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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:24
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It is my opinion, since my recent evaluation of Vox Controli as being dominated by not only the One Voice, but the Big Mouth (hidden behind the screen) which refuses it's people their rations of squid, thus giving them mental deficiencies, thus leaving them brain washed, that they are ruled by a madman. This One Voice of there's is supposed to show Democracy, but it shows simply Despotism on the worst scale. One mind tells all, and the Great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame, sees all. They believe that attacking their lands would be folly, for they are all of one mind, they think that not 10,000 men could do it. But they are wrong.
It is my opinion that the Vox Controlians, who refuse to share their Book of the Voxians, are doomed. They set themselves up as the most mindless of all civilzations. They are run as though they were drones in a beehive, and they do nothing to stop the agonies they are forced through. Such a people cries to be obliterated, and I am of the opinion that it will not be long before they are destroyed by the people of the Gathering Storm, whom I see as far more of a threat than that mindless rabble known as Vox Controli.
Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica
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dejon
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quote:
Originally posted by jdjdjd
If GS is shut off, and thus limited to how many cities they build - I don't care how many alleged "great" gamers they have, they very well may never overcome this start position.
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The same applies to Vox. Perhaps they will not let GS advance because they are protecting the only land they have available to them. Obviously we are on the largest continent, and smaller continents are not known to have tremendous amounts of space.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:24
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Dear GodKing,
My apologies for not being able to get back to you sooner. there is certainly alot going on within our team, which tends to makes any discussion slip past proposed deadlines. Also, Meshelic lately needs to focus more and more on rl issues, and won't be able to be so active in the position of GS foreign minister, and ambassador to your people. I hope that, for the time being, me replacing him as interim ambassador won't cause any problems.
I'll try to answer all your questions in proper order.
1. Vox.
We have maybe eased tensions between our nations a little, which is good. However, at this point there is little reason to believe that Vox will proof to be the long-term trading partner we hoped to get as a neighbour. The sooner we can meet other Civs (and yes, Spain has always held our highest regard), the better.
2. Non-aggression pact.
Certainly, a non-aggression deal between our nations sounds good, but there are some diplomatic catches which make it difficult for us to agree to one formally. First of all, we have stated before that we are going to honor all deals, and generally play the game honorably. While in essence a noble cause, lately it has come to our attention that there is more then one snake under the grass, it certainly makes this game more challenging.
One of the problems here is the concept of non-aggression: we are a peaceful tribe, and would love to ratify our position more officialy. But, we can't foresee what might happen in the far future, and thus feel wary to commit to long term deals. OTOH, all deals with a fixed end date (like your 50 turns after meeting) are in itself tense, and seem to imply that it is kind of a countdown for hostilities once the deal ends. This scares us even more, as we don't like to imply this, tension is something that builds up over time, and is not supposed to eplode so immediate.
Also, it makes us a bit vulnerable, as it would take away the proverbial stick. For instance, once we would agree to a non-aggression for a longer duration, anybody could sail a settler to what we plan as our future territory, and plop down a city completely surrounded by our territory, undefended. Indeed, it could rely on us for its protection against other civs, as they most likely need to pass through our territory to reach that lone city, which we can't accept because we are sworn to non-aggression. There are more issues like this, and I agree that with a bit of friendliness and openess this kind of situation shouldn't appear in a game, but we don't want to get our hands tied on deals that initially seem beneficial for two parties, but after a while proof to be too constraining for us.
But, these smaller issues could be resolved with a few modifications... the above city-building problem can be easily resolved by including a paragraph in our deal that states that Civ A will not build a city in the neighbourhood of Civ B's territory (e.g. on the same continent within 8 tiles) without Civ B's approval. This approval should be easily given in most cases, but at least it takes away the aggressive nature of settling too close to someone's borders.
Also, the fixed duration issue should be able to be worked around with for instance a running deal: agree to 20 turn non-aggression, but negotiate all 10 turns. So, when a negotation crashes, it would still leave both parties 10 turns to prepare their defense, meanwhile trying to glue the pieces together, and reach a deal anyhow.
... to be continued
3. minimap / contact
In the same respect, we would welcome trading current minimaps with you, certainly as it will guide trading galleys accross the high seas relatively safely. But, those minimaps can also be used to explore possible colony sites on the other continent, and we don't need colonies of any civ near our borders soon. The available land on our piece of land is most likely going to be divided (hopefully peacefully) between Vox and ourselves, there is no abundance, just barely enough. I know, we might seem territorial to you, but at least territorial is better than warmonging. Again, it is a show of honesty that I share with you these concerns, we really would like to avoid becoming them any issues later on. And, we can understand you have similar issues when it comes to your beloved homeland, and would like to anticipate them as well.
If you could agree to such a deal, where we promise not to use minimaps to chose the best spots on the other continent, I'm sure we will be fast to trade our minimap (full proposal will need to get polled in our senate).
BTW, when I was talking about the piece of land explored, I forgot that you are expansionist... through luck, we have explored a lot of land (up until we bumped into Vox, after which scouting stopped), but surely we can't keep up to your glorious explorers. My mistake, for which I apologize.
Also, you were talking of acquiring galleys soon. We have been working toward a similar goal, but the tension with Vox has delayed our progress. Do you have a rough estimate on how long it would take for you to arrive on our shores, and be welcomed with the biggest welcoming party our people could afford? Not only would it make planning for the festival easier, but maybe it could also guide us in our research, so that we can complement each other instead of doing things twice.
4. Tech trades:
we would welcome this very much. As you have contacted many civilizations, we can only imagine you will be advanced in many disciplines. However, we of Gathering Storm are proud to announce we have the best facilities when it comes to research, and our analysists say that the gap between us and the rest of the world will most likely only increase in the coming years. Maybe we can't share any interesting techs with you now (I doubt it, but maybe), but certainly we have the potential to become your best partner when it comes to research. You are right in that this might not be the best time to discuss it, but a lot depends on when you foresee to arrive on our shores. If that moment would already be very close, it might be best to start planning common research goals, instead of just dealing with what we have.
5. Wonder agreements
Sadly, we can't commit to this deal at this point in our game. Of course, our nation also longs for the Great Library, even if we may not be so focused as other teams in building it. But we can't rule out any unforeseen situations: if one of our troops would for instance be promoted to a leader at the right time, I'm certain that the GL would be a sure demand in our team, we can't be constrained then. Case by case deals may be possible, but I doubt that we will get a majority when it comes to 'giving' the GL to any other team, however sweet the deal would be.
.. to be continued (sorry)
]
5. Secrecy.
Don't get me wrong, but to be honest, proposing to gain the minimap of another civ was a bit of a test from our side. Whatever the result of negotiations would have been, we were not going to acquire a minimap in such a dishonorable way. However, we liked to assess how safe our information would be in your hands, how much we could trust you. After all, this is still a fairly young world, and you never know who you deal with. I hope it didn't damage our relations, but it was one of the few options we had to test you, and you passed brilliantly.
We regard secrecy of deals very high, and will never betray our trading partners in such way. But, as you have said before, there is a difference: techs acquired through deals are not the property of the original owner anymore, and can freely be sold again. Where the tech came from is something else, we are not going to tell the origins of any tech. This is certainly different from minimaps, which do kind of belong to te original owner, and are not to be shared. Also, I told you a bit on the relations between us and Vox, this is completely from observation, and nowhere the result of any diplomatic contact between our two civs. What is said in diplomatic contacts will remain secret on our side, to the best of our abilities.
I hope this is a decent reply to your proposal, please contact me if I would have forgotten anything. Also, please don't mind my English: I'm fully aware that it doesn't grasp the little differences in meanings natively speaking people see and understand. Whereever there is doubt, understand that I do not want to imply anything wrong, it most likely is just a language error of me. This is part of the reason I needed this much text to explain myself, I really want to avoid any misunderstanding.
I wish you the best of luck, and let's hope to meet your explorers soon,
DeepO
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:24
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Milord Togas, High Thane of Madrid,
I have despatched by quickest rider this letter, Milord, to Picahulu, Ambassador from the Arabs. It is to your specifications, sir. I hope it pleases you.
quote:
My friend Picahulu, I hail you, most wise and gracious ambassador, our friend in the north, the servant of the most wise and just Sultan Borc, Caliph of all Arabia, Ruler of Neu Theban, master of Neu Demogyptica,
First, let me say that it is good to be taking up the quill to pen this letter to you, my good friend. It is good that we now have that unpleasant business of the Warmonger lies long behind us, so that we may correspond freely, as equals and friends.
Would that I have the time to travel once again to Neu Theban on a diplomatic visit, I would be well pleased indeed.
Down to our business, my friend. Firstly, I have enclosed for your pleasure a good slice of beef, the likes of which few men beyond our borders have tasted. You and the Sultan will feast this evening, and the squid I have enclosed shall also satisfy your tastebuds, I am sure.
Your good Sultan has made known his wish to share with us the secrets of Iron Working, with which we may build fine pieces of work indeed, industry comes about from such trades, and so does well, and commerce is the safeguard against tyranny as you know, and friendship is heightened by it, and that, to we Spanairds, is most dear.
We would like to know what the Sultan would like for Iron Working, which intrigues us. Matters of science interest us greatly, especially members of the court. Our seers are find men indeed, though often they are found to be so wrapped up in computation and deep thought that any attempt to procure from them much of anything is useless, for they simply bob about speechless, contemplating all things. However, when they do open their mouths, the most wonderful things they teach us...
As for Iron Working, we should like to know, once again, what is the requested price for it. We should like to present 25 gold tonnes to your kingdom in payment for it, and this is a generous sum indeed, as you know. Rare is it when such a king's ransom is to be found. The vaults of our treasury bear all this, most of it the profit of the squid trade, or many other of our commercial pursuits, for which we are so famous.
I await your response.
Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from His Magnificence, the Beneficient Majesty Togas, Thane Lord of all Spain, Overlord of the Visigoths, Flattener of the Vandals |
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:24
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IMPORTANT:
GoW has a warrior in our territory. I'm sure they're merely scouting, but we need to handle this appropriately.
adaMada -- Send an urgent PM to GoW saying that:
Representatives from The Explorer's Guild greet their warrior group as they exit the Jungle and inform them that this small valley they have stepped into is Spain. Tell them that we have control of the region south of the jungle all the way to the western ocean and that we are currently settling this region. Let them know that T.E.G. is here to protect this region. They may stay and feast with us tonight and exchange stories, because GoW are FRIENDS OF SPAIN, and we hope to continue our good friendship. We also hope that our recent gift of gold to their nation has found favor with their people and shown them how much we value their friendship. However, In spite of our great friendship, we cannot allow them to travel any further into Spain. It is a matter of pride to the Spanish people and their Despot.
Say that Togas has decreed that no foreign warrior groups or scouts may travel through Spain. Our warriors will enforce this decree if necessary. We will trade maps with them upon discovering Mapmaking, if they are interested in our geography.
We will give them fresh water and supplies for their trip back through the jungle. We wish them well on their journey but cannot allow them to travel any further into Spanish territory.
History Guy -- Get back to ND and tell them that our warrior outside of their territory is merely exploring the jungle and is taking great care to stay out of their country. Ask them again what they want for Iron Working, if anything. Also tell them that we want to work out our borders and negotiate with them about future settlement sites. We want to coexist peacefully with them. Stress to them that El Valle De Los Torros to the south of the jungle is Spanish territory and we will not settle north of it. We hope to use the jungle as a border between us.
jdjdjd -- Get back to Trip about the Iron Working sale. I just offered him Alphabet and 25g ... he should offer us Iron Working in exchange, per our discussion.
Let me know what he says.
--Togas
Last edited by Togas on 16-01-2003 at 06:30
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dejon
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I will add that the PM to GoW must be sent quickly. Because the evening has just started and the turn goes around quickly at this time of day. It will be GoW's turn within 12 hours, I would guess.
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adaMada
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"The Iron" Stadium, Ubergorsk, Apolytonia (C3DG)
Mar 2000
time: 00:24
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Togas,
Your PM box is full. Considering it's actually nothing that shouldn't be posted here anyway, here's the message I sent to Panzer and copied Ghengis on.
quote:
Dear Panzer,
How do things bode in the fruitful lands of GoW? It’s been far too long since our nations have conversed at any length, and it is a pity that we’ve lacked an opportunity to sit around the bargaining table as friends in the past weeks.
I’ve been informed by Togas, our Great and Illustrious Depot, that representatives from Our Explorer’s Guild have made contact with your warrior group as you’ve left the jungle. Our explorers greet your warrior group, and are especially reverent to be in the presence of such masters of war, but we regret to inform you that the small valley your troops now occupy is part of the Spanish homeland. We consider the region from south of the jungle to the western ocean to be our home. Indeed, our exploration guild has taken the mission of protecting our boarder upon itself, and was keeping watch over our homes and families along our border when they had the pleasure of meeting your troops.
I’ve been asked to inform you that you’re welcome to stay and feast with us tonight, as España is proud to call Glory of War a friend. Indeed, I believe our Depot recently saw it fit to engrave a statement of our friendship in gold and deliver it to you as a gift, wise and great as he is. In spite of this magnificent friendship, however, we cannot allow your warrior group any further into España. It is not only a matter of pride to the Spanish people and their Depot, but we are also weary of allowing armed troops through the lands of our children, as we fear for their safety in the presence of clubs – children have the most wretched tendency to place their hands upon places they don’t belong. Indeed, Togas has decreed that no foreign warrior groups or scouts may travel through Spain else they wish to endure the wraith of the Spanish Armies, and no exceptions can be made in this matter, even for such valued and respected friends.
We understand and admire your desire to learn of our lands and geography, and would suggest that we may soon be able to offer alternatives rather than sending scouts to report. As you are doubtlessly aware, both of our respective scholars have been mumbling about some newfangled technology of ‘mapmaking’ for some time, which would allow us to give you the same details you would learn for yourself were your warriors permitted to precede. Once our scholars have broken the mysteries of this knowledge, our ‘map’ could be transported far and wide, and we would be happy to exchange maps with you at that time.
If you wish, we will happily supply your warrior group with fresh water and supplies for their trip back through the jungle. We are indeed sorry that we cannot permit them any further into Spanish land at this time, and we hope that we will eventually see the day where all children can frolic comfortably, with the knowledge that warriors of all clans will take it upon their clubs to protect them and do them no harm. We hope that you understand our situation.
Best wishes from Iberia,
adaMada
Togas’ Ambassador to Glory of War
NOTE: I've sent this to GhengisFarb as well, as I was asked to make contact about the matter as soon as possible, and I wanted to ensure that the message reach your team as soon as is possible, considering the quick turn around of most turns in these times.
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-- adaMada
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dejon
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Very well written, adaMada! Firm, but friendly.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:24
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I received the following message from Calc II
quote:
Okay, Trip told me that we had an agreement of alphabet + 25 gold for Iron working. And I thought about if we could get a better tech instead of tech plus gold. ( I was hoping to trade writing for IW) But because we don't have alphabet, this is not possible, and trading alphabet PLUS writing for Iron working is undoable. So I came up with an idea that I proposed to trip which may or maynot sound good to you. First off, we could not offer you iron working during the turn we recieved the offer of 25 gold plus alphabet from you. The offer window popped up before we got the message of discovering IW So we had to cancel it. So I encouraged trip to propose new deal and see if you would like it. Trip was supposed to send the offer to you. Sorry if he has. Then this enitre PM is redundant. Just ignore it.
We want writing cause it opens up tech trees, which gives us more option to research. We cant get writing because we dont have alphabet.
So, if you can give us alphabet and writing, we will give you iron working for now. When we have writing, we will be able to research more things with more flexibility for tech buddying.
The next time we swap tech, we will repay the debt with 2 techs for 1, but since these are higher level on the tech tree, you should be able to benefit slightly from acquiring slightly more expensive techs.
I know the problem is that you give us more first and expect us to give more later to compensate the first trade. Actually, we'd be giving you more overall, but the question remains, can you guys trust us? We Lux Invicta would say that we will keep our word and payback the tech debt on the next tech swap, but its upto you. If you dont have enough faith in us, dont accept this wild proposal. It's okay. We can understand how this could be difficult to accept and we can always stick to the original plan. However, if you agree to this, I think this could only pay off good in that it will stregthen our trust within one another and you will benefit more overall. Our benefit is that we get writing so that we can open up paths to tech trees. In the long run our benefit should benefit you as well since we can tech swap a better tech.
So what do you think? We have offered Iron working to you in our turn because your offer had to be cancelled. If you like the sound of new propoal plan, offer alphabet and writing. If you would like to stick to original propasal, offer the alphabet + 25 gold again. Either way, lets continue having good fruitful relationship between the lux invicta team and espana(roleplay)!
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This is my reply to him
quote:
Calc II,
Yours is the first PM I've received, however, it is very likely that Trip sent a PM to jdjdjd of my team, as he is the ambassador to Lux Invicta.
Please get back to me so that I am clear on what your team is proposing. Are you saying:
We can either trade you Alphabet + 25g for Iron Working now.
OR
trade you Alphabet for Iron Working now, then Trade you Writing for another tech in the future ??? What tech would you propose? Would it be just "any tech" or a specific tech?
We do not have Writing yet. We are currently researching it, though, and expect to have it in less than 20 turns.
Please let me know as soon as you can so that we know if we should offer Alphabet & 25g on our next turn, or only Alphabet.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
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Looks good on our part. They're going to stick with the original deal or offer us something better. Frankly, if my #2 proposal to them is true, I'm included to trade 2 techs for 2 techs and I don't care what tech they throw in ... any of them would be worth it. We get the benefit from either trade option.
--Togas
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dejon
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In response to his question, "can you guys trust us?", the answer has to be No. We don't know if we can trust them yet, and I do not think this proposition is a good first way for them to earn our trust. With trust and respect, you start small and work your way up.
If they have just finished IW, how long would we wait for the other tech? By the time they have completed another tech, we may already have acquired (via trade, huts) all suitable ones. Especially with Mysticism already in hand.
I suggest we tell them that they must start smaller with earning our trust, and that they will do so by honoring the original plan: IW for Alphabet and 25 gold.
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11-01-2003 01:33
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Good job, Ada. 
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