westwards to the Farmerville area
I don't know if we will uncover anymore, but it can't hurt I suppose

5) Merciless S, then SE, then to Legopolis
Agreed

6) Jason to mine
Ok, you've won me over to this ...

7) Leopold to irrigate the plains, then road
Absolutely

8) Farmerville Archers to fortify in the city
Not sure whether we should fortify - might need to rush to protect the worker from new barbs.

9) Jimbo (the new Farmerville worker) to mine the bonus grassland, then road
Agreed

10) the new Jackson Merc to fortify in the city
Yes.

11) Jackson to start a wonder prebuild (Palace)
Hmm, you know I am starting to wonder if Legopolis might be a better Wonder city than Jackson - as Jackson will max at size 6 with still 1 food in surplus while Legopolis could grow to size 8 and could use those rivered hills to get extra commerce. Admittedly we would have to deal with the extra unhappy people in Legopolis but...

Size 8 Legopolis 0 surplus food, 17 shields, 16 commerce (18 if remaining 2 hills were roaded) with 3 hills mined

Size 6 Jackson 1 surplus food, 15 shields (but would probably lose 2 to waste), 5 commerce (max 7 if hills were roaded but probably would lose one to corruption)
with 2 hills mined

Admittedly it would only be 2-4 shields per turn and would perhaps be less shields initially, but look at all the extra commerce per turn!!

I agree with Vondrack about building an extra worker to pre-work the roads for the future settlers especially in the south.

	07-02-2003 09:05									#358
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

One problem with Legopolis as Wonder City is you cannot use the Palace as a prebuild. Plus Legopolis fits very nicely for our REX objectives. I would stick with the original plan.

All other moves, I agree with Sharpe comments.

	07-02-2003 11:37									#359
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

1) Angus - N
2) Gaul - E
3) Conan - NW
4) MercG - SE
5) Merciless - S
6) Jason - mine
7) Leopold - irrigate
8) Farmerville Archers - ? could fortify or just stay still
9) Jimbo - mine
10) the new Jackson Merc - fortify
11) Jackson to start a wonder prebuild (Palace)

Sharpe, you are right that Legopolis would be a good wonder building city, but right now, with the help of the granary they will turn into a very good REXing city. Maybe after 4 or 5 settlers and a temple, we could build a wonder with them (we ought to, actually, cause we want them to be the world's No.1 city, ain't we? ).

I agree too about the extra worker. How about naming him Raoul, Robbie or even RoadRunner, to remember that he must road.
Btw, we should get back Conan in time to protect the new worker when he ventures far from our cities.

	07-02-2003 13:05									#360
	Tired of ads?

Great, we seem to pretty much agree on all the moves. lmtoops and Tibi correctly point out that using Legopolis as a wonder building city is now not an option - the granary we are soon going to complete there would have been wasted and it would take quite some time before we'd be able to build another one in Jackson.

Besides, Legopolis is better positioned - settlers from there will be (a bit) closer to their destinations. I would not worry about Jackson being unable to go over pop 6. I am quite certain that other teams have no city like that they could set to build a wonder.