08-07-2003 04:20									#121
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Yeah, I wonder what version Solo was using. If he's using FW or Gold that would explain the differences and I think that your studies would still reconcile.

Yeah, I reloaded the original civ2, and it doesn't include the extra advances.

Yet, perhaps Xin Yu was still correct, however. Perhaps the game engine's default calculation is based off of 100 (even though only 93 exist in the rules.txt). I think this plausible, because it would provide a natural explanation why Microprose (if that's who they still were at the time), added 7 Extra Advances rather than some other number.7 They knew that it was based off of 100, so they completed the @civilize to 100 (an 8th extra advance might have thrown the game engine out of kilter; thus a reason for their warnings about changing the rules.txt file!).

Anyway, I've really enjoyed your work Samson. I've got to read the rest of your posts now.

	08-07-2003 04:35									#122
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The plot always thickens!

My memory is that it was MGE being used for my tests and that Samson is almost never wrong!

	08-07-2003 21:32									#123
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My proposition is quite testable.

If we add 100 more extra advances to @Civilize in Rules.txt (bringing the total techs, in MGE, to 200) I predict the chances of getting Alphabet from a scroll-tip (with no starting techs) would then be 114/200 or 57%. This assumes that there isn't some limiting factor on the number of total advances one can have in @Civilize.

	09-07-2003 00:37									#124
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Now that would be very interesting to see! Please try it.

I think I read once, in one of the Microprose handbooks, that there was a limited number of technologies available. But I could be totally wrong (or Microprose could've been wrong too!)

	09-07-2003 03:18									#125
	Got spare money?

Usually Microprose handbooks are wrong.

	09-07-2003 08:44									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

wow 100 more techs?

	09-07-2003 18:36									#127
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by solo The plot always thickens! My memory is that it was MGE being used for my tests and that Samson is almost never wrong!

Well, I was this time. I tried adding extra techs to the 2.42 Rules.text to see if it changed the chances of Alphabet and it didn't.

Apparently, the denominator is hard-wired at 93 for Civ2.42 and CIC and at 100 for FW and MGE.

	10-07-2003 09:13									#128
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Thanks Samson. I love your work. So, be encouraged, all of this discussion has indeed proven your previous work. Your data has been reconciled with Solo's too!

	16-07-2003 14:34									#129
	To steal Advances with brain! Got spare money?

I didnīt read this whole thread before, so I made my own tests and came nearly to the same results as Samson and Xin.
Because it fits straight about, here still some references, when it makes sense to steal an Advance. To steal an unfavorable Advance is rather a handicap. With an embassy everyone can see all Advance which can be stolen and and decide for himself, if it really makes sense. Exactly as with Advance finding in huts, are also with Advance stealing the probability unequally distributed. Again in mentioned list all advances which potentially can be stolen are marked and the difference to the above indicates the probability in percent. So the theory. I made test rows with 100 attempts, with which only 3 Advances were to be stolen. The first numbers are the expected results (x/100), the second numbers are the received results
Ceremonial Burial......44...45
code of law..................3....4
pottery........................53... 51
The result should as proof be sufficient.

The discussion-Thread about this (in German): http://civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthr...15&pagenumber=1

Last edited by Cobra on 16-07-2003 at 14:45

	16-07-2003 17:20									#130
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Damn, learn something new every day. Good job.

	18-07-2003 14:44									#131
	Re: Re: A study of Hut Outcomes Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Elephant Some questions/comments: You might want to test to see if having Pyramids suppresses the chance of getting a Granary. In your spare time... Just for the fun of it...

No, having Pyramids does no supress the chance of getting a granary.

I am happy to provide the most useless answer of this otherwise great great thread.

Congratulation for the superlative job

	23-07-2003 08:23									#132
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Statistics make my head explode, so I'm not going to comment except to say:
A. Samson did one helluva job, and
B. The terrain-dependent mercenaries rumor may be false, but it would make sense, wouldn't it? A forest tribe wouldn't have a bunch of skilled horsemen to offer in service, after all...

	25-07-2003 11:40									#133
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quote: Originally posted by samson .Apparently, the denominator is hard-wired at 93 for Civ2.42 and CIC and at 100 for FW and MGE.

Hmmm! 93 & 100 have quite distinct Hex values - this makes a hexedit of the source fairly viable -- do they need changing?

SG[1]

	25-07-2003 14:53									#134
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Has no-one done a definitive test on the mercenary thing then?
I always thought that it would run along the same lines as the appearance of barbs on terrain squares around a hut, but do notice that the best unit you can get is a rifleman, and you never get any others in the (very) late game.
Someone with the cheat menu open and lots of time on their hands could easily set up huts on different types of terrain and enter them repeatedly to see what copmes out. I assume that the units are also influenced by both your tech level and some kind of average tech level.
Having said that though, I ain't volunteering!

	26-07-2003 00:48									#135
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Has no-one done a definitive test

No.
There is no such thing as a definitive test.
That's why this game is great.
(that's also why testers should be admired )

	17-08-2003 17:28									#136
	Re: To steal Advances with brain! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Is it possible to steal an advance although the thief doesn't have both prereqs?

	18-08-2003 00:40									#137
	more that 100 techs Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by samson Well, I was this time. I tried adding extra techs to the 2.42 Rules.text to see if it changed the chances of Alphabet and it didn't. Apparently, the denominator is hard-wired at 93 for Civ2.42 and CIC and at 100 for FW and MGE.

Does it mean that there may be more than 100 techs in the game, but they cannot go out from huts?

	23-08-2003 22:06									#138
	Re: more that 100 techs Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Does it mean that there may be more than 100 techs in the game, but they cannot go out from huts?

No.
It means that someone would have to find and modify the hard-wired number of '100' techs in the CIV2.EXE file if they wanted more than 100 techs.

	23-08-2003 22:47									#139
	Re: Re: To steal Advances with brain! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Is it possible to steal an advance although the thief doesn't have both prereqs?

I think so. Space Flight/Plastics/SuperConductor get stolen by the AI in a lot of my games, sans prereqs.

I probably have stolen techs I didn't have the prereqs for, but I have no specific saves to reference.

	23-08-2003 22:49									#140
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry, I didn't notice that 6000 answered too. My post was for samson:

quote: Originally posted by samson No. It means that someone would have to find and modify the hard-wired number of '100' techs in the CIV2.EXE file if they wanted more than 100 techs.

But the sum of odds of all techs must be 1 (=100/100): so how are odds if you have more than 100 (resp. 93)techs?

	24-08-2003 20:50									#141
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You would have to change both the hard-wired denominator (93 or 100) and the number of techs listed in Rules.txt to the same new number.

	31-08-2003 20:38									#142
	more than 100 techs Tired of ads?

samson,
I thought Civ2 worked with more than 100 techs in your test... Were added techs inaccessible or did Civ2 crash?

edited

Last edited by SlowThinker on 31-08-2003 at 20:48

	31-08-2003 21:48									#143
	Re: Re: To steal Advances with brain! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Is it possible to steal an advance although the thief doesn't have both prereqs?

Yes - this is definitely possible - in games such as OCC there is little point in researching the long slog of techs upto Tactics and Leadership - let the AI do the work and then swap for one of the end techs...

SG[1]

	01-09-2003 08:38									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Wish it was so; I always leave that till I need Tools, but usually only get Chivalry...

But yes, both stealing and trading techs do not require pre-reqs. Only researching. And if you have a tech without its prereq (like Construction without Masonry) you can research its follow-on (Sanitation). Tech-skipping is how OCC should be done, which is what makes MarcoPolo so valuable early on. And how the AI tries to get back in the game after you build Apollo...

	26-01-2004 22:40									#145
	Put an end to popups!

Samson: don't see anything about this one:

"Weeds grow in empty ruins. This village has long
been abandoned."

Is there a decreasing likelyhood of this based on difficulty level, with elimination at Deity?

	27-01-2004 01:19									#146
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Or is it based on barb level?

I'm used to playing raging, deity, so I never see abandoned anyway.

	27-01-2004 02:30									#147
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It may be in place of barbs if they are forbidden.

	27-01-2004 02:47									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant ... "Weeds grow in empty ruins. This village has long been abandoned."...

I ONLY see this with levels less than raging (even at Prince level) -- so I think that Barb level may be the only variable.

	27-01-2004 14:18									#149
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It only occurs on the hut-only barb level. I haven't tested this per se, but many years of playing have led me to this conclusion.
If anyone's had it on a higher barb level then I'm interested to hear about it.

	27-01-2004 18:45									#150
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Never seen one at raging.