01-01-2003 02:06									#211
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Gow aquired C.B. from another source. We aquired Masonry from another source. We can (and should) still trade GoW Alphabet and Bronze for W.C. and Wheel ... but we need to set the deal up before ND does.

adaMada -- contact Gow and tell them that we will trade 2 for 2 as above. Tell them to NOT TRADE WITH ND, as our warrior is "in the jungle by the west coast heading north" and will meet their warrior very soon.

Tell them that the Pro-ND forces in our government pushed the trade through for Masonry but that Togas still want to trade with them as above, and that they probably don't want to give ND any additional military techs as they're already far too dangerous a neighbor.

--Togas

	01-01-2003 05:00									#212
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Understood My Lord.

I have dispatched the following message to GoW's Ambassador Panzer:

quote: Panzer, I'm sorry to report that Pro-ND forces in my government have forced through a deal where we acquire masonry from them. Having said that, Togas has asked me to inform you that he's still very interested in a trade. We'd propose the same basic deal as before: nonagression pact for fifty turns after we meet and two for two tech exchange, with the tech exchange changed to Alphabet and Bronze Working from us for the Wheel and Warrior Code from you. I urge you to accept this deal and wait for us to meet (which should be very soon, as I am told our advance scouts grow closer with each passing day), as I believe it's in both of our best interests to avoid strengthening Neu Dem's tech lead much more. Though some of the members of my government are foolish in this regard, we should still try to trade with each other where we can rather than helping Neu Dem, who is a major danger to the both of us. Please let me know what your government thinks of the proposal. -- adaMada Togas' Ambassador to Glory of War

	01-01-2003 07:18									#213
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Pro-Neu Demogyptican forces? Hmmm...they must be a hideous sight to behold!

	01-01-2003 11:35									#214
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Panzer's response:

quote: I would accept this deal, but it may be a few turns before we discover the wheel. I think we would have to leave it to alphabet for Warrior code for the immediate future.

Very late my time, and don't really have time to be here right now -- will post my thoughts in the morning if a decision on what response to send hasn't been made by then.

-- adaMada

	01-01-2003 11:56									#215
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Hopefully, the timing of the first meet and their research of The Wheel, coincide.

E_T

	02-01-2003 05:57									#216
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I just got another PM from Panzer. Apparently he was mistaken, and they do have the wheel. I've asked him if he'll accept the 2-2 trade, which I think he will -- he implied he would in his previous message, so...

-- adaMada

	02-01-2003 06:01									#217
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Well, this will now depend on what Lux offers us for Alphabet, as we just met them and put it on the table.

	02-01-2003 06:19									#218
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Please let me know if I should make any contact with the Admiral at Lux re: the Alphabet. Or are we just going to see what they counter with?

	02-01-2003 06:25									#219
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd Please let me know if I should make any contact with the Admiral at Lux re: the Alphabet. Or are we just going to see what they counter with?

Yes, jdjdjd, please do so. Togas mentioned in the chat that he'd get you to PM them about it immediately, so if he hasn't already PM'd you to do so, you should.

We put Alphabet on the table for consideration and Sent it to them. We're after any starting techs that we haven't already got. Though I'm not sure how that should be stated...have our ambassadors been telling other civs what we have in order to speed along negotiations?

	02-01-2003 09:00									#220
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This is good. Let us hope that Neu Demogyptica's trade of Alphabet does not interfere with our plans with Lux Invicta, and perhaps even the Warmongers. I trust we may be able to get something good out of Lux Invicta, hopefully Warrior Code. This may be well, sirs, very well. The glory of the thane lords.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	02-01-2003 09:00									#221
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Reply from Panzer is in, and the deal with GoW is:

quote: Alphabet and Bronze Working for the Wheel and Warrior Code, with a fifty turn nonagression pact starting the turn that we make contact.

I hope my lord is pleased with the results.

-- adaMada

	02-01-2003 09:07									#222
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This is good news

I find it interesting that they went for horseback riding instead of bronze working. That just underscores their offensive approach to the game. No wonder they are paranoid of their neighbors; they were miles away from spearmen without us. Its a deffiency they would probably want to keep quiet about with their neighbors.

	02-01-2003 09:14									#223
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Though my imperialistic nature says "Hah! Go kill them now!", I must say the deal is very grand. Warrior Code and The Wheel are very nice pieces of technology, and I hear that they both would give us, combined with our knowledge of Bronze Working, the finest mobile army on the face of the planet. We would cover the valleys with our archers, and ride at the enemy in our fast, horse-drawn chariots, and we would defend better than any with our bronze-tipped spears. This is good.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	02-01-2003 09:19									#224
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Good work, adaMada. It may still take a few turns to make contact, but at least we're assured of having all the starting techs shortly.

With this news, I would strongly advise against trading Alphabet to Lux for anything GoW is going to give us - we don't want further upset them by changing the trade a second time. If Lux can give us enough cash - fine (to prevent either ND or GoW from profiting from it), otherwise we'll simply say that we've already acquired whatever techs they offer.

	02-01-2003 11:35									#225
	Lux Invicta Report Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I had a long talk with the leader of Lux Invicta, Trip. After our two warriors exchanged greetings, I was able to sit down with their leader and, after a short bit of waffling and secrecy, he opened up and revealed quite a bit to me.

They are along a similar vein as Trip's old "Imperealist Party" from the Civ3 Demo game. They are democractic, have a leader, some formal positions, vote on things, but matters are handled informally and Trip makes most of the decisions (or skews them with his polls). They have 3 week terms of office, but it's 5 weeks now and they haven't done another election.

They met ND first, traded techs with them, and then made a territory/expansion agreement which ND backed out of at the last minute (after demanding that they expell their warrior/scout from ND territory). As a result, they don't trust ND and think of them as deal breakers.

They report that ND is surrounded by jungle and dessert and needs better land, and is expanding quickly.

They have also meet GoW, but have little to say other than they want to keep GoW neutral.

They are on the north-eastern corner of the map and are exploring south and west.

They have Iron Working and are working on other military techs. They also have Pottery, Masonry, Bronze, and Wheel.

They would like to coodinate research, trade us their war techs for Writing, etc.

Trip proposed an alliance/mutual defense pact. I agreed that it would be a good idea and proposed that we begin discussing it in more details as well as a research pact of some sort. We discussed this for a while, talking about how good it would be for us to cooperate in war and peace. I proposed we split the continent: they get north, we get south. Trip seemed very much in favor of such an arrangement.

All in all, the conversation went well. I chummed it up about old times in the Civ3 Demo Game and being a former member of Trip's Imperialist Party, we chatted about that a bit. I told a few despot stories and he talked about how lax his people were with their Constitution, but still felt it was good to have it just in case. He teased about taking full power over his team, and I offered to give him tips on how to run a despotism if he decided to go that direction.

He wants to go Monarchy. I told him I also wanted to go there. We agreed we'd probably split up the tech tree so that Spain did the writing & religion tree and they did the war and construction tree.

All in all, they are still somewhat stuck up and very certain of their manifest destiny, but they are now willing to talk and work together with us, especially since we are not a direct competator with them in either tech or land, and also since they have a festering rivalry brewing with ND.

I notified Trip that jdjdjd was our ambassador to them, he said their guy wasn't very active and he'd either appoint someone new or do the job himself.

--Togas

	02-01-2003 11:36									#226
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One more thing: They didn't seem too interested in Alphabet or Ceremonial burial, but he said he'd poll his people and get back to us on what they'd like to trade. Ultimately, I want to get Iron Working from them.

--Togas

	02-01-2003 12:00									#227
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Sidenote:

After gabbing with Trip about inactivity and how it's plaguing both of our teams (which isn't true, I was mostly just emphasizing with him ) I said I would whip five of my inactive citizens in honor of Trip and Lux Invicti's friendship to Spain.

If it comes up, feel free to discuss this in public with other people so that it gets back to Trip. His ego will get a kick out of that.

You may also want to pick names of people who were publicly whipped or volunteer and say that you were on the end of a good beating ... and you don't really know what inspired Togas to do so.

--Togas

	02-01-2003 12:36									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Togas After gabbing with Trip about inactivity and how it's plaguing both of our teams (which isn't true, I was mostly just emphasizing with him ) I said I would whip five of my inactive citizens in honor of Trip and Lux Invicti's friendship to Spain.

Yes, I have been quite pleased with the team participation to date. Everyone should give themselves a pat on the back!

However, if we have to identify the five least active members recently, I think they would be:
MrWhereItsAt
Thud
F-PRO
Ninot
mrmitchell

I'm excusing Luk and Lord_Davinator, who both joined recently I believe.

	02-01-2003 12:38									#229
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Why wasn't I mentioned?

	02-01-2003 12:40									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Togas One more thing: They didn't seem too interested in Alphabet or Ceremonial burial, but he said he'd poll his people and get back to us on what they'd like to trade. Ultimately, I want to get Iron Working from them.

Well, they're not going to get to Monarchy very quickly without them.

Is a Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial for Iron Working trade realistic? Maybe we'd have to wait until we get Warrior Code from GoW and make it Alphabet and Warrior Code...

	02-01-2003 12:42									#231
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Why wasn't I mentioned?

Because even the Most Trusted Advisor knows better than to anger the High Priest!

	02-01-2003 13:31									#232
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Good, good. I'm glad to see that I am respected even in my absence...

	02-01-2003 17:53									#233
	Re: Lux Invicta Report Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Togas They have Iron Working and are working on other military techs. They also have Pottery, Masonry, Bronze, and Wheel.

They must have Ceremonial Burial too, because it didn't show up in our 'offers' list in the diplomacy screen.

	02-01-2003 18:22									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Crousto They must have Ceremonial Burial too, because it didn't show up in our 'offers' list in the diplomacy screen.

I believe the trading works differently than against AI civs. We cannot see what techs they have at all - they have to put them on the table.

	02-01-2003 19:29									#235
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Is anyone keeping up with the mutual defense pacts we have? I would prefer not to have a conflict of interests in the event that the north disintegrates into war.

	02-01-2003 19:43									#236
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quote: Originally posted by dejon I believe the trading works differently than against AI civs. We cannot see what techs they have at all - they have to put them on the table.

We can't see their list at all (left of the screen), but we can't see in our list (right of the screen) something that they already own. We couldn't see Ceremonial Burial in our list, so they must own it.

	02-01-2003 19:53									#237
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I am proud of our diplomat team .

Things are going better than I'd expected. Well done guys !!!

	02-01-2003 20:14									#238
	Re: Lux Invicta Report Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Crousto We can't see their list at all (left of the screen), but we can't see in our list (right of the screen) something that they already own. We couldn't see Ceremonial Burial in our list, so they must own it.

I see what you mean now. Yes, you are quite right.

	02-01-2003 20:44									#239
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I sent my email to Admiral PJ, but now see that Trip may appoint someone else.

I copied Togas, Ominipotent Grand And Supreme (TOGAS for short)with the PM. It was short to Lux and just advised we are offering Alphabet.

I will await instructions if I should just go to Trip.

They down play Alphabet - maybe they know ND has it- or perhaps they are just using as a negotiating ploy. Lets not take anything Trip says too seriously - he can BS with the best of them.

Based on Crousto's excellent table of techs, we only have Alphabet over Lux, and they have Iron Working. Thanks to great work by ada, et als, we will have Warrior Code soon too.

Now, please, someone begin the whipping. I ask mrmitchell be spared as he is working in my offices as deputy and it may be too embarrassing to have him whipped in front of the Ottomans whom he must work with day in and day out.

	02-01-2003 20:46									#240
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Be careful with that MPP. If it comes to war we shouldn't attack the same turn as the other team does, but wait. Other teams than the team we're allied with may not know of the pact at any costs. I believe it is good for our safety to have one with a strong team we can trust. However never trust an enemy. The tech agreements seem very risky to me. How can we trust that Trip keeps his promise? Second: what if Trip makes a trade agreement with another team like ND. He may not trust them by now, but we cannot look in the future. If Trip trades with another team just as he trades with us (same division of techtrees for instance) He can get all techs of two teams (we're one of the two) and we and the other team gain each but half of his. If my explanation is not clear to anybody, please post a comment. Of course we could also chat about it. This is very important!!!
If we make techdeals, I suggest we should make them for a maximum of four techs to be reseached by us. By that way we can check by time if Trip isn't betraying us. We should also demand a tech-trade embargo against the other teams for the techs we have agreed to research seperately and trade to each other.
I'd like to hear some comments on this.

Aidun Cian