11-12-2002 07:06									#61
	Got spare money?

The pop point aspect is important early, but once a city gets maxed out in size and has the food to grow again, losing a pop point is essentially irrelevant. Of course you do also lose a shield or two for one turn before the city gets back up to size, and there's probably some wastage since the city won't generate exactly ten shields.

Nathan

	11-12-2002 07:55									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We'll see if we have a use for it once we see more of the map. Good to hear some opinions, though.

-Arrian

	11-12-2002 15:08									#63
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah, it was the loss of the pop-point that I was thinking was the big disadvantage.
By the time the loss of a pop-point wasn't a big deal I would have thought that the few uses for Outposts would no longer have much relevance.

	13-12-2002 00:33									#64
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I was just thinking about Theseus' desire to get a couple of WCs built ASAP and something occurred to me: to the extent that we do this, and want to use them as barb killers to try and promote them as well as gain cash, we should probably be careful to keep them away from other civs - for 2 reasons:

1) unless they establish an embassy or scout us pretty well, they won't *know* if we have horses unit they see a WC
2) though I doubt any of them are this stupid, somebody could hit one to try and waste our GA (which would be used to kill them, I know. Like I said, I doubt anyone is that dumb, but...)

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 05:54									#65
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1) Other teams will assume horses and WCs are a priority for us.

2) Whether as regarding barbs or other teams, early WCs need end turns on hills / mountains as much as possible.

	14-12-2002 06:13									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree with our General's. Keeping our war chariots private (so they misjudge our military strength) is a very good idea, and making sure they end on hills is a wise choice as well.

(not sure, but I thought WC's couldn't cross mountains??)

	14-12-2002 07:22									#67
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, hills only unless there is a road.

Theseus, honestly I think it will be some time before we are in a position to start pumping out war chariots. I agree they are VERY important to us, though.

I would like to keep them relatively secret if that doesn't hamper us in any other way. Clearly, if we still have exploring to do by the time we have WCs, they are a 2 move unit and thus provide an advantage in that area. Otherwise, I'd like to keep 'em quiet.

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 07:27									#68
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Sorry to be blunt, but if I were a member of another team trying to guess what Gathering Storm was doing in their early-game, I'd pretty much assume their hoarding War Chariots (whether I see them or not). The key is not that the other teams know we have WCs, it's whether or not they know where we plan to use them (if at all).


Dominae

	14-12-2002 07:29									#69
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Ok, good point. But can the other teams ASSUME we have horses?

-Arrian

	14-12-2002 07:30									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ok, good point. But can the other teams ASSUME we have horses?

Unless they're Expansionsist, I don't think it would be wise for them to assume we don't have Horses. This is really where our reputation for being the favorite comes in: other teams are going to expect the worst.


Dominae

	31-12-2002 13:28									#71
	Tired of ads?

Go, stranger, and to Lacedaemon tell
That here, obeying her behests, we fell.

Super bump. Hello?

	31-12-2002 19:09									#72
	Got spare money?

I was wondering why you bumped this thread until I read Turn 20.

== RED ALERT!! PERSIANS SIGHTED IN THE NORTH ==

I hate Immortals. I hate 'em.

Ok, at this point I say we ditch any hopes of wonderbuilding, concentrate first and foremost on REXing, then on barracks building and WC construction.

We may, though I'm not sure, need a road through the northern jungle prior to attacking. Something to keep in mind (dunno if the jungle stretches coast to coast). Perhaps getting a town up in the northern jungle is now a priority?

Nathan mentioned that BW is not a priority as spearmen won't do much better than warriors if defending vs. Immortals. This is true. Then again, it's on the way to IW. Perhaps we can trade for it.

So I say: pottery next, then Monarchy beeline. Cities, cities, cities, barracks, barracks, barracks, WC's, WC's, WC's, kill kill kill.

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 19:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Cities, cities, cities, barracks, barracks, barracks, WC's, WC's, WC's, kill kill kill.

Now this is what I call a detailed plan!

I'm not sure if I agree on the wonderbuilding, though... I think that if we set aside one city for the GL (library that is, lighthouse seemed to have lost its appeal), we can still outproduce Vox. Otherwise, we should aim to get a leader, and this is a bit too risky for me.

DeepO

	31-12-2002 20:50									#74
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

So I guess we're not trying for a "diplomatic" solution to our nearest neighbor "problem"? Either way, I'm happy...nah, I prefer warmongering.




Dominae

	31-12-2002 21:07									#75
	Suffering from ads?

Well... we can be diplomatic as long as it suits us. I wouldn't start off on a warring tone, besides we're long from finished building up troops to go and conquer them. Keep them happy, and unsuspecting, I'd say

DeepO

	31-12-2002 21:58									#76
	Got spare money?

Oh definitely: we play nice until we're ready (if possible).

My main concern right now is the size of the jungle. Jungle is bad for us (more specifically, for our WCs).

If I'm in Vox's shoes, and I have GS to my south and either Demo or Roleplay on the other side (assuming their knowledge of Cem Burial is via trade with one of those civs), I would right now be advocating an Immortal stike on us via warrior upgrade. During the GA, I would build either lots more immortals or a horseman force, and once we're finished, hit the other neighbor.

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 22:01									#77
	Suffering from ads?

How can we find out when Vox get Iron Working? I don't think the trade screen will tell us in MP. Or will it?

	31-12-2002 22:06									#78
	Put an end to popups!

If Arrian is right about Vox's Immortal strike, perhaps our WCs will be put to a good use after all, in a defensive rather than offensive role. Nothing stops an Immortal rush better than Horsemen.


Dominae

	31-12-2002 22:10									#79
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm just stating what I would do. I don't know what they will do.

But having a neighbor with such a powerful offensive UU rachets up my STCOMOM ("Scares-the-crap-outta-me-o-meter"), and the nasty voices in my head start telling me to kill them before they kill me.

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 23:00									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'll tell you what's got my STCOMOM flashing red... that mountain range is like a f-cking arrow pointed at our heart!!!

We'll need at least two Spearmen (if not Swords) to protect the two tiles where it bottlenecks.

	31-12-2002 23:16									#81
	Got spare money?

Here's an idea for a possible game plan assuming the jungles don't look like an insurmountable obstacle:

(1) Get Pottery and turn EotS into an all-out settler/worker pump. That city gets used for nothing else until we finish REXing, at which time it becomes our main production center. In my experimenting last night, I was surprised to find that there was still time to get Pottery after The Wheel and build a granary before our first settler, which gets us in settler pump mode a lot more quickly and pays major dividends down the road.

(2) All other cities build a barracks and start pumping out war chariots (assuming we have horses) and only participate in the REXing process in that they build a settler or worker when they get up around size 5 or 6 (threatening to cause happiness problems and/or stop growing). Most of our cities will be founded directly from EotS, but with that city churning out settlers in five turns and workers in two, the time involved will still be reasonable.

(3) After Pottery, beeline for Monarchy. That way even though we and Persia can probably both expect GAs when our forces clash, our GA should be worth significantly more than theirs. (Another possibility would be to trade them Monarchy and declare war the moment the deal is completed, perhaps trapping them into at least a couple turns of anarchy just as we strike .)

(4) Keep relations peaceful and positive while we're building up our forces, with tech trades wherever they seem useful.

(5) When we're ready to strike, see if we can enlist help from one or more other of Persia's neighbors, assuming they have any.

It needs tested, but I think this approach would work quite well if the jungles aren't too hard to deal with. (It's pretty much within the range of strategies I use in SP.)

I wish this plan had room for us to build a wonder or two, but with Persia having such a potent ancient UU and the GA potential that comes with it, I think extra WCs are more important.

Nathan

	31-12-2002 23:20									#82
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing re: them marching Immortals down our mountain ranges.

I really think we need a city up there around where contact has been made ASAP. Build orders would be barracks (poprush assisted) & walls, and every so often a poprushed spearman or WC. We get a road through the jungle, and then keep a worker or two there to cut down the jungle immediately surrounding our fortress town so that if we do have to kill invading immortals, we will be hitting them with WCs on flat, open terrain. Jungle provides a 50% defensive bonus, IIRC.

-Arrian, who is probably thinking way ahead and/or overreacting.

	31-12-2002 23:23									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with Nathan re: pottery and settler pumping, by the way.

Anyway, until we are ready to attack them, I want to set up SOME sort of barrier in the jungle to prevent them getting past and marching immortals around on our mountains. We will have to watch Galley end-arounds too. Dropping 2 immorts from a galley behind our lines could be devastating.

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 23:37									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

IIRC jungle defense is 25% (could certainly be wrong)

I really don't like the idea of the GA vs. GA war. It would be nice if they got in a fight with someone else, but I suppose we are a likely target.

The plans so far should good, but nothing that really sets my heart to rest. If they have iron and really have their hearts set on us, we should be worried. Do you think it would be possible to "look mean" (carry a big stick) and thus redirect their wrath to another civ?

I definitely agree with putting up some sort of barrier, it won't stop them but it would be a small buffer, and let us know when their coming.

	01-01-2003 00:16									#85
	Increase Your PM Length

I wouldn't be shocked if the idea of starting a GA vs. GA war scares Vox at least as much as it does us. It certainly ought to, and doubly so considering who they would be going up against.

I don't like the idea of wasting an early settler building a totally corrupt city in the far north. Productive core cities are simply too valuable, and a totally corrupt city can't build enough quickly enough to do us much good anyhow. If we really want a guardian city up north, I think the better course would be to build it later and import its units from the core so all it has to build itself are walls. (Then it could build a rush-assisted temple to provide some cultural depth, and then workers to start clearing jungles.) In any case, if we focus our early growth in the south, it will be a while before we have much Persia could attack without coming down from the mountains first.

By the way, a variant of the strategy I mentioned earlier would be to build a granary and temple in #3 so we have two settler pumps instead of one. (The temple would be to control happiness problems with less need for the luxury slider.) We'd still have #2 to bolster our forces early, and in the long term, getting more cities settled faster could be useful. We need to test both variants.

Nathan

	01-01-2003 00:29									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just had a brilliant (I hope) idea for how to defend the border. If we can build a "road of death" in between mountain ranges to mark our claimed border, we can jump any Persian units that dare to tresspass on that road with war chariots. Given the likely width of the continent where we'd build it, the road would probably be anchored by a city on each end (at least eventually), but we'd road north of the cities so we can hit units as they approach. Eventually, the road would be cleared down to grassland to improve our combat odds.

Nathan

	01-01-2003 06:49									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: I wouldn't be shocked if the idea of starting a GA vs. GA war scares Vox at least as much as it does us. It certainly ought to, and doubly so considering who they would be going up against.

Exactly!!
My guess is, there more scared of us, then we are of them.

So, let's not over react, for them to 'come and get us', franckly, I don't see it happen.
How many tiles would they have to cross, while in the mean time have to build immortals (40-50shields?), and to have acces to iron btw.
ATM we probably have more cities(soon), no one to worry about down south, I say, we are in the command position compared to them.

	01-01-2003 07:05									#88
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Immortals are 30 shields, same as conventional swordsmen, so at equal production, we can outnumber their immortals with WCs three to two. (Not that they'll have equal production if our economic experts can help it.) Of course if they're smart, they'll cover their immortals using spearmen, but we'd still have a clear numerical advantage. (Assuming, of course, we have horses. Want to bet what they're hoping for just as much as we hope they don't have iron?)

Nathan

	01-01-2003 07:24									#89
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Are they that cheap..!! hmm, nice unit

Im' pretty sure NOONE will be eager to take us on, one on one...
But, you are right, if we don't have any horses, auch
Then again, we could still bluff our way out, me thinks

	01-01-2003 07:30									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I hate to repeat myself, but: Immortals trump War Chariots in Jungles and Mountains. We need to consider this very seriously in every military (or diplomatic) decision we make.


Dominae