28-12-2002 23:43									#151
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I have written a response to the Neu Demogypticans. I apologize for not doing so earlier, but all last evening I was away and without a computer, and therefore unaware of the encounter.

The letter:
--

I hail you, Senor Picahulu, most brilliant and gracious Ambassador of the Arabian peoples, the diamonds of the northern world, the most glorious people of the word.

Firstly, may I express my pleasure at finally encountering you in the flesh. I apologize for not being able to do so as I wished at an earlier time, but I was on important business elsewhere and thus unaware of our encounter with your man Arne, who is by the way very good at frying fish.

On behalf of my glorious Lord Togas, Despot and High King of the Land of Iberia, where the Vandals and Visigoths flatten out beneath him as his carpet, I address you to relay to your most glorious Caliph, Abu Borc, the following…

We would be most kindly pleased and gratified if you would allow us to purchase from you the glorious secrets of Masonry, an ancient and noble art, for the price of 29 tonnes of gold brick, mined by our slaves over many generations. It is our entire treasury’s worth, and indeed a king’s ransom, and therefore it is, we believe, and beg you to accept, worth the technology. Remember, Masonry is a thing owned by all others on this earth, or so we believe.

Alphabet, on the other hand, is something we are arguing over at the moment, I’m afraid. Such an advancement certainly calls for more than, I am sorry to say, Masonry, which is owned by most everyone. Alphabet is a seminal achievement. It is also unique. No one else in the world has created for themselves such a masterpiece of linguistic construction as the Alphabet of the Spanish. There are few who do not covet such a thing. We are unsure on what we’d let it go for. Even now there is debate.

We ask, would your government be prepared to give us two technologies for our Alphabet?

As for other civilizations, we’d like to know our way around the world thanks to your generosity. We have traded maps already, and we have both profited immensely from it, proving to the world our friendship. We’d now like to encounter some other civilizations, though none are as glorious as yours. What is this red civilization we see? Are this men of Lux Invicta, or the mysterious Vox Controli?

We are also hearing stories of a people who call themselves the Warmongers, and have heard of their veracious appetite for warfare, and their glib tongue, and their words of gold which turn to poison. We have heard that they are untrustworthy, and claim to be mercenaries, but will instead stab one in the back. We also know that you have the unfortunate position of being place nearest to them. We fear that you may be the target of their aggression, and would like to make sure that you would not fight alone. Perhaps at the earliest opportunity we should sign a treaty and make friendship firm. A pact, perhaps. We ask you to consider this, so that we may stand together as friends and allies against such dangers as the Warmongers.

I await your words.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from Spain
---

I hope this is satisfactory. I touched on everything Milord Togas said to in his briefing.

I also agree with Oliver that there is an alliance with Lux Invicta. It would only make perfect sense.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	29-12-2002 02:03									#152
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The references to the Warmongers are perhaps a bit explicit, but I like it.

	29-12-2002 02:34									#153
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I thank you, Acting Despot, Lord Lorenzo.

The references to the Warmongers were intentional, as per Togas' directives as laid out in a private letter.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	29-12-2002 07:21									#154
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Wow, this thread is getting long...

I have finally met and chatted with Admiral. He would not commit to knowing anyone, I even told him basically that I knew they had met Neu Dem and one other. He would not confirm anything only they met someone.

He also joked that they had destroyed ND. Maybe a ruse to hide the fact they are in cohoots with ND.

He will get back to me within a week on the minimap trade. Of course, we seem to know where they are now, to our North, and East of ND. But, still seeing their minimap may still help us to shed light of things to their north.

	29-12-2002 10:00									#155
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Señor deCalamari, I read Aunt Joaquína your letter and she said “With words like that, I hope Lord Togas keeps him in Arabia as far away from my impressionable young girls as he can get.” Meanwhile when you get home if she catches you anywhere near the College of Etiquette

	29-12-2002 11:25									#156
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I raise this as a possibility

maybe ND and Lux DONT have a major deal... but Lux wants a trade monopoly with ND, so they are telling us they want an embargo?

Or, maybe Lux is being honest here, and they want to conquer some or all of ND in the ancient age.

	29-12-2002 21:21									#157
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Nice letter señor Calamari. I'm happy to see that the Spanish interests are so well defended far from our lands, so I can concentrate on my work at the nearest lands with tranquility.

	29-12-2002 23:38									#158
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Well, I have another piece of correspondence from the self-proclaimed Caliph of Arabia, through his flunky and chief diplomat, Picahulu. Please comment immediately, as I should like to make a response in the next thirty-some hours.
--

(NOTE: He wrote two letters, both identical except for the fact that he accidentally identified the red team as the Warmongers, and he writes back now

please accept my apologizes for telling you something wrong accidentially. The red nation are NOT the warmongers, this is Lux Invicta. The Warmongers are grey and located at the upper right corner on our part of the world map. They're hard to tell on the minimap, maybe you have overseen them.
If you haven't posted my previous letter to your forum, please use the corrected one below.

Sorry again for my lack of concentration

Here is the corrected letter.

Friend Hernan,

thank you for your letter, it was - as always - a great delight to hear from you. I am pleased to hear that Arne showed off his cooking skills,we would be grateful if you can teach him to prepare some of your spanish meals as the spanish food is famous in the whole known world.

Although we think that 29 Gold is a good offer for Masonry, we even more like the direction of your second proposal. The parliament of ND agreed to give pottery in addition to masonry for Alphabet and a little sum of Gold, let's say about 15 tonnes.
I think you'll agree this is a good trade for both of us as Spain can keep the half of her treasury and discover two great technologies at once, which would enable you to build Granarys, City walls and the Pyramids.

Concernig your question towards the nations next to us, i can tell you that the red nation is Lux Invicta and the grey ones are the scruplesless Warmongers. We appreciate your sorrows about our safety and would like to thank you for your offer to establish a pact. We are currently discussing internally how this pact could look like. Maybe you have an idea?

Although none of the world civilizations will have built up an operational army in the next 1000 years, we think that the Chinese Warmongers will threaten not only us but also any other nation on the continent which has bad luck to be the victim of his army which can be hired by money. That's why we absolutely should discuss ways to prevent them from getting so strong that they will terrify the whole world. I think we should think of every possibility, without any taboos.

We are looking forward to hear from you again soon and remain in friendship.

Sincerly Yours,
Picahulu, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica
---

Comments, please.

How should we act concerning the Alphabet and 15 tonnes of our precious gold for Masonry and Pottery?

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	29-12-2002 23:45									#159
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Senor Ninot-- This could be the case, but I suggest that we keep good faith with Neu Demogyptica for now, as I think they could be good allies (and besides...I'd be out of a job!...just kidding...), and certainly it would be better to have some in that dangerous part of the world on our side, as Vox Controli and the Warmongers also loom ominously there, and to unnecessarily make another enemy there may be our downfall.

Senor Pikesfan-- What? But the girls keep inviting me! I have no hand in it! How am I, a chivalrous young Spaniard to turn down the invitation of the roses of Madrid in such a blunt way? Nay! I'm sorry to say, if I'm invited, I simply have to come...against my will...of course...really...no...I mean it...

Senor Oliver-- Thank you, sir, for your kind words.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	29-12-2002 23:46									#160
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And, what the? There's a smiley in that letter! Get thee out of there!!

	29-12-2002 23:58									#161
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sounds good to me, but it might invalidate our ability to tech whore Alphabit. But we have no idea on when we will encounter another Tribe, so the deal is probibly best to be made now.

As for GF's claim of ND having 12 techs from huts, etc, if that was the case, they would already have aquired Alphabet before being "gifted" a higher level tech from a Hut.

E_T

	30-12-2002 01:02									#162
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Sounds like a good trade to me. Potery would be extremely useful for us in REXing, and it's on the way to mapmaking.

I say... we can trust in them... for this time. They will benefit from our alphabet, but we will also benefit from their techs.

	30-12-2002 01:13									#163
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History Guy,
I don't know the value of pottery -- in all honesty, it's been so long since I played Civ 3, I barely remember what it does . Having said that, we should consider masonry a petty bonus at best -- we already have an agreement to get masonry from GoW, and once we make that trade, we'll be able to make several major trades.

Let's assume that GoW hasn't given Warrior Code to ND and that ND hasn't given anything to GoW. Working under that assumption, we can pull off a huge tech coup by waiting until we've met GoW.

I have nothing against the deal ND has offered us -- it sounds very good to me. Having said that, if we're willing to wait until we've met GoW, we can make two deals with a much better result, and wind up with a much higher techwhore potential. Obviously, there's one downside -- both GoW and ND seem to want us to sign tech embargos against the other, and any such action would probably put us in bad light with both teams, which would be a major point against it in my mind.

Doesn't ND have contacts with someone else (Lux)? Could we trade for contact with Lux and start working on deals with them before we take this one now?

I agree that this is a very good deal -- but I think we're giving away a bigger, more complete tech trade that we could have in a few turns. Why don't we at least wait for Togas to return and formulate some sort of overall diplomatic policy on our relations with these groups? If nothing else, we should decide what role we want to play in the coming conflicts -- this series of trades will help shape our relationships with all of the other teams in the region. We could establish an alliance with any team by giving them a favorable trade here -- or we could firmly establish our neutrality by trading whatever techs they give us away. Finally, when Togas and I planned the GoW deal, we gave them a very favorable one (with the idea of working towards a friendship at minimum). If we want to get out of such a 'nice' deal, we can aquire masonry now, and then renegotiate with GoW.

(On a totally different note: GoW saying that ND has 'twelve techs' -- I'd say that's a bit of roleplay, and Ghengis means that they've got several. Togas seemed to believe so too...).

-- adaMada

	30-12-2002 01:54									#164
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Was Contact with the others an Option when we had made the ND Contact?

I know that there was a Quick meeting about this, but there was no report as to what they had Vs. what we had. Or is that Info not available in PTW as it is in Regular SP?

E_T

	30-12-2002 02:11									#165
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix at the 3.100 BC thread [OOC] If we see at the editor values, Masonry is rated 40, Pottery 20 and Alphabet 50. Since Masonry is owned by 5 other civs, its current rate must be around 20 (btw, I don't remember the formula). [/OOC] This means that the deal proposed by señor Clemente is widely OK. Martin Astronicus III

That is : no add gold to the Alphabet vs. Masonry & Pottery deal

	30-12-2002 02:45									#166
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With Neu Dem's contacts, they are bound to believe they could recoup any losses from a deal with us by trading it with other nations.

I agree with Ada that we should not rush this deal and lose out on the opportunity to techwhore ourselves.

Maybe we could tell them we have acquired Masonry on our own-- we will get it eventually anyway from other nations. Tell them it would no longer be in our best interest to make the trade, but don't tell them how we got it. We can then stall so as to make contact with other nations, keep the value of Alphabet high, come up with a better all around deal by techwhoring, and avoid the political pressure they would put on us to make the deal now. Who knows, Neu Dem may make an offer of some other techs in the meantime; we are fairly sure they have a tech lead anyway.

	30-12-2002 03:24									#167
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The question is : can we evaluate how long we'll get to contact other civs ?

If it's matter of max. 3-4 turns, maybe we should delay this deal.

Perhaps I've missed something, but could we have an updated thread with the status of all the current deals and intentions with/to the other civs, please ?

	30-12-2002 03:43									#168
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People talk of techwhoring Alphabet but I don't think we have a long window of opportunity to do so. Alphabet is a first level technology and so easy to choose to be the next to research. We have only met one civ so far and I think T.E.G. is going in the wrong direction if we want to meet more. By the time we meet others, it may be too late to trade it, let alone techwhore it as more people will have already discovered it.

This deal may be the best we can get.

	30-12-2002 03:45									#169
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Astrologix,
If you look at the minimap, you'll see that GoW is only a short distance (twelve tiles or something?) above ND. I believe they said (in the past) that they'd be willing to meet us half way. Meeting them would be more than three or four turns, but is a very achievable goal.

I am personally unsure as to our intentions with GoW. Early in the game, my primary goal was to set us up to become early allies, with the viewpoint that it's easier to become enemies from friends than friends from enemies. I believe we are in a good position to ally with them against our surrounding nations, but there is a good deal of resistance against any such proposal -- to be fair, resistance with good reason. When Togas comes back, I think our first priority should be to clarify our diplomatic status with other nations. We are in position to become close allies with either GoW or a Lux/ND alliance (assuming one exists) -- which do we feel would benefit us most? Can we control a strong GoW, and (as long as we can avoid becoming their targets) do we need to? Personally, I've had no diplomatic contact from GoW's ambassador, but it sounds like Togas has had a good deal of communication with Ghengis -- though it makes me rather useless , he can comment better than I can at this time.

-- adaMada

	30-12-2002 03:45									#170
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Maybe we could tell them we have acquired Masonry on our own-- we will get it eventually anyway from other nations.

Won’t the game itself tell them this is a lie? All they have to do is click on our leader head and say "We would like to make a deal" and check the technology lists and then say "Never mind."

	30-12-2002 04:22									#171
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan Won’t the game itself tell them this is a lie? All they have to do is click on our leader head and say "We would like to make a deal" and check the technology lists and then say "Never mind."

They cannot see our technology list. Multiplayer diplomacy won't allow that. IIRC, I don't think there is a way for them to verify ANYTHING that we do or don't have; someone correct me if I'm wrong.

As for not being able to techwhore Alphabet, I think we have plenty of time to wait. At this phase, everyone is more than likely concerned with defense, and even if they actually did consider that their biggest priority and research it, that would take a minimum of 20-25 turns to get. Legoland is probably on another continent, too; they won't have the ability to get in the way of us selling it on this continent 'til its too late.

	30-12-2002 06:28									#172
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If we have contact with ND in the game, why can't we see the techs they have that we don't?

Sorry, I have just got PTW and need to do some upgrades to my laptop to install - so I can't see for myself.

If they are willing to offer Pottery and Masonry for Alphabet and 15g, on first round, imagine what else they may have? How about Pottery, Masonry and a third tech? or Pottery Masonry and contacts to Lux and/or GW? the ugency then we'll be that we need to right away offer Alphabet to anyone else we get contact for in this deal.

Continue negotiations with another offer they will likely find to high, so they need to make a counter offer. This should buy some time.

I remind, we have a possible offer from Lux to trade mini maps, I await their official offer. Do we want it since we know where they are? or do we want to give the appearance we don't and make the trade? We get the benefit of seeing another civ on their mini map.

They probably would be interested in a tech trade. They have, however, indicated they would not wish to form any alliance at this juncture.

	30-12-2002 08:07									#173
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It not being my job to decide on this, I should like to hear from Arnelos before a response is sent.

My opinion, though, is that if we cannot wean them off this insatiable lust for 15 tonnes of gold, we should make the deal, as is. I sincerely doubt we can "techwhore" Alphabet for very long at all. If we do not make the trade, and someone else makes the discovery, we may have simply lost our chance of making anything at all, and indeed strengthened Neu Demogyptica by not making the trade. I think it should be made.

I await the word of Lorenzo Clemente, Acting Despot, or Lord Togas, if he arrives home early, or Senor Dejon, Former Marshal, and new Chancellor.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica

	30-12-2002 08:37									#174
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Togas/Arnelos/Dejon,
If such a decision (to sell Alphabet to ND and aquire Masonry) is made, please also make a decision on what I should ask GoW for in renegotation (and what I should tell em) -- just to shave some time off the whole process .

-- adaMada

	30-12-2002 11:49									#175
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Togas/Arnelos/Dejon, If such a decision (to sell Alphabet to ND and aquire Masonry) is made, please also make a decision on what I should ask GoW for in renegotation (and what I should tell em) -- just to shave some time off the whole process . -- adaMada

Got it. I'm sending an e-mail to Togas about this... hopefully he'll respond with a decision before our next turn (or play the turn himself and decide).

If Togas doesn't respond, I and/or Dejon can give you something to tell GoW.

	30-12-2002 13:14									#176
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Decision on the trades:

I have given this a lot of thought over the past weekend while I was away. Here's what conclusions I've drawn up:

We know that Neu Dem started with Pottery & Ceremonial Burial. They now have Masonry, which they likely traded C.B. for with Lux.

We know that GoW wants to trade us C.B. & Alph for W.C. & Masonry. That means they haven't aquired C.B. from Neu Dem yet probably because Neu Dem already found W.C. in a hut and already aquired Masonry.

The way GoW is talking about ND, it's likely they made a major tech trade with Lux, and all they're missing is Alphabet.

They could find Alphabet, or not. We could hold out and get a better deal from ND, or hold out and trade it to GoW first, then make a better deal. Both of these options seem favorable to me, but there is some risk in each.

Here's what we do:

A) We tell ND that we have just received an offer to buy Masonry for 20g from "another nation" and that we're now interested in Pottery & another tech. See what they can offer. If they make a better offer, we discuss it. Bottom line, we either get a better offer or we DELAY this thing a few more turns for step B.

B) We turn TEG north NOW, contact GoW, and get with the meet-in-the-middle program. The Magyars take care of the western exploration.

C) Our BOTTOM LINE is Alphabet for Pottery & Masonry, but we only accept that if they refuse to go any higher.

I am willing to gamble that in the 3-8 turns it takes us to meet GoW that ND will not get Alphabet. I think it's worth the gamble. I want us to aim for aquiring W.C., Masonry, Pottery, and another tech from ND. If we get Masonry from GoW, I am willing to pay ND a little for the extra tech.

History Guy, please inform N.D. that we have "another offer for Masonry for 20g and that we are exploring it. Please substitute another tech for Masonry." Let us know how they respond.

adaMada, get GoW to send a scout south NOW, tell them we will be coming from just west of the ND capital, following the coastline north in their direction. Get them to comit to meeting us first. Explain to them that we met ND and that we are now debating a trade deal with ND, but that Togas wants to trade with GoW first ... but if we don't meet them soon, Togas will trade with ND first.

--Togas

	30-12-2002 13:28									#177
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Diplomacy Policies:

We are to SEEK FRIENDSHIP with all nations initially.

We are to communicate and discuss with them all options for agreements that can be reached. We must be sure not to promise anything, but be positive and be proactive to feel out the other nations. We are weighing them to see who will be the best possible allies in the future.

We are to propose trades generally, but do not commit to any trade or any trade specifics until clearing it with me.

We want to get as much information out of them as possible about who their neighbors are, what techs they will trade, who their enemies are, what they know about the world, etc.

Some specific orders:

DO NOT trade mini-maps with Lux. We don't need to give them any info about our location. We know where they are and that's all we need to know from them. Frankly, I don't even trust them to give us a real map. Lux has earned a failing grade thus far in their diplomacy efforts and I pitty jdjdjd for having to deal with them.

I still want our scout to find and make contact with them, but we will approach them from the east and keep our actual location a secret.

Do not give away the location of any other civ. I have told Legoland that GoW is "North east of them" as it's helped our cause to strengthen their ties to us and make them side with us out of fear of GoW.

You are authorized to publically state that you fear and do not trust GoW to all nations, however, I want to make it clear that *I* do not fear or distrust them any more than I fear and distrust every other nation. GoW is equally dangerous, and perhaps less dangerous than most because of their known nature and pre-imposed limits. I do not want any of you buying into the hype about them, but we will certainly sell the hype to everyone who will listen.

I fear ND the most, but I have a plan for them. This will be posted in the "About Lux, ND, and GoW" thread.

--Togas

	30-12-2002 17:50									#178
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Señor Ruby_Maser:

Just remember that they cannot see our tech list, but if they can offer us Masonry that means that we don't have masonry.

	30-12-2002 18:16									#179
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The Great Togas has spoken!

	30-12-2002 19:41									#180
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa Señor Ruby_Maser: Just remember that they cannot see our tech list, but if they can offer us Masonry that means that we don't have masonry.

Thank you for correcting me. I don't have much experience with the PBEM diplomacy yet but this makes sense. As it were though, our most-wise leader came up with a good way to avoid the trap.