18-01-2003 10:12									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot well war IS stupid if its just to stand our ground and beat our chest, see whos more cowardly.

Oh, I fully agree with you. The idea of a war this early is purely ludicrous. It's just plain silly.

quote: IF we give in an inch, we lose face.

This isn't so bad, really...

quote: IF we give them the tech without them leaving, they gain tactical miliatary info, technology, and good reason to attack us in the future, because we can be labeled as untrustworthy for thinking of keeping them out of territory that isnt ours yet.

We need to get a concession out of them for this. Personally, I think we should use this as a bargaining chip. They don't want our warrior obstructing their warrior from freely moving about and we're not happy with them being there at all.... so they could sweaten a deal for us to smooth things over (if they were smart... which isn't quite the case).

quote: IF we dont... we may still risk a fight, but they dont gain that tech, we dont lose face, and we are more certain they will attack us?

Personally, I think the whole situation is positively silly. The stakes are too high... we need to keep GoW as an ally-of-convenience, even if we don't like them and they get on our nerves on occassion.

I'm not saying we should just forget the whole thing and give them the tech, I'm saying we still give them the tech deal, but we try to sweaten the deal in return for not obstructing their exploration of the west coast.

	18-01-2003 10:16									#452
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its silly, but its very plainly obvious that GoW are looking for a fight

that they 1) want to know what resources we might gain and 2) are jumping on the opportunity to label us dishonest.... it makes it very plain that they want a war.

They are scouting for an enemy. Wil they want to conduct war over the bounderies of a jungle? well maybe they'll get the idea that a swordsmen stack of 6 or so is all they need to cleave us up.


I dont personally think we can do anything to stop them from scouting and considering war with us. Even if we benefit from a trade with them, that will NOT stop future war. thats my opinion.

	18-01-2003 10:24									#453
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Togas,

I just sent you a PM about this.

As for GhengisFarb personally... he's not very good at this... he's trying to dupe people into stuff in WAY WAY WAY too obvious a manner. As for his deciding to be upset about Togas being upset over the warrior in our "territory", I can see where he's coming from, but he's not very bright about it... seriously, the best thing he can do right now would be to salvage the relationship by offering Togas an incentive to let them explore the West coast (and call our bluff on that we can't stop them, but he's willing to be "nice" about it).

As it is, I don't see GhengisFarb, or many of the members of his team, having the insight to see this as the way out. They're calling our bluff alright, they just don't care enough about the strategic relationship to be very nice about calling our bluff.

From a broader perspective, GhengisFarb is looking for who he can hoodwink into being a "friend" because they're scared of others. If Legoland and ourselves coordinate on ND knowing what's really going on, it sure won't be ND (they won't EVER trust GoW after that one...). He's partially upset that he can't seem to hoodwink Togas and partially upset that Togas broke a deal with them (especially after Togas got upset for them breaking a deal with us).

I think making adaMada the ambassador is the perfect move. adaMada is such a nice guy that perhaps GhengisFarb will at least be nicer to him (at the least) and think he can hoodwink him (at the best). Togas will end up being the one behind all the deals anyhow, so there's no change in policy.

Hell, play good-cop, bad-cop. Togas can be the "bad cop" who is tough about deals, and adaMada can be the "good cop" who plays softball with GoW and convinces his Master (Togas) that GoW isn't so bad and we can make deals with them. Especially if GoW gets an example of adaMada supposedly softening Togas' hard stance, GoW may start to rely on adaMada as their supposed "very good friend" capable of swaying the leadership of the RP Team.

As long as we keep our story straight and adaMada doesn't go off making promises that Togas won't keep (like Panzer32 did for GhengisFarb ), it should be workable.

	18-01-2003 10:27									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot its silly, but its very plainly obvious that GoW are looking for a fight that they 1) want to know what resources we might gain and 2) are jumping on the opportunity to label us dishonest.... it makes it very plain that they want a war. They are scouting for an enemy. Wil they want to conduct war over the bounderies of a jungle? well maybe they'll get the idea that a swordsmen stack of 6 or so is all they need to cleave us up. I dont personally think we can do anything to stop them from scouting and considering war with us. Even if we benefit from a trade with them, that will NOT stop future war. thats my opinion.

War with us makes so little strategic sense... they'd be wasting enormous production to bulid such a swordsman stack and then ND and Lux (who are right on top of them) can take over any territory taken from us (since they're in between) and there would be nothing GoW could do to protect their conquests... and THEN ND and Lux can jointly invade GoW.

It just doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't mean that GoW wouldn't do it... weren't not necessarily dealing with a "rational actor" here...

	18-01-2003 10:49									#455
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Do not forget who is also on their team. Aggie, who IMHO, will be in charge of their Military, is a person who can not be patient. Neither is GF. These are two things that we can take huge advantages of, their lack of Patience. Most everybody else will follow their lead.

But, that can also work against us, as they have been learning the art of being patient. But as long as we are mindfull of this, we should be o.k. If the act Irrationally, then they will be the one who make the big mistake and not us.

E_T

	18-01-2003 11:12									#456
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I was about to send a message to Panzer, who (for all it's worth) is being warmer over the whole issue than Ghengis has (though he's obviously, like me, reading from a script his team's given him). The message'll have to wait till tomorrow AM, since these events are too much to process at one in the morning, and I'd rather not make it worse through some stupid screwup. (Sorry to delay things so long (been feeling really sick all day long) -- I tried to get Panzer in a chat earlier to resolve things more quickly, but he went offline quickly after, and it sounded like he had no further instructions beyond his last message.)

One or two quick replies to posts that have been made after Togas' last update.

quote: Originally posted by Ninot well war IS stupid if its just to stand our ground and beat our chest, see whos more cowardly. but look at the options now IF we give in an inch, we lose face. IF we give them the tech without them leaving, they gain tactical miliatary info, technology, and good reason to attack us in the future, because we can be labeled as untrustworthy for thinking of keeping them out of territory that isnt ours yet. IF we dont... we may still risk a fight, but they dont gain that tech, we dont lose face, and we are more certain they will attack us? is that right?

Our best option is to look for some sorta diplomatic loophole and avoid the whole issue. If, for instance, we made another deal which happened to include an agreement to define our territory as the edge of that jungle, both sides could probably walk away happily, especially if the agreement was good for everyone.

Panzer did make one point in his PM -- we do have that nonagression pact. I might be optamistic, but I think it'll help us in a pinch, at least a little bit.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As for GhengisFarb personally... he's not very good at this... he's trying to dupe people into stuff in WAY WAY WAY too obvious a manner. As for his deciding to be upset about Togas being upset over the warrior in our "territory", I can see where he's coming from, but he's not very bright about it... seriously, the best thing he can do right now would be to salvage the relationship by offering Togas an incentive to let them explore the West coast (and call our bluff on that we can't stop them, but he's willing to be "nice" about it). As it is, I don't see GhengisFarb, or many of the members of his team, having the insight to see this as the way out. They're calling our bluff alright, they just don't care enough about the strategic relationship to be very nice about calling our bluff.

I agree tha they're calling our bluff outright, but I think that we might be able to manuver them into the 'both sides benefit' thinking. Ghengis is rather overt, but he's not stupid, and his team isn't made up of idiots -- if we offer a deal which would also leave this issue in a stalemate, I think they'll probably bite (unless they're OUT for war, which I doubt).

quote: From a broader perspective, GhengisFarb is looking for who he can hoodwink into being a "friend" because they're scared of others. If Legoland and ourselves coordinate on ND knowing what's really going on, it sure won't be ND (they won't EVER trust GoW after that one...). He's partially upset that he can't seem to hoodwink Togas and partially upset that Togas broke a deal with them (especially after Togas got upset for them breaking a deal with us).

Agreed. GoW wants a friend, and we've been messing them up with that. Having said that, it might not be a bad idea to let them think they can find a friend in us -- perhaps throw them a few softball diplomatic deals after this is resolved? (Assuming it comes out positively). I'm not saying we want to be that friend, but as long as they think we do, we gain manuverability.

quote: I think making adaMada the ambassador is the perfect move. adaMada is such a nice guy that perhaps GhengisFarb will at least be nicer to him (at the least) and think he can hoodwink him (at the best). Togas will end up being the one behind all the deals anyhow, so there's no change in policy.

I'm glad you've got more confidence in me than I do . In all honesty, I've had no contact with Ghengis about anything PTW related -- the nice guy strategy is working better with Panzer, but I'm now worried that we shot ourselves in the foot with that last diplomatic incident by getting him in trouble. Either way, it is something we should use -- I've no problem stroking Ghengis' ego. If anything, I think an interesting strategy to try would be to refuse to fight him -- next time he goes off on some issue, to just calmly reply and smooth things over. I'm most curious as to how he'd reply to such a response -- think he'd soften up himself, push harder, or come out confused and disoriented? Might be interesting to try next time we're dealing with an incident where we don't care about the outcome so much...

quote: Hell, play good-cop, bad-cop. Togas can be the "bad cop" who is tough about deals, and adaMada can be the "good cop" who plays softball with GoW and convinces his Master (Togas) that GoW isn't so bad and we can make deals with them. Especially if GoW gets an example of adaMada supposedly softening Togas' hard stance, GoW may start to rely on adaMada as their supposed "very good friend" capable of swaying the leadership of the RP Team.

I agree, and was trying to push that off at the start of the game (especially through the creation of a 'big bad anti-GoW party inside our government). Sadly, I messed that up a bit during the last diplomatic incident -- I think that Ghengis views me as a pawn of Togas (which, to be fair to him, I am ) and only useful for making things official, which will go through Panzer anyway. This may actually be for the best -- it means that very little of the true diplomatic communication between our teams is actually 'official,' and it frees us up from diplomatic concerns when we want to push an issue hard. When I write a PM to Panzer, I'm more obliged to be polite than Togas is in a message to Ghengis -- which is useful in getting them to know that we are serious and not to be toyed with. Basically, what Arnelos said -- Good Cop/Bad Cop.

quote: As long as we keep our story straight and adaMada doesn't go off making promises that Togas won't keep (like Panzer32 did for GhengisFarb ), it should be workable.

As you've probably guessed, I've no intention of doing anything without either posting in this thread or chatting with Togas about it first . That's a GoW mistake, not a RPer one -- we're too well coordinated to have that problem . (That's one thing that should actually get easier as the game goes on -- right now there's a constant time pressure considering how quickly the game is turned around, but once the moves get more complex, that'll change.)

Will reply to everything else and have a diplomatic message for Panzer (probably mainly in reply to what he said before on the issue in general) tomorrow morning. If people think it would be best, I'll also establish contact with Ghengis -- see if I can't stroke his ego a bit and soften him up.

-- adaMada

	18-01-2003 11:32									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Hell, play good-cop, bad-cop. Togas can be the "bad cop" who is tough about deals, and adaMada can be the "good cop" who plays softball with GoW and convinces his Master (Togas) that GoW isn't so bad and we can make deals with them. Especially if GoW gets an example of adaMada supposedly softening Togas' hard stance, GoW may start to rely on adaMada as their supposed "very good friend" capable of swaying the leadership of the RP Team.

If this can work, let's make it work. I need adaMada to work this situation as much as possible ... patient yet dilligent. Make sure they know that this is an utmost priority to you.

If we can get them OUT of our country I'd be willing to sell them Writing at some bargain basement price (find something that sounds reasonable and hard to resist) and not do the trade. However, only broach this as a last option in the negotiations.

Frankly, any tactic we use other than bribing is not going to work on these guys, as much as I keep hoping it will. Threats, embargos, etc will only piss them off and make them call our bluff. I hate, hate, hate bribery ... it sickens me but this may be our only viable negotiation method with GoW. We just have to remember that we get something out of this deal ... we get to keep our land secret ... at least from them. ND is scouting us out like crazy. Luckily, they scouted everyone else first.

Let me be clear, GoW is NOT trying to be our friend. They don't even know what that means. They're a competator, they see us as competition along with the others and they treat us at arm's length never trusting, always suspicious, always on guard. The only good news is that I'm sure they're treating everyone else the same. We just have to weather the storm until northern tension break out into conflict. We may have to suck it up and bribe a little to stay OUT of trouble, and let GoW sniff out trouble from another direction.

adaMada -- get them out of our land even if you have to "pay" them to leave with some sort of bargain deal. Do whatever it takes and then "convince" me to accept it.

--Togas

	18-01-2003 13:27									#458
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We should not overreact to the situation, nor underestimate the opponent.
1. Ghengis says that there is nothing wrong in scouting outside our cultural boundaries : he is objectively right.
2. Can we prevent him to do so : partly, but not immediately.
3. Should we bribe him to leave : probably not; in scouting, he will just learn info immediately useless, and which will become public soon (already known by ND for the most part); bribing him, even discretely, would shown he was right, and he will do it again. We should continue to discuss trade on a normal basis, that is favorable for us.
4. We could limit our manifestation of displeasure in making the scouting difficult by assigning one or two additionnal warriors to the blocking of the scout. If he complains, we will use his own argument that there is nothing wrong in moving our warriors along his scout as long as we dont attack him.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 18-01-2003 at 14:16

	18-01-2003 14:00									#459
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Quick note: It is ALWAYS good to gab and chat and make friends with anyone from another team, particularly someone who is willing to gab back. I have had great success with Nimitz, Trip, and now this evening Jon_Miller. Although he initially was timid and didn't want to offer up much without first talking with him team and his Foreign Affairs guy, Betahound, he and I traded a few secrets and made like the best of friends, gabbing and swapping stories about trivial things with our teams, governments, the game, names of things, etc.

Any of you with a silver tongue and a knack for making friends should do so. A little harmless information swapped can often tell us a lot, especially if we collect it from many sources.

John confirmed that they are with GS on a continent, they have ONLY met GS, and they think GS has more techs than them. He assumed that GS had contact with other nations due to this fact, but I told him we didn't think so, but were not 100% sure. He would not confirm that they've blocked off GS, but did not dispute it when I talked about it. They have a thread discussing how to fight GS, but he says they also "hope to live in peace" with them.

They call their land Estonia. They have "no meaningful contact" with ND. He was nervous about talking to me without "getting a concensus" first, but said that he would get one with his team prior to our next chat. I offered to trade info with him on anything he'd like to know. Told them that we knew where most of the other civs are and had a pretty good idea of what the map looks like, etc.

We both indicated that we'd like to chat again, he felt it was good for our relations to chat more often. I agreed. We'll keep working on this budding "friendship" with them.

--Togas

	18-01-2003 20:08									#460
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on the bright side - recent pm from BFM at Lux: we have an alliance -

quote: Hello! Keep us informed on the status of your Writing Research. It seems like an interesting ability to us. In the mean time, we're going to do the research on Mysticism. Hopefully, we will speak to each other soon again! BFM quote: Minister BigFurryMonster, I have spoken to our Grand and Illustrious Despot, Togas, and he wishes that I clarify the following aspects of the agreement. Note: those as[ects not mentioned are agreeable to us. quote: * We will trade Horseback Riding (from LI) for Writing (from RP). This will be done as soon as RP has obtained Writing, which will be in about 12 turns from now. While we agree this is a good idea, we can not commit definitively until we have Writing. quote: * LI will research Mysticism; RP will research another tech (possibly MapMaking) for those to be traded. We will research Mapmaking, and LI Mysticism. We will have to clarify this trade when research is complete, as many variables can come into play. ____ Due to the many variables that will come into play over the turns leading to the discovery of all the techs involved in both aspects of the agreement, we feel neither LI or RP can commit to the trades mentioned specifically. We do want to maintain an open dialog with regards to tech trading and other matters with LI, and will always seek such trades once the techs are in hand. And should all things remain equal, the trades mentioned are ones we would complete with you. However, specific details should be worked out once the techs are available. I hope this is agreeable to you. Please let me know if you have any questions or have anything further to discuss. Thank you for your trustworthyness and friendship. Your humble servant, jdjdjd - Ambassador to The Ottoman Empire from España

my pm is attached.

we have an ally
we currently have a larger military than GoW
what are they gonna do to us?
as for horseback riding & lux - i hear we have mysticism - maybe we can work out a deal with lux?

just a thought

	18-01-2003 20:47									#461
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd as for horseback riding & lux - i hear we have mysticism - maybe we can work out a deal with lux? just a thought

No, Togas has said that he wishes to keep our Mysticism a secret for now.


On the GoW front, GhengisFarb had this to say in the email that sent us the save this turn:

quote: I am suprised that you chose to break the tech trade agreement we had made to trade Horseback Riding for Writing but I would rather find out your team is untrustworthy now than later.

It's a good thing I'm not involved in our diplomacy, because I can't stand his arrogance.

On the positive side, I believe GoW has already sufficient damaged their own reputation with ND and Lux that neither would believe a "RP has broken another agreement, they are untrustworthy" story.

	18-01-2003 20:54									#462
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Who is our diplomatic contact? Genghis or Panzer? IIRC, Panzer is, right?

Perhaps, we should start creating a rift within their team about the hardline bullying tactics of Genghis and the respectful diplomacy of Panzer. Claim we are getting mixed signals and are wondering who is in charge. Maybe go straight to Donegeal with this.

Genghis' lack of statesmanship and ability to compromise might be of some surprise to the rest of his team. If we can spin this properly, we may be able to soften their position.

Otherwise, I am for full tech embargo against GoW. One which brings ND and Lux in as well. This should not escalate to war, but the info is too sensitive to them walk around freely. I hope we can send another group of warriors over there soon as a show of strength.

	18-01-2003 21:02									#463
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Panzer is their ambassador for us. GhengisFarb is the team leader - he won in a battle over Donegeal, IIRC. I don't know if Donegeal has an official position any longer, aside from being the team "administrator" - add and removing team members from their forum.

It would be interesting to see if we could chat with other GoW team members and see if they are all behind this "hardline" approach. (Donegeal, Aggie, Aro, UnOrthOdOx)

	18-01-2003 21:10									#464
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A very old post (Nov 1)in the original GoW thread by our leader that may very well come true...

quote: Originally posted by Togas I'll echo Ninot here. You guys may want to curb back your concept a little. If my Civ ran into this one, we'd immediately build up an army and pull in allies to try to crush it before it took our wine resources and women. Maybe structure it as a more noble, proud, honorable civ that keeps it's word and heavily punishes transgressors. A civ that has no qualms in taking resources if a fair agreement cannot be reached. A civ that would be an excellent ally, and a horrible enemy. Just something to think about. You never want to go into a game with other humans and be the "evil Civ" ... that kind of a bad reputation will make the game really difficult for you. Unless you like that sort of challange. I dunno. --Togas

	18-01-2003 21:36									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Just something to think about. You never want to go into a game with other humans and be the "evil Civ" ... that kind of a bad reputation will make the game really difficult for you.

How is this for dropping hints?

There is an art to war but also an art to diplomacy as well. If conducting war remains your team's stated purpose, perhaps a bit more diplomatic subtlety and tact will make those wars easier to conduct

	18-01-2003 22:00									#466
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Why would we want to drop hints that would make them more competent? Surely we want them to remain incompetent and get in trouble with someone else.

	18-01-2003 22:05									#467
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan Why would we want to drop hints that would make them more competent? Surely we want them to remain incompetent and get in trouble with someone else.

What I want is for them to leave our territory. We are the most centrally located civ in the game and we have a vast amount of territory to REX into if there are no competitors.

If they become more competent but leave our territory before discovering the lands to our south, I think we still will have won the game by dominating the land, resources, luxuries, and city sites that will come from successful REX in the southern direction.

	18-01-2003 23:02									#468
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I like the idea of lux, nd & us tech embargoing gw - but i'm not 100% sure they are trustworthy, either.

i like the idea of pitting gf v. panzer, et als - donegeal could manipulated. un and aggie, probably not.

	18-01-2003 23:15									#469
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd I like the idea of lux, nd & us tech embargoing gw - but i'm not 100% sure they are trustworthy, either. i like the idea of pitting gf v. panzer, et als - donegeal could manipulated. un and aggie, probably not.

UnOrthO can't be manipulated, but he won't make the same diplomatic mistakes that Ghengis is making, and would probably surface as much more of a power inside their team than Panzer's been (pure conjuncture, since I honestly don't know how much of a power Panzer is) -- we might not be able to maniuplate him, but I bet we could work with him...

-- adaMada

	19-01-2003 00:59									#470
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A tech embargo against GoW sounds like a good idea. GoW is behind in tech right now so Lux and ND could easily join us... except that they are on the front line if war breaks out with GoW, so they may think that the deal is at our advantage.

	19-01-2003 01:07									#471
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Unortho would make a better diplomat than GhengisFarb by a long shot and that is WHY Unortho was named the FAM for GoW... unfortunately, Unortho is inactive because of RL concerns and can't do their diplomatic duties...

That's why Ghengis acting as their FAM as well as their leader.

Panzer has very little clout in that group, he's more of a groupie to them.

I suspect the guys with most of the clout are:

GhengisFarb
Unorthodox
Aggie
UberKruX

Guys like donegeal and Aro would be secondary, along with guys like Panzer32 or others like that.

Then again, you never know for sure. We have some people on OUR team that are relatively new to Apolyton who have a lot of say about our team because we're fairly open-minded if someone has a good idea and people can build repuations for themselves here.

My suspicion is that the GoW team is less open-minded in that sense... that the guys on the top probably really do make most of the decisions, though they might be open to what they might think is a good idea from one of the others. That said, guys like Aro probably participate in the commraderie with the rest of the team, but don't offer any suggestions or strategy. The strategizing and the diplomacy is all be handled at the top. With Unortho's inactivity, that means GhengisFarb and Aggie are likely the chiefs of the team (UberKruX will probably get listened to on military matters, but even the other GoWers won't really head him in diplomacy ).

Interestingly, Aggie would make a better diplomat than GhengisFarb as well...

As for us...

Under no conditions should we tell them that they should "improve their diplomacy". This will only serve to insult GhengisFarb and the rest of the team won't take it very nicely, either. It will just make us look arogant and it will get us nowhere. There are things we can do here, but that isn't one of them.

	19-01-2003 01:22									#472
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I wrote back to "Jason" via email (player of Ghengis Farb) telling him rather bluntly that I was tired of the way he handled these stupid situations and that I felt that the two of us together = trouble. Told him to stop sending comments via email to me, I would stop responding, and that I felt it was better that we both let our diplomats deal with these situations.

It's mostly true. This guy gets under my skin too much and makes it difficult for me to think rationally about foriegn affairs with his team. I suspect, that his opinion is not the only opinon over there, but it is a leading force, I'm sure.

However, if we can get any sypathizers from their team, any friends that you can "talk frankly" to about the situation, talk to them. Undermine Ghengis's authority as best as possible, and let them see that his hardline attitude is causing problems.

Important note: We're not NEXT to GoW, we're next to ND and Lux. GoW, in a purely logical sense, makes an excellent ally because we each have the same 2 neighbors. However, from a diplomatic sense, they suck. Maybe in the future that can change, but right now .... I'm losing faith.

--Togas

	19-01-2003 01:28									#473
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quote: Originally posted by dejon It's a good thing I'm not involved in our diplomacy, because I can't stand his arrogance.

[OOC]

I got the same message with the save file.

My immediate thought when I read it was that good cop/bad cop really is the way out of this...

He's equating Togas with the entire team and his anger is put on Togas.

Now equating Togas with the team isn't really that far off , but there's some room for manuever here...

For instance...

GhengisFarb knows that we have supposedly heated internal politics and that Togas remains supreme leader because all of us support him.

Aside from the fact that Togas still has our complete support as Supreme Leader, it might not be a bad idea for some of us to roleplay that we think Togas "messed this up" and we're trying to pressure Togas to change his mind - with his ability to stay in power potentially in question.

Nothing would make GhengisFarb happier than to think that he caused an internal division in the RP Team. It would make him like us even more if he thought Togas' hand was being forced to make better deals with GoW because a number of us were supposedly pro-friendship with GoW and wanted policy changed in that direction.

This might also get into GhengisFarb's head the idea that Togas doesn't necessarily equal the team and that if he can manipulate the rest of our team into believing something, we can pressure Togas into doing it. GhengisFarb will absoultely DELIGHT in thinking he's driving a wedge into our team.

The catch is that we can't let the cat out of the bag that it's all just a game

We also have to let GhengisFarb know that there's a heated internal division about cancelling that tech deal with GoW and for him to "bite" - to believe it's true. Now, in part, it's not TERRIBLY far from the truth. Ninot and DAVOUT, to name just two, really have come out to say that our attempt to stop GoW from being in our territory is absolutely ludicrous. Twisting that into appearing to be something more shouldn't be too hard of a task.

It might even be worth Togas softening his stance in a few days on this issue just to give the appearance that Togas might actually be responding to the threat. That might actually get Ghengis to be believe something's really up over here, even if he was suspicious before (though still not necessarily).

The key will be getting GhengisFarb to the point where he's latched onto the idea of there being a rift and he's progressed to attempting to exploit it. Once he's there, we've got him. However, that's where it gets tricky... because then we have to continue to play the game w/o being so fake with it that the game's up and Ghengis realizes he's been "played". Personally, I think the best way to resolve it is for the story to progress to a point where Togas' moderation on the issues causes everyone to go back to being 100% supporters of Supreme Lord Togas. Then Ghengis will both think he made the difference in our internal policy AND he'll afterwards realize that Togas' grip on power is stronger than Ghengis might have previously thought

There are risks associated with a strategy like this...

GhengisFarb and GoW, in attempting to "exploit" the division, could be EVEN MORE AGGRESSIVE, believing that the camp supposedly upset with Togas was a peacenik camp afraid of GoW and willing to pay GoW anything. I think we can perhaps avoid this if we play it that the camp upset is upset for PRECISELY WHY GHENGIS IS UPSET, that we supposedly "broke our word" and these people think that's a bad idea. Since it's the same reason Ghengis is upset, he's more likely to buy it (and more likely to think he caused it).

At a later point, when Ghengis realizes he's been "played", he'll become very belligerent toward us to an extent that makes the current belligerence look like child's play. However, this is the point where we can exploit a rift in GoW. You see, the rest of the members of GoW might not like that Ghengis has been "played" and they might like even less that Ghengis is taking being "played" so personally that it's going to adversely affect GoW policy

It's risky, but it's worth considering... needs more discussion. Togas, what do you think? I'm not sure we're up to playing this little game that well, but it's possible we can pull it off (at least in part).

	19-01-2003 02:16									#474
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Very good strategy Arnelos, I can't wait posting on the general forum or talking about a revolt against the king that is brutually quelled, or about the rising discontent towards Togas, (don't tell this to anybody) or portraiting him outside our borders as a tyrant.

I've also thought out a strategy of my own that may solve this problem and many more problems witrh GoW in the future:

1. We can show Ghenghis what his fate will be if he attacks us: Lux and ND benefit of the absence of their troops at home and attacking us. I'm sure that will soften him. He knows that the others don't trust him and that they will take any opportunity to crush him. If he doesn't think so, we should make him believe so by mentioning it every time we chat/PM him. We should also use this strategy to Panzer32, if we do not, Ghenghis will believe it is again just bluff.

quote: Originally posted by dejon On the positive side, I believe GoW has already sufficient damaged their own reputation with ND and Lux that neither would believe a "RP has broken another agreement, they are untrustworthy" story.

2. As an addition on Dejon's idea we could try to make their reputation even worse than it already is so that any warnings, bluff or other offensive talk about us doesn't make sense to the others. They find themselfs talking agains a wall and will be quite easy to handle for us. If we want to attack on of the others, any warnings of GoW shall not be taken for serious and just another attempt to denigrate us.

3. Trying to split GoW in fractions has some risk: we know what we can expect of GoW and we don't know that of Lux and ND. Especially lux is very opportunistic and is wriggling to get the best out of every deal, every time: they try to put nearly accomplished deals off the table to get us in new deals that benefit them more in the new situation.


I think that we should keep peace at all costs, and if a war breaks out we have to keep in contact with them and try to make peace.

Aidun Cian the Older.

	19-01-2003 02:33									#475
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Picahulu finally sent us a message:

Dear Friend History Guy, ambassador of the great merchant nation of Spain,

apologies again for letting you wait so long for an answer. As you're also a man who is keen to learn more about the world, i'm sure you'll understand that my studies have kept me away from diplomacy the last week.

We're also glad that the plot of the Warmongers couldn't harm our good relations. Be assured that we still trust the glorious Spanish people without reservation, as your immediate response and the other letters convinced even the always-doubting voices among our people the Chinese tried to destroy the friendship between our civilizations. In my point of view, this affair indicates the Chinese fear a strong alliance between Spain and Arabia - and i am convinced they've only achieved that our civs will stand together even more close in future times!

My ruler, Sultan Borc informed me you already got Iron Working from the Ottomans, that's why we have to put down that deal. Nevertheless, we would like to get Writing in the framework of our technology alliance. We will have researched Mathematics in about 12 rounds and i'm sure we'll make up a deal beneficial to both of us.

Another important matter we have to talk about is a border contract. As Borc already wrote to Togas, we never signed a contract with the Ottomans because they didn't stop to treaten our unguarded settler, which was the only condition we demanded to accept their proposal. In our point of view, Trip needs a great deal of arrogance to claim we would have broken their proposal as it was their fault the border contract couldn't be established.

At the moment we only expand to the north. Nevertheless we'll need our west OR our south to expand further when the Chinese and the Ottomans prevent us from settling in the north, that's why we have to agree which region will be settled by which civilization. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

Of course we won't explore your homeland until you permit it, nevertheless we are ready to sign a right of passage agreement as soon as you are.

We remain in friendship and peace,
Picahulu, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica
---

I stand by for further orders.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	19-01-2003 02:40									#476
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We should have no problem with ND expanding to their west.

The best thing it will do is close off the route GoW would have to us.

	19-01-2003 03:27									#477
	Put an end to popups!

I like the idea of playing GoW for awhile and am against the tech embargo idea.

One of the four civs will be eliminated eventually, but lets use them to generate more techs while we can. GoW seemed genuinely interested in researching techs the other civs weren't to increase effectiveness.

The more hostile we seem and the more hostile reactions we give them, the more likely they will be planning to attack us.

We need them to not think of us as an enemy if we are to defeat them easier later.

These are just my ideas, and I am far more confident in the opinions of our members who have a better feel for the opposing players than I do.

	19-01-2003 03:29									#478
	Full PM-box? Change here!

History Guy

This is EXCELLENT news. Please get back to ND as soon as you can and let them know that:

A) We desire mathematics and will certainly trade them when it arrives. We will have writing in 10 turns. See if that is a suitable trade for Math.

B) We wish to sign a settlement agreement with them.

C) We would like to sign a RoP in the future. Probably some time after Writing is discovered.

D) We hope that you can feel safe to settle to your west AND your east. We will give up settling to your east (north of Madrid) if you will agree not to settle south of the jungle. This division will give each of us access to gems, and this will allow us access to iron, which you already have.

E) We should draw a settlement link on the map, perhaps. See if they'd like to discuss this, where we each agree to stay on our side of the line.

F) We have allowed your scout to continue in peace, but be careful. Our military advisor has warned that there are barbarians near Pamplona, the city where you are traveling. Our warriors are searching for these rogues to defeat them before they threaten our workers. You must travel carefully with your scout. You may want to stay close to our warriors for protection.

--Togas

	19-01-2003 03:32									#479
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Arnelos,

My suggestion was a reaction to an order from Togas to soften the deal in order to obtain that the warrior leaves our land. My opinion is that the situation does not require that. But on the other hand, as we physically cannot prevent the warrior from going south, we should at least make things as difficult as possible for the warrior. It is not a weak attitude, but a realistic one, without giving up anything we really have.

	19-01-2003 03:34									#480
	Got spare money?

With regards to GoW:

adaMada in your talks with them, let them know that NOT EVERYONE on this team agrees with how I'm handling this situation. State that others, like yourself, favor a more peaceful approach. Let them draw their own conclusions.

Others In chat with GoW members it's OK to let slip a little that you wish this thing were handled differently and that you don't always agree with me. Don't out and out say you disagree, but only give them vague hints that we, as a team, are not so single minded or blindly behind Togas.

If Togas knows that his teammates disagree, he may be more inclinded to accept whatever agreement adaMada makes with Panzer to keep control of the team, and in the future, we could continue to play up the "seeds of mutany" within our team should the need arise.

--Togas