01-01-2003 07:42									#91
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Actually, I think Howard and Angus would reach the isthmus at the same time (6 turns to the plains square).

If that is the case, I would suggest that Howard continue to the isthmus and Angus do a little exploring around the mountains near Legoland initially then start heading southeast.

One question I have is what shall our 2nd city build first? A warrior or a merc?

If the 2nd city (we REALLY need to name this) builds a warrior we should keep Legoland on the Merc. If Angus goes to both mountains it will take him about 4 turns to get around to them both and that would only leave 3 turns until the Merc is completed. The warrior would only take a max of 5 turns (unless we mine).

Meanwhile I think Conan should continue his southern exploration especially as I suspect that there is someone below us remember that before our borders expanded we were in 6th place in disease with 11% (1 of 9 as jungle or floodplain) - it also appears that we have found the southern end of the jungle this turn as well.

I agree that Conan should head south next turn then turn back later one turn or two later to that hut.

Btw Vondrack - just need a little edit in the 3100bc chronicle as the population should be 1 not 3.

	01-01-2003 14:30									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Actually, I think Howard and Angus would reach the isthmus at the same time (6 turns to the plains square). If that is the case, I would suggest that Howard continue to the isthmus and Angus do a little exploring around the mountains near Legoland initially then start heading southeast.

The problem with this solution is that our Settler could still theoretically end up next to a barbarian village after moving to the designated site of the second city. Even though I admit that the probability is not that high, IF it happened, it would be a disaster. Losing a settler is much like being thrown back to the beginning of the game. The only way to make sure the settler stays safe is to have Howard check the sea-cow tile prior to moving the settler to the city site.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Btw Vondrack - just need a little edit in the 3100bc chronicle as the population should be 1 not 3.

Yup, thanks. Corrected. I usually take one of the older chronicle entries and "reply with a quote" to have something to start with (all the links and formatting)... I sometimes forget to update some of the less important data.

	01-01-2003 15:21									#93
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Well...

Being asked by Jack to play the turn, I had to take the decisions. I basically did what I proposed in my last pre-turn post in this thread.

In order to ensure our Settler remains safe from barbarians, I moved Howard so that he will be able to check the sea-cow tile early next turn. This tile has been out of our sight for too long (it will be like 7-8 turns)... if a barbarian village emerged there while Howard was exploring the Northlands, we would lose our Settler on the next turn (as his view now is blocked by the last hill and he would spot the village only after moving to its immediate vicinity).

Second, in order to seal the isthmus ASAP, I sent Angus along the hills to N, planning to move him NW-NW-NW-W-NW. Taking this route, he will arrive at the isthmus in the same time (6 turns), but will be able to see more while on his way.

Third, to prevent leaving Legopolis undefended for too long, I changed the production from a Merc to a Warrior. This will delay the production of our Second Settler by 2 turns, but thanks to spending less time at pop 1 once the second Settlers is completed, the second Merc will be done only one turn later compared to the original schedule. See my calculations, updated for the extra warrior:



The table also shows that the Merc will be ready just in time to prevent any disorder at pop 3, allowing the extra warrior to set out exploring the Twin Peaks area and then southwards something like two to four turns prior to the Merc being completed.

Besides taking these decisions, I moved Conan as agreed upon before and told the worker to extend the road towards the second city site. Pottery will be discovered on the next turn (it was not possible to lower the research budget).

For the next turn, I suggest taking EXACTLY the following steps:

1) After discovering Pottery, choose Mysticism as our next research goal (it's the less appealing of the two cheapest unknown techs).
2) Move Howard East, upon the hill, and make sure there is no barbarian village on the sea-cow tile.
3) If there are no barbarians, move the settler NE to the designated city site. If there are barbarians there, hold the settler.
4) Let Conan pop the hut.
5) Whatever happens, set our research goal to Writing. Should we get THAT lucky and get Writing, go for Map Making. Set the research slider to 100%.
6) Move Angus NW.

	01-01-2003 15:27									#94
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NOTICE

On the next turn, I intend to delete some of the files related to the first ten turns from the server. I will leave only the most important illustrations there, trashing savegames, F11 & F1 screens, plus most city screens.

Should anyone wish to keep these files for future reference, download them to your machine, please, they will no longer be available online.

	01-01-2003 22:09									#95
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Who can argue that kind of logic, not I. I support all your moves.

	01-01-2003 23:14									#96
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Who can argue that kind of logic, not I. I support all your moves.

lmtoops, I am a bit uncertain now if you just like how nicely I put the words together to support my decisions or if you really think I did the best.

Anyway...

I played the turn very safe, taking no risks at all, at the expense of sacrificing a bit of our expansion speed. Playing SP, I would probably be more daring... but this demogame is a different beast, unnecessary failures would cost us dearly. We can't just Ctrl+Shift+Q... Considering our favourable starting location, I do not feel we are hard pressed to expand as fast as possible. I believe we can afford the luxury of being a bit cautious.

But that's just my point of view. If others prefer taking more risks, I would like to hear so. Whoever plays the turn shall play whatever the team wants to, not what he prefers to (Remember the second goody hut? I suggested we'd leave it be, majority said we'd pop it. I popped it and we got the Warrior Code... majority was right, I was wrong.).

I would appreciate everybody speaking his mind. Jack and me would better know how to play in case there are no set orders or something unexpected makes set orders more or less obsolete or too risky (like getting the GoW minimap did, IMHO).

	01-01-2003 23:57									#97
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quote: 5) Whatever happens, set our research goal to Writing. Should we get THAT lucky and get Writing, go for Map Making. Set the research slider to 100%.

I am sorry , but I STRONGLY disagree with this!!

While writing would be beneficial it is obvious that we are not likely to encounter any civs anytime soon unless they are south of us or beyond the isthmus.

We need to start uncovering the horse and iron strategic resources as soon as possible - or at least one of them.

While we have the capability to make mercs now, it is very likely that if we don't start researching either one of the the two techs we will be stuck. The others will know where the iron is and we won't and they will have the capability of building 3-2-1 units which have a decent chance of destroying our mercs.

Meanwhile our best counterunit the bowman would have the same probability of destroying their swordsmen.

Furthermore, we will also only have infantry units and not any mounted units to deal with situations which we must get there quickly!

While I agree with getting pottery first, we should get one of iron working or the wheel next then writing.

	02-01-2003 01:01									#98
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completely off topic-
But I have finally been able to make contact!!!
I haven't had good chance to get on the internet because I have just moved to New Zealand.

	02-01-2003 01:08									#99
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Happy New Year, Sharpe!

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe While writing would be beneficial it is obvious that we are not likely to encounter any civs anytime soon unless they are south of us or beyond the isthmus.

Well, this is actually exactly my reason for considering Writing and Map Making topmost priority. Judging from various bits caught through the public forum and private chats with other teams plus the RP & GoW minimaps, I fear that the map is two continents, one with five civs (ND reportedly has contacts with FOUR other civs, putting these five on the same landmass), the other with us and one more one (either beyond the isthmus, or down across the jungle). There still is a possibility that the map is pangea, of course, but out of my experience, I doubt that.

This means we have very little to fear as far as another civ attacking us is concerned - the isthmus would be easy to defend and jungle blocks mounted units from carrying attacks (either completely or effectively), but have quite a lot to fear as far as isolation is concerned. Making contact with other civs ASAP is what we desperately need - staying isolated will inevitably lead to getting behind in tech race. Catching up could be very difficult.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe We need to start uncovering the horse and iron strategic resources as soon as possible - or at least one of them.

Well, as for the Wheel. Wheel allows Chariots to be built, provided we have Horses. I can see very little tiles that could have Horses and even less of such that are to remain outside our territory in the near future - we are going to settle (and road!) the grassland areas anyway. And even if we got lucky and had Horses... Chariots would be quite useless to us. First because they can't operate in jungles, second because we are very unlikely to expand beyond the isthmus in the near future. Settling the jungle areas in the south is what we are likely to do first, considering the corruption and defendability factors. Thus, what use Chariots would be to us? We could use them as mobile forces in case someone invades our corelands... but archers and a fine road network will do that job, too. Thus, I can't see what kind of benefit learning Wheel actually brings.

As for the IW. Allows Swordsmen to be built, provided we have Iron. We are likely to have some Iron in our core area, but again - we are going to settle that area anyway (at least the "V"-shaped hill range). As for actually building Swordsmen - that will not happen for quite some time, as we will be cranking out Settlers, Workers, and Mercs for at least a thousand years. Anything else would be just wasting resources (IMHO, of course).

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe While we have the capability to make mercs now, it is very likely that if we don't start researching either one of the the two techs we will be stuck. The others will know where the iron is and we won't and they will have the capability of building 3-2-1 units which have a decent chance of destroying our mercs. Meanwhile our best counterunit the bowman would have the same probability of destroying their swordsmen.

The chances of a Swordsman to destroy a Merc are exactly the same as the chances of an Archer to beat a Swordsman. The difference is in costs:

Archer = 20 shields
Swordsman = 30 shields
Numidian Mercenary = 30 shields

I guess this shows that anyone attacking us would be at a disadvantage, since our archer+merc forces would be having 50:50 chances of repelling the invasion, while costing less shields. Sure, having Swordsmen would be nice, but would just improve our situation, not make it significantly different. I would rather have three archers than two swordsmen...

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Furthermore, we will also only have infantry units and not any mounted units to deal with situations which we must get there quickly!

Well, as I mentioned before, the jungle severely hampers any fast manoeuvres in the south. Chariots can't even enter it, Horsemen would be as good as foot units there. If we are speaking about our core area, a good road network we shall build anyway will do the trick.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe While I agree with getting pottery first, we should get one of iron working or the wheel next then writing.

There is one more reason to go for Writing and Map Making:

1) suppose we are on a continent with just one more civ. Our primary goal then should be to get off this continent and make contacts with overseas civs. Otherwise, we would inevitably get behind in tech race.

2) suppose we are on a pangea. Other civs are closer to each other than we are to any other civ (otherwise, we would already have visitors knocking our door). It is much more important for them to research these techs than it is for us. Researching the same techs would limit our trading possibilities. Having Writing (maybe even Map Making!) would be awesome tech-trading-wise. I am sure we would be able to trade for the Wheel and IW (if not with someone else, then with GoW or RPers).

And the final note: researching the Writing is now a ministerial order. Should you wish to change it, you will have to set up a poll about it.

	02-01-2003 02:16									#100
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Happy New Year to you too Vondrack and to the rest of Legoland!

quote: researching the Writing is now a ministerial order. Should you wish to change it, you will have to set up a poll about it.

Spiffor's reasoning for Writing is now partially out-of-date as it was assumed at the time that he made his order that GoW was probably on the isthmus and that we would be able to trade techs with them (especially military techs). However, a few hours later when we received the minimaps from GoW, it turned out that our assumption on the location of GoW was vastly incorrect.

I agree that The Wheel may not necessarily be a good choice due to the large concentration of jungle and mountains nearby and admittedly Iron Working is still expensive and admittedly that these techs will also lower in price as more civs get them.

However, I think that we need balance in our tech choices. I would normally agree with getting writing and map making as early as possible. But I think that we do need to get another military tech in between those two at least.

It would take at least 15 to 20 turns to get those two techs and probably more as we can't keep at near 100% tech for that long and the game will have changed a lot by then. It is possible that we may need military units by that point and we won't have them.

What I would want to see is another tech cost chart if possible. If writing will take about 10 turns max, I would agree with that; however, a weakness of writing is actually the many branches it opens - there will be temptation to go next into the techs it opens. We should thereafter instead research one of the military techs to maintain balance.

	02-01-2003 02:37									#101
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We might have to go into a tech the writing opens to us: if the isthmus leads to only a small landmass and we are on an island, Map Making should become top priority for us.

	02-01-2003 02:48									#102
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Tiberius,

I am not necessarily completely opposed to writing. You do bring up a possible good motive for getting writing - it would give us that map making option along with plenty of other options plus the ones we have now.

If the isthmus area is small we will likely have at least one city site there and if we are on an island we would likely have another non-jungle site south of the jungle at minimum

However,

- the next tech beyond writing was already being suggested

- several other people here have mentioned that they favor going after one of the military techs next

- the situation and assumptions that were in existance when Spiffor made the writing choice have changed a little bit

- no poll on the tech choice or info about tech costs was posted this time

	02-01-2003 02:49									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe It would take at least 15 to 20 turns to get those two techs and probably more as we can't keep at near 100% tech for that long and the game will have changed a lot by then. It is possible that we may need military units by that point and we won't have them.

Well, the only tech in question right now is Writing (80 beakers, if I am not mistaken). I mentioned Map Making only for the unlikely case we get Writing from the hut (highly unlikely, I'd say). Should we get Writing "free of charge", I would consider it just great to get Map Making (120 beakers) - which allows sea exploration! - so much ahead of others, while actually sacrificing very little in terms of research...

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe What I would want to see is another tech cost chart if possible. If writing will take about 10 turns max, I would agree with that; however, a weakness of writing is actually the many branches it opens - there will be temptation to go next into the techs it opens. We should thereafter instead research one of the military techs to maintain balance.

I am not 100% sure about my numbers, as I did not factor in the corruption, but according to my calculations, Writing should take 10 turns to discover, while Map Making (in case we get Writing from the hut) would be 13 or 14 turns.

After 10-14 turns, I do agree that we shall reevaluate our research strategy, as a lot can happen.

	03-01-2003 04:08									#104
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Looking at the most recent turn, I'd say we have a few "military" decisions to make. My suggestion would be to send Coward on an Easterly course into the hills. this should give us a good idea of how far the jungle really goes on. As for our newest addition, Gaul, I'd send him southwar along the coast for a while.

Are we still sending Aggie over to cover the isthmus? I noted the turn-around, but I wasn't quite sure the reason.

On a side note, I'm beginning to think that the barb setting for this map may be very low to none. In a normal game, I would have expected to have seen at least one or two wander in by now. If that is the case, that could be good for us. That means less chances for warmongers to level up their units fighting barbs, also denying them gold from disbanding camps. It also means we are safer from barbs coming in and tearing up our improvements. Of course, I could be completely wrong, and a hoarde could be lurking just through the palm trees...

	03-01-2003 04:24									#105
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Are we still sending Aggie over to cover the isthmus? I noted the turn-around, but I wasn't quite sure the reason.

I thought we were sending him there. No idea what led Jack to turn him back.

	03-01-2003 04:36									#106
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Why did Angus return to Legopolis, only he knows Maybe his compass got broken and NW seemed SE to him. Or maybe he is the real coward, not Howard.

Anyway, in the current situation I think Howard should move West (toward the ishtmus), Gaul should move South (to explore the new grassland area) while Conan East (to explore the jungle). After recovering from his out-of-city panic, Angus should move SE, to the Poor Twin peak and stay there to protect our worker from any possible threat.

Next turn, we'll have a new city. Howard's Hill, Jacktown, Jackville, Port Lego, ... ? We should really name it finally.

	03-01-2003 04:45									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Anyway, in the current situation I think Howard should move West (toward the ishtmus), Gaul should move South (to explore the new grassland area) while Conan East (to explore the jungle). After recovering from his out-of-city panic, Angus should move SE, to the Poor Twin peak and stay there to protect our worker from any possible threat.

Yep, that's exactly what I would suggest. Howard will reach the isthmus in the same or less time as anyone else, so it makes sense to send him there. Gaul shall really speed up our exploration operations in the South. One of those two guys shall go eastwards, the other one southwards, that's for sure.

	03-01-2003 04:58									#108
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I had for a second the idea to name the new city after the village that was there, the one we got Ceremonial Burial from. But after replaying the turn it turned out that their name was Patzinal !! Imagine: Port Patzinal

How about Ceremonial Hill ? (Burial Hill is, khmm, kind of morbid). I'm running out of ideas (without actually having at least one good one; baahh! )

	03-01-2003 05:51									#109
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I'm kind of fond of "Howard Hills" as a city name. "Blockton" would be very apropos for our theme, as would "Port Brickson."

	03-01-2003 05:56									#110
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The suggested exploration patterns sound good!

Have we decided what we will build in Ceremonial Hill (?) yet - with Angus remaining near Legoland and the Merc being built, I wonder if Angus should still look around those mountains south of us, then head to Ceremonial Hill as the garrison while the Merc becomes Legoland's garrison.

I think that we should attempt to build another worker from Ceremonial Hill as soon as possible though.

	03-01-2003 09:10									#111
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Zargon...why did you have to mention (whisper) barbarians? Now they will be coming from everywhere.

Seriously, you do make a good point. There should have been many more barb (woops....I almost did it).

Sharpe...good question concerning what to build in Ceremonial City (?). I would generally start with a warrior; but maybe we should go straight to Merc. and keep Angus (? I get the warriors confused...they must be clones) in the area. I support building a worker next.

	03-01-2003 09:44									#112
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I made a misstake on last turn I am sorry. I dont know what else to say. I did not want to do things my way really. It is my fault really.

	03-01-2003 14:47									#113
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Well, the savegame is already with us again. I PMed Jack with the following instructions (I thought they were considered fine by everybody posting in this thread recently - but anyway, just in case, I am posting them here, too, should anyone have a better idea):

1) Move Howard West (heading for the isthmus)
2) Move Conan East, into the jungle
3) Move Gaul (the new Conscript one) South onto the peak
4) Move Angus (the one in Legopolis) SE-SE onto the Poor Twin Peak
5) Found the city, naming it whatever you wish; set the production to just about anything, as we haven't decided on the first improvement/unit to be built there yet.
6) Set the science slider to 100%.

I am not sure now if our Worker will be done with roading this turn. If he will, move him NE, to the bonus grassland. He is supposed to continue building the road to the second city there.

	04-01-2003 00:38									#114
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OK, this was a major chronicle entry and took me a bit longer to prepare. Also, I whipped myself to draw some kind of a wind rose, so that we are less likely to mess with directions (I will make some improvements to it later, I know it is still not perfect). EDIT: Ahhh... finally, I am satisfied.

I used Jackson as the name of the second city and set it to start building an Archer. However, both the name and the unit are just placeholders (especially the Archer) and I expect them to be changed in the nearest future - I just knew of no final decisions that would be helping me out with this... be so kind and try speaking your minds regarding the new city name and its production.

Speaking of the names... I finally named Angus and Gaul in the game, so they are easy to recognize now. Also, the southernmost peak Gaul climbed up, got temporarily names after the only Gaulish (=Celtic) god I was able to find out - Cernunnos, the god of fertility. I will appreciate any better names for this landmark.

Research slider set to 100%, as we are not losing money this way and Writing will be discovered few turns sooner.

Last edited by vondrack on 04-01-2003 at 01:24

	04-01-2003 00:49									#115
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Definately some promising looking areas to the south there, around Cernunnos. Wheat and game are always a welcome sight.

I will organize a poll for the city name in the meantime.

	04-01-2003 06:22									#116
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Even though there is nothing urgent to be decided for the next turn, I would still like to make a summary:

obvious:
1) Howard: move W, heading to the isthmus
2) Conan: move E, climbing the mountain
3) Gaul: move S
4) Worker: start roading

to be discussed:

Angus

I suggest moving Conan first and, subject to what he finds out, possibly sending Angus eastwards in order to learn more about the area E/SE of the Dye Fields. The reasoning behind is as follows: should Conan spot no dangers South of the Rich Twin, we'll be sure there's nothing dangerous within a 3-tile radius around Legopolis. If there is anything dangerous outside this radius, Angus would be able to get back to Legopolis in two turns (using the road). From the next turn on, our 1st Merc would be completed sooner than any threat from outside the 3-tile radius could reach Legopolis.

My idea would be to use Angus to explore the area E and a little bit SE of the Dye Fields, possibly venturing further along the east coast.

Jackson production

This is tough. No obvious favourite, I'd say. Excluding obvious stupidities like wonders, settlers, workers, walls, and wealth, we are left with the following six choices:

a) Warrior. Some of you know how much I dislike these suckers... I believe we already have more than enough. Yet another warrior does not seem to do much good - I do not think we need any more cheap explorers now and for the the next 13 turns, we have no urge to garrison Jackson.
b) Archer. However strange this may seem, I guess that building an archer might be ok. He would be completed soon enough (in 9 turns) to garrison Jackson once the pop reaches 3 there. He would be having a fine edge over barbarians that might come from the Northern Mountains. And he might come in handy in the unlikely case that another team tries to trigger our Golden Age.
c) Merc. Building a Merc seems to be just as fine as an archer, maybe even slightly better. It would take 13 turns to build him. That would be just in time to calm the third citizen down. A Settler would then take 6 turns, if I am not mistaken, which is again quite fine, as it would not deplete the population of Jackson too early. Good choice, I'd say.
d) Temple. Too costly both in terms of shields and upkeep. Using another garrison unit costs at worst the same as having a Temple. We do not really need the Jackson radius to expand, as everything we need is inside the inner ring. I would consider building a Temple only later, possibly in preparation for wonder building or in anticipation of the government change (should we go for the Republic). Wrong choice for now, IMHO.
e) Granary. With a Granary, Jackson would grow once in 4 turns instead of once in 7 turns. That would be nice, but only if we process the extra pop units into settlers and workers. However, considering its coastal location and awesome production potential, Jackson is likely to go for wonders later in the game (Colossus and The Great Lighthouse come to my mind). Granary would be of no use then (actually, just needlessly consuming the upkeep gold), as we'd be forced to stop the city growth anyway, in order to keep its population content. Wrong choice, IMHO.
f) Barracks. Just reread most of the Granary section and apply it to the Barracks. Jackson is likely to take on wonders and for such a city, Barracks would be just an unnecessary luxury. We do not need Barracks to bolster Jackson's defenses either (there will be no threat there in like thousands of years). Bad choice, IMHO.

So, it seems to me that the only two reasonable choices now are the Archer and Mercenary. Master Builder, any comments?

	04-01-2003 07:30									#117
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I would build a warrior (or archer is fine, since we may have an early attack, you never know what the other teams are up to).
Then build a worker to start improving the land arround the city.
I would then build a settler in that city to speed up our expansion and use that sea cow to good use.

	04-01-2003 09:10									#118
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I think we should build two warriors, then a settler. While we are close to getting our needed explorers + defense for our current cities, I think we need to build at least two more cities ASAP.

But if we're only going to build to one more (on the isthmus, by the game) an Archer-Settler queue would probably be better.

	04-01-2003 13:31									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I would build a warrior (or archer is fine, since we may have an early attack, you never know what the other teams are up to).

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I think we should build two warriors, then a settler. While we are close to getting our needed explorers + defense for our current cities, I think we need to build at least two more cities ASAP. But if we're only going to build to one more (on the isthmus, by the game) an Archer-Settler queue would probably be better.

Well, seeing two people speaking of warriors (them suckers ), I would like to note that warriors will quickly become expensive in terms of upkeep. The problem is that each of our cities is able to support only FOUR units free of charge under despotism (and even less under more advanced systems of government). Anything above that and we will have to pay upkeep just as high as for a Merc or Archer... an upkeep that will slow down our research (which I would prefer keeping at 100% at least until researching Map Making that will allow us to leave our possibly isolated landmass).

Where would you send any extra explorers to? The southern lands are covered by Conan & Gaul, possibly with a bit of help from Angus. So, the only direction still not covered is NE beyond the isthmus... do you, guys, believe we shall send more than one explorer there? We are not likely to expand beyond the isthmus, unless there is nobody there (in which case, we are in no hurry as far as exploration of that area is concerned).

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Then build a worker to start improving the land arround the city. I would then build a settler in that city to speed up our expansion and use that sea cow to good use.

Actually, I would skip the worker and build a settler right after the military unit. The reason is that the worker we have will be able to improve the Jackson area fast enough (considering the pop growth there). So while we WILL need more workers once we start expanding southwards into the jungle, I do not think we need another worker that soon.

	04-01-2003 14:44									#120
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We need a worker to start building a road toward the ishtmus and then to improve our 3rd city, and later a road to connect to the possible southern fertile area. So I say we will need a worker pretty soon.
Therefor, I would go in Jackson for an archer-worker-mercenary-settler building order.