30-12-2002 21:05									#181
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Togas,
Thank you, my lord. I'll dispatch a messanger to GoW's Ambassador Panzer immedietly.

quote: Originally posted by Togas You are authorized to publically state that you fear and do not trust GoW to all nations, however, I want to make it clear that *I* do not fear or distrust them any more than I fear and distrust every other nation. GoW is equally dangerous, and perhaps less dangerous than most because of their known nature and pre-imposed limits. I do not want any of you buying into the hype about them, but we will certainly sell the hype to everyone who will listen.

As I have said several times, I have given GoW's ambassador the impression that I'm fighting a heavily divided nation that distrusts them when I come with their deals. This helped us get a better deal at least once (I believe it got us a nonagression pact with the minimap trade, since I doubt they were afraid of us attacking them), and I think the policy's a good one for now (until we decide our onlook). As such, irregardless of your true feelings about GoW, it will also help me (for the time being) if it seems like several prominent members of our society distrusts them. The fact that we will continue to bring them deals will lead them to believe (hopefully) that this is just a powerful minority, but I believe this whole diplo-play will be very useful in the future. I think it would be counterproductive, however, to overplay it -- if we have everyone on our team saying "GoW's evil", we'll never be able to push a deal through. As such, in my next communication, I'll leave the impression that I've been fighting hard to save Masonry for GoW, that Togas is willing to consider all sources as equal and as such will take the deal if we can make contact soon enough, and (as such) that if we don't make contact soon enough, the deal is likely to go to another nation.

-- adaMada
Ambassador to GoW

	30-12-2002 21:08									#182
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK. As Lux has been lax , I will not pursue them with regards to the mini map issue. If they come back to me saying they want to, then I'll play games back at them, without insulting them.

	30-12-2002 21:36									#183
	My message to Panzer32 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Panzer, Greetings to my counterpart from GoW. I trust that you are well, and that your team is prosperous? As you have probably guessed we would, we have made contact with Neu Dem. A strong segment of our population has been pushing hard for making a tech trade with them, as we have already made contact and have several techs that interest us. Luckily, our great leader Togas does not share the strange distrust of your people that has infected some influential minority of our team. Though the agreement we made allowed for a change in deal if we encountered another civilization, Togas has decided to attempt to make the original deal we discussed. As such, we would ask that we commence plans for our scouts to meet between our two great nations as we had once discussed, that we can trade with you rather than helping ND any more than is necessary for our welfare. We already have a scout near the ND capital, and I can get more specific movement information if you agree to the meet. Please let me know if you will consent to sending a scout to meet with us. Though my lord is very wise and I trust he will make the right decision, I fear internal pressures if we find ourselves waiting too long. I apologize for the abruptness of this communiqué, but I myself have only recently been given instructions, and wanted to begin discussion as soon as is possible. -- adaMada Togas' Ambassador to GoW

It's light on roleplay, but I wasn't lying when I said I wanted to get it out ASAP -- the sooner they've made their decision, the sooner we can start to move with the deal. I overplayed our distrust of ND, but as long as ND and GoW aren't comparing notes, I don't think we risk much .

Will comment more on the overall diplomatic situation later -- have to go do some real life stuff now .

-- adaMada

	30-12-2002 22:17									#184
	Re: My message to Panzer32 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by adaMada quote: We already have a scout near the ND capital -- adaMada

We do? Where is their capital on the map I think I missed it.

	30-12-2002 22:28									#185
	Re: Re: My message to Panzer32 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Thrumble We do? Where is their capital on the map I think I missed it.

Very good point. I was going off of information Togas told me in his earlier message, but I misread . Togas said we'd be coming from west of the ND capital, and I assumed that we already had a scout around that area. Looking at the map, our scout is already on the coastline, meaning that it would be heading north, up past ND's capital. It's a minor mistake, but for the sake of correctness, I canceled my previous message and resent with the last two lines changed to this:

quote: We already have a scout ready to move up the coastline, west of the ND capital to meet you.

It gives away a bit more information, but nothing that really matters.

Thanks for pointing it out -- I would've gone on thinking that we had a scout right there for days . (The screenshots are great, but it's not really the same as seeing the game for yourself...)

-- adaMada

	30-12-2002 22:35									#186
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd As Lux has been lax

Maybe some presents would soften them up. Give them some lox and a lynx.

	30-12-2002 22:40									#187
	Re: Re: My message to Panzer32 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Thrumble We do? Where is their capital on the map I think I missed it.

See this post for a approxamate Neu Dem Capital Loaction.

	30-12-2002 23:06									#188
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

O Wise Togas, in accordance with your directives, I have dispatched this message to Picahulu, Envoy from the barbarian Arabs, who have no Alphabet, and cannot thus write notes to the milkman,

quote: Greetings and hail, Picahulu, Gracious Ambassador of the Glorious and Magnificient Arabian People of the City of Neu Thebes, under Borc, Glorious Caliph of the Prophet, Speaker of the Word, I thank you for your most excellent letter, which delighted the members of my court. We are very happy to have opportunity to trade with such mete and good people as your own, the glorious people of the Arabic tongue, the highest of all tongues in the northern countries. In response to your fair request, I have mailed along with the letter a holiday sampler of the best of Spanish cuisine, with my own original recipe for fried calamari, the best of Spanish cuisine, and many other excellent dishes, minus the ham, which we understand is not something to be eaten in your country. That is alright, for we much prefer the seafood. And now, sir, we are down to business. In the course of human events, a good deal of things have occured. You see, sir, we now have a much smaller offer from another land for the glorious, but as of yet hidden, secrets of Masonry. This other party has asked us for 20 gold for this secret, after they considered that every other civilization has it, and the value is significantly lessened. We are obviously delighted by the offer, and are very close to considering it, and thus we will be forced to turn down your however generous offer. Instead, we should like to put forward another offer entirely. We have Alphabet, and we understand that you still do not, and so we'd like to know if you could trade for it Pottery and another technology, if another is handy as of now. Your wisest men will note that Alphabet is the most glorious discovery known to man, and it should not be overlooked. Therefore, we ask for Pottery and such another technology for the trade. Please do consider this, Wise Picahulu. Your nation shall be given what is perhaps the greatest single asset of these dark times. As for these Chinese Warmongers, barbarians as they are, I agree that they are terribly dangerous as they are. They lie in wait like the spider, under his web, hidden by the leaves, until the small animal comes across it, and nestles down, and then it leaps for the kill. The Warmongers will undoubtedly be looking for a weak civilization, and alone, we are all very weak. We know that it is still too early for them to have much advantage, and yet we understand that they have incredible powers in the fields of industry and weaponry, and are able to make giant armies in the smallest amounts of time, and that they carry a bow, from which they can fire darts that pick off the quarry from a very long distance away. Cowardly as it may sound, it is terribly dangerous, and we should try and ally against such powerful force. I trust your government would, as soon as possible, like to cement some agreements to make us allies. We are, as always, your best friends, allies, and brothers, the Spanish people. Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger Ambassador from Spain By order of Milord, Togas, Great Despot, Lord of Madrid, Overlord of the Visigoths, Conqueror of the Vandals, and Gracious and Wise King of Madrid, Friend of the Arabic Peoples

This Picahulu responds quickly, so I shall be awaiting his Private Messenger, who despite his girth is also a very fast runner.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to the Arabs

	30-12-2002 23:36									#189
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gathering storm has asked not for our mini map - but the mini map of another (undisclosed) team for a copy of their mini map. Per togas' post above, I will decline this. Hopefully they will have something to come back with. They are having internal problems right now as nye is stepping down as leader of his team. No idea why, other than RL issues is the report. I will let you know as things progress.

GK

	31-12-2002 00:12									#190
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Gathering storm has asked not for our mini map - but the mini map of another (undisclosed) team for a copy of their mini map. GK

Sounds like they've met an unit from another civ (Legoland? Vox?), and are planning an archers rush...

	31-12-2002 00:50									#191
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

GS's offer is intreguing. My gut says no but I would like to hear some discussion on this. Would it be wise to give them the mini of, say, GoW? Perhaps it would be better to give them a manufactured mini that shows where Lux is? GS was originally called "Trash Trip's Ass" ... and since Lux never actually traded it to us, we wouldn't be breaking an agreement with them. We'd just cut out ND from it.

I really want to know where GS is. With that knowlege, we could probably estimate where Vox wound up.

--Togas

	31-12-2002 00:55									#192
	Suffering from ads?

Because of the lack of comments on my letter I suppose it was adequate...

	31-12-2002 01:00									#193
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Togas, very good idea

	31-12-2002 01:05									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by History Guy Because of the lack of comments on my letter I suppose it was adequate...

History Guy,

Your letters are always more than adequate. You do a supurb job in the representation of your despot.

--Togas

	31-12-2002 01:09									#195
	Got spare money?

History Guy, I love your letters

	31-12-2002 01:11									#196
	Support Apolyton

I thank you, Lord Togas, I am glad I have pleased Milord in doing my duties as well as I could.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	31-12-2002 01:25									#197
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If GS doesn't want our minimap, do they already have it from another civ? Our ambassadors should inquire if our minimap has been traded/given to other civs.

If we give them the GoW minimap, we risk irritating a civ that is closer to us than GS (I assume), and that may be an important ally against ND and/or Lux. The Lux minimap is the only one we can trade with repercussions.

	31-12-2002 01:53									#198
	Got spare money?

I will offer them the location of Lux, indicating that the others are not available per our trade agreements.

Meshalic is out until the 5th. I will try and PM another member of their team, probably DeepO.

GK.

	31-12-2002 01:57									#199
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'd advise against giving GS GoW's minimap. We signed an agreement with GoW not to trade away their minimap (and they not to trade away ours). Just as they stand to loose by breaking agreements with us, we also stand to loose a great deal of diplomatic respect by making such a trade. As such, I'd be strongly against it -- even if we can pull it off, we want to become a force through diplomacy, and breaking an agreement could damage us diplomatically far more than this map would help us.

We may not have signed such an agreement with ND when we aquired theirs, so that would be a little better, but I'd still say pretty bad. As long as we want to be everyone's friend, we'd be pushing our luck to start breaking agreements now.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Giving them lux's location is the best option of all. If they're not that friendly in the first place, we might not loose that much. If it were put to a poll, I'd still have to vote no, but if we're making this trade with someone's map, compared to the alternatives, I'm all for it .

	31-12-2002 02:02									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes, I agree we can send them the minimap of Lux, but lets offer it to them as an "X" marks the spot thing and not the actual minimap. Tell them we risk breaking some kind of agreement with the other civ if we give them the actual minimap, but hold out for their minimap.

Just a thought.

	31-12-2002 02:05									#201
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I will not offer the mini-map. Only their location as we did not aquire it from a trade with them. You are correct ada - we must be above reproach with our diplomicy.

	31-12-2002 02:07									#202
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Another interesting thought on the topic of the Alphabet trade .... if we are not on the same continent with Lego, we have a monopoly to trade this mystery to ND, Lux, GW and perhaps VC or GS if they are on our continent.

I think we need to maybe make some kind of coordinated effort to make sure we do not trade it to one before we can get the best trades with the others...i.e. maximize profits on the darn thing.

	31-12-2002 02:50									#203
	Get a bigger avatar today!

GodKing -- Sounds good . I think we're ok if we give them lux's location and if it doesn't become public knowledge -- we haven't made any agreements with Lux, and I'm guessing they're heading towards being a rather unpopular team if they're giving everyone else the same diplomatic treatment that we're recieving. (Sorry jdjdjd ).

jdjdjd -- I've been thinking about that a bit myself. We should def. hang on to alphabet and try to make the max profit out of it, but considering the very turnbased nature of diplomacy in PTW, how do we stop one team from getting it before the others? (Whoever plays after us) I don't know PTW at all, so perhaps there's an easy way -- get everyone to offer us the deal so we can accept them all at once, perhaps? Anyway, I'll leave that question up to the people who know how PTW works .

-- adaMada

	31-12-2002 03:19									#204
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Jason (Ghengis Farb) of GoW sends me short messages with each save. He sent a much longer one to me on Friday which I did not respond to until today:

quote: Those Germans and their blasted Scouts have already gotten over 12 techs, their way ahead of us and I would assume quite ahead of your team also. We've got coast to our west which would put Lux to their east (your north) or your west(Demogyptia's south). We should seriously consider a tech embargo against them or they will be the dominant civ in our area for quite some time to come. We have several horse resources near us so we should be able to field some chariots soon. If your team researched a tech other than The Wheel we may be able to swap 3 techs for 3 techs.

And my response:

quote: Just got back from my vacation last night. Things are certainly getting interesting. I have told adaMada to send your people an urgent message about meeting up. We need to meet up soon as our nation has met ND and they are making a very good offer for Alphabet. I'd prefer not to enrich them any more than I have to. Are you guys pinned into a corner? Do you have more land to your west? We're situated on the south-eastern corner of the map and still trying to get a better idea of what is north and what is west of us, but we've found ND in the process of heading towards you guys. Anyhow, we'll stall negotiations with ND for a few turns but not too long. Have your ambassador get back to ada ASAP and send someone south along the western coastline to meet up with our warrior who will be headed north. Also note: We have researched Bronze. If you don't have that, we could have a very profitable 3 for 3 trade ... assuming, of course, we don't give in and trade with someone else.

--Togas

	31-12-2002 03:42									#205
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

EDIT: Nevermind

Togas,
I have indeed contacted Panzer, as shown above, and that message seems to imply that Ghengis would look favorably upon meeting in the middle. Considering that Panzer suggested this once as well, it's rather good news overall. Having said that, I've some bad news -- Panzer hasn't logged on in three days. Considering the season, he may be out of contact. I'm going to check the main forum now for any message about him leaving, but if he doesn't get back to us soon enough, it might be prudent to see if Ghengis is willing to circumvent the normal diplomatic process, and perhaps just directly agree on the issue. Though we want to encourage official communication through official channels, this might be an issue we don't want to wait on.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Panzer JUST logged on. Nevermind .

	31-12-2002 03:47									#206
	Panzer's Reply Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Thank you for your message. I will try and convince Ghengis Farb to send a warrior towards your territory. Unfortunatly, We will have to discuss a new possible tech deal because we have aquired ceremonial burial. I hope we can get together a good deal soon, which I hope will encourage friendship between our two great nations. I also hope that we can include a nonagression pact within a future deal so we can live together peacefully. Thank you.

My thoughts:
Warrior Code for Alphabet is basically even. Getting Masonry is trickier, and perhaps I shouldn't have pushed for rejection of that ND deal. I'd still like to keep Alphabet close to our chest, but I wonder if we couldn't effectively get ND and GoW into a bidding war by telling them we would go with the lowest bidder (in gold) on Masonry. History Guy can blame this on some faction of our team should he desire, and I will blame it on the anti-GoW faction I invented when diplomacy opened. Having said that, I'm not sure forcing them into a bidding war will help our relationship with either team, which would be a bad thing in general. Perhaps it would be better to see if we couldn't get GoW to agree to throwing in a bit of cash for Masonry, on the grounds that we'll be buying it from ND if they don't and that they want a tech embargo/nonagression pact from us.

Our original deal:
* Warrior Code & Masonry <--> Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial
--- Deal will change if either group aquires tech
* Minimap <--> Minimap
--- Cannot be retraded
* 50 turn nonagression pact (starting upon contact)

-- adaMada
EDIT: Added everything after the message itself.

	31-12-2002 04:21									#207
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

New message from Ghengis Farb

quote: Our Warrior has already passed Neu Demo and is heading your direction. We are on the extreme NorthWestern edge of the continent with very little room for cities.

We should come into contact with them very shortly UNLESS they are headed towards the middle of our empire.

--Togas

	31-12-2002 05:37									#208
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Response from Vox C. Dear Nuclear Winter. Hello sir. And Happy Holidays to you and yours. I trust your Christmas Squid was most excellent. I am writing to respond to your recent correspondence. My apoligies for the delay in getting back to you - but with the holidays and everything - well, I'm sure you understand. I have been authorized by the One Voice to respond to you as follows: Regarding the trading of mini-maps - I regret to inform you that Vox Controli does not feel it is within the spirit and intent of the game to trade maps. I understand that your esteemed leader, Togas, has made an empassoned plea to the world at large for such an exchange. We feel that it is acceptable to exchange our understanding of where we are in the world verbally - as we have already done - but that the actual trading of maps will require both our civilizations to master that technology, and for us, or at least our representatives, to meet in person in the world. To this end we are confident that we may meet soon. As previously discussed, Willy the Warrior is headed your way - as far as we can deduce. And you have indicated that you have an explorer headed our way. It can only be a matter of time before our two great nations meet - don't you think? Regarding the question of favored nation status for trading, we of the One Voice think this to be an excellent proposal. We would like to reciprocate this honor, and when we are in a position to discuss trades, we will extend the same benefit to you. Together, we are stronger. Now, regarding the matter of the non-agression pact - well, I will be honest with you - this has generated much debate within our civilization. Please keep this quiet, we of the One Voice are often, how shall I put it, not embarassed, but rather self-conscious about our own internal discussions. As you know, we like to speak with One Voice, as is our law and our custom, and yet occasionally the way of the One Voice and our underpinnings of a free and democratic nation grate on one another. This is one of those times. So, I will need to get back to you on this point - the debate continus at home. Some questions have arisen as to the validity of such a pact in the first place. It may help our debarting process if we knew how you would see this pact working. Is it public to other civs? Does it supercede pacts made within the game? Is it more than just a pledge of friendship, or do you see it stronger than that? No doubt you must have discussed this amongst your people, so if you can share more information, it would be greatly appreciated. And now to the last point. You have asked for a copy of the One Book. You may not fully appreciate the significance of your request; in fact, many of our leading clerics and scholars took your request as a grave insult. It was necessary to bring to their attention that you are infidels ... er.. poor choice of words .. shall we say un-informed regarding the teachings of the One Book. When this was explained to the clergy, they were somewaht appeased. In their life's work, it is difficult to conceive of different faiths and different understandings from that of the One Word. We, as men of the world, must bring that understanding to them, don't you think. (end of part 1 of letter. Part 2 follows.)

	31-12-2002 22:28									#209
	Re: Panzer's Reply Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Our original deal: * Warrior Code & Masonry <--> Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial --- Deal will change if either group aquires tech * Minimap <--> Minimap --- Cannot be retraded * 50 turn nonagression pact (starting upon contact) -- adaMada

I would think trading with GW would be preferable because (1) they are farther away and pose less a threat to us and more a threat to ND and Lux, (2) we have a 50 turn non-agression pact with them and I imagine that honoring that is a priority for them, and (3) we need to be working to catch up with ND's tech lead not padding it.

	01-01-2003 01:56									#210
	Re: Re: Panzer's Reply Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Thrumble I would think trading with GW would be preferable because (1) they are farther away and pose less a threat to us and more a threat to ND and Lux, (2) we have a 50 turn non-agression pact with them and I imagine that honoring that is a priority for them, and (3) we need to be working to catch up with ND's tech lead not padding it.

I agree that we should at least wait and see what GoW can offer. On the nonagression pact, I'm not sure if it is still valid (considering that part of the deal was nulled), but Panzer already reiterated their interest, and I suspect we can get one when we ask. (In fact, I bet we could get one now if we asked at no charge, though that's just a hunch -- I'm betting they want to focus on ND and Lux rather than us, and (as such) any agreements that allow them to narrow their focus will be welcome).

-- adaMada