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Dominae
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Hm, nice debate raging here! Theseus, nice to have you back among the active members of Gathering Storm (coming back with a military bang, no less!). Currently, I'm on the fence, but I hope to share some wisdom:
1. Can we give peace a chance, at least for a couple of turns? We're screaming for blood; the Voxians may be willing to talk. They've got an advantage, to be sure, be let us not get too angry because things are momentarily not going our way. Since we need to produce some more Warriors anyway, our economy should not suffer from deferring judgement on battle.
2. Warrior Code is definitely debatable. On the one hand we win our short-term skirmish with the Voxians, and set ourselves up for Monarchy in case the fighting continues. On the other hand, we could very be researching at tech we might not in fact need for quite a while (Horseback Riding, bah!). I personally vote against.
3. I believe we can put up a strong front, yet willing to be diplomatic. I have no problem being "made a fool of", as long as we come out on top. Playing a Deity teaches this lesson (and we're way beyond Deity here!).
4. Perhaps we should seriously sending our second or third hard-built Settler on a long trek up to the isthmus (or near to it). With a pop-rushed Temple and nearly all our defensive forces, we could hold that area until we decide to strike. The only problem is, of course, the long transit time. Perhaps we could think of our bonus Settler as being the one that "went North to fend off Vox", even though this is not in fact true.
5. Once we repel the 2 offending Warriors (with Warriors of our own, I suggest), we will feel a lot better. So they control the isthmus, we've got an economic engine and land aplenty. The only real problem is trades with the unknown third-party. Maybe they will not trade techs after all, and if they do, we're really only afraid of Immortals (and Monarchy) until a while from now.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 05-01-2003 at 10:51
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
How about trying to bring in some neutral (respected) third party. Catt for example?
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I like it. But we need Catt to come online and make a decision within the next couple days...it just might not happen.
quote:
Originally posted by alva
One of the reasons, I think Vox is set on exploring our territory(anything below Neck) is that their land is (much?)smaller then what we claim.
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Right on. Maybe their third or fourth city will end up across the isthmus. Nothing we could do about that, so no reason to get angry.
quote:
Originally posted by alva
I still stand firm on that the warriors must leave. Even if this means a brief skirmish.
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Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by alva
This could give us a way to blow their GA is despotism btw. I 'd rather would have had they would use it fighting someone else.
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By the time we're fighting Immortals, we'll have War Chariots. We'll lead them into our lands (below the jungle) and destroy. *** for tat, GA for GA. A waste, IMO.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Extra warriors?
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Yes!
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Warrior code?
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No!
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
If 3-4 Immortals would show up right now at the isthmus, we'd be in serious trouble. And they probably already have iron working. |
Realistically, by the time 3-4 Immortals show up at the isthmus (forget anywhere close to our cities), we should have Horses hooked up and at least 3/2 as many War Chariots. This should provide adequate defense for our homeland. Regarding controlling the isthmus, we have to get used to the fact that we have no good way of controlling it right now. The best is Archers, and that's pretty weak, if you ask me. In any case, controlling the isthmus will prove exceedingly difficult if 3-4 Immortals show up. Time to find alternative courses of action.
If war breaks out, I say deal with their 2 Warriors using our own, stay calm, keep REXing and hook up Horses with our fourth city (in that order). The isthmus will have to wait. The only good way of dealing with the isthmus at this point is to ask them to move aside.
Dominae
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Yes!
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According to Nathan, no. It would hurt our growth.
quote:
Realistically, by the time 3-4 Immortals show up at the isthmus (forget anywhere close to our cities), we should have Horses hooked up and at least 3/2 as many War Chariots. This should provide adequate defense for our homeland. |
We got a settler from a hut. They could have got iron working from one. If that happened early (maybe even in turn 1) and they set their research to 0%, all they'd need is a barracks in the 2nd city, built on iron. Yea, ineffecient, but efficient or not, this way they could surprise us with a couple of upgraded Immortals very soon. And to get a tech from the first hut is nothing that happens too seldom.
quote:
Regarding controlling the isthmus, we have to get used to the fact that we have no good way of controlling it right now. |
They can have it. They discovered it first, so be it. What buggers me, are their scouts.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
We got a settler from a hut. They could have got iron working from one. If that happened early (maybe even in turn 1) and they set their research to 0%, all they'd need is a barracks in the 2nd city, built on iron. Yea, ineffecient, but efficient or not, this way they could surprise us with a couple of upgraded Immortals very soon. And to get a tech from the first hut is nothing that happens too seldom.
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I suppose that is a possibility, but highly unlikely. We cannot afford to prepare for every nightmare scenario. I'm going to bet they have 3 Warriors, Ceremonial Burial and are completing a second city. If they do show up with 2 Immortals ASAP (say, 20-25 turns from now), we still have enough time to muster War Chariots (heck, we can pop-rush the suckers!). Just because they're being obstinate does not mean they're powerful.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
They can have it. They discovered it first, so be it. What buggers me, are their scouts. |
My thoughts exactly. I'm prepared to attack them over those scouts, if diplomacy fails. We'll manage to repulse their 2 Warriors, and we'll be on guard while we continue REXing. Really, there is no need for a wartime economy; we're just fighting a skirmish here.
Dominae
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Dominae
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Sir Ralph, check out Nathan's revised message proposal to Vox (in the Vox Diplo thread). It might do the trick without any bloodshed. However, we would still have to live with Warriors in "our" land, since we're only asking to cross the isthmus (a fair trade, IMO, which actually favors us if they've contacted anyone else).
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
We have yet to survive to get a benefit from that "long term advantage". So far I see you block any attempt to build up a military. Extra warriors? No! Warrior code? No! We are astoundingly weak, our defense is thin, just like we're playing the AI. If 3-4 Immortals would show up right now at the isthmus, we'd be in serious trouble. And they probably already have iron working. |
Even one immortal showing up at the isthmus right now is a technical impossibility. There are only two ways to build immortals: build them from scratch or upgrade warriors in a city with a barracks. There is no way they could have built three warriors, a settler, and a barracks in their capital in 20 turns. And they haven't had time to build an immortal from scratch, even if their capital just happened to be on a hill with iron.
Right now we have two enemy warriors in our territory, and any other forces that might try to hit us (even if they have anything they can spare from garrison duty) are at least 16 turns away. So I see no reason to panic.
With diplomacy appearing to be failing, I am happy to support plans to build additional warriors quickly in Hurricane, where the impact of stunting growth is relatively small. What I truly dislike is compromising the efficiency of our settler pump, because the long-term economic cost of that is far higher.
On further reflection, my reaction to Warrior Code may be biased a bit by the fact that I'm so used to playing SP. Against AIs, Warrior Code might about as well not be part of the path to Monarchy because in any situation where a player wants Monarchy, he can almost certainly trade for it. But on further reflection, we may be stuck researching Warrior Code ourselves on the way to Monarchy, in which case doing it now rather than later might not be as bad an idea as I first thought. On the other hand, once Grog gets on the hill, there should be at least one tile another civ could reach where the units could see each other and establish contact, so I'm not quite ready to give up on the possibility of trading for Warrior Code. (That's especially true if whoever Vox made contact with would like for us to guide them in.)
My response to a suggestion to research Bronze Working and Iron Working would be a lot more positive (now that diplomacy is going so badly). Iron Working would give us units that could take on immortals with a much better prospect of success. But I haven't sorted out the various factors including possible trades and the desire for Monarchy enough to feel ready to make a specific proposal yet.
We do need to keep track of how much military power Vox might reasonably be expected to have (and of their position on the power graph) and be prepared so that if they come at us with immortals, we can come up with an adequate force to meet them by the time they arrive. But we also need to make good use of how much advance warning we'll get to help us grow our economy more for sustained long-term power.
Nathan
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
We got a settler from a hut. They could have got iron working from one. If that happened early (maybe even in turn 1) and they set their research to 0%, all they'd need is a barracks in the 2nd city, built on iron. Yea, ineffecient, but efficient or not, this way they could surprise us with a couple of upgraded Immortals very soon. And to get a tech from the first hut is nothing that happens too seldom. |
Civ 3 huts aren't random like they are in Call to Power. They give the lowest-cost tech (or one of them) that you (1) have the prerequisites for, (2) don't have yet, and (3) aren't researching. (At least that's what I've heard, and I haven't seen anything since I heard it, admittedly not too long ago, that would contradict the idea. Has anyone else run into a verified counterexample?) Vox's having gotten Iron Working from a hut may not be quite theoretically impossible, but it's close.
I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of having a couple immortals show up just a few turns after they have time to build a barracks, though.
Nathan
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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Nathan, AFAIK you're right on getting techs from huts. They can have gotten ceremonial burial from it, which is the 2nd tech in line after pottery in my experience. So either they received pottery too (this should be known to us in a few turns), or they were researching it. Otherwise, they traded it from a third party. There is no way they could have gotten IW, as the wheel and alphabet would come before it. It is beyond reason they have gotten 4 techs from huts...
Again, they are either very close to IW, or have just discovered it last turn with normal commerce, I thought that calculation was generally agreed upon. And, this would mean they started researching it from 4000 BC (but this is possible). I think they settled their second city before knowing where, and if they had access to iron. They could be lucky, but more likely they do not have iron within their borders already.
So, in the end, they do not have any immortals now, and will probably reach the Neck with 1 immortal in 10 turns at the fastest (with forestchopping). By that time we can have 3 warriors there.
Further, the neck is theirs, in my mind, they were the first to cross it, they are obviously closer (Grog lost very few turns in reaching it), and we can't seriously attack it at this stage. We could block it so they can't put a city down there, and we should foresee this possibility as it will seriously enhance their defense (set a city on that hill, and all our troops need to crush it before being able to flow in their land).
Other things: in future tests, I certainly am going for more warriors, and the fastest possible access to WCs. Archers, however, is something I don't like deviating to. We don't need the tech now, we can't rush them anyhow (too far), and what resources is concerned we would be better off getting a worker to the jungle asap in order to be able to cross it. I don't want to build 1 archer if we have a potent UU we could use.
research: I am more and more inclined to beeline to mapmaking, so these kind of blocking and crossing problems are no issue anymore.
DeepO
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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First off, we don't live in no stinkin' South Estonia!
Vox doesn't know it yet, but they are simply improving Northern Stormland for us!! 
Next, while I still counsel a very aggressive stance re Vox, we have to be ready for a 'defense in depth.'
Here are some thoughts:
Vox' scouts: It seems to me that in the worst case there will be 3 of their scouts wandering around by the time we can close the isthmus. That's not the end of the world. We should have each one shadowed, and where possible our Warriors should stay on mountains.
Key defensive positions: We need to put Warriors onto the mountains 88884 from EotS and 87 from Hurricane ASAP. These will later be replaced by Spearmen. We will also want a Spearmen on the mountain 88 from Hurricane, and finally a Spearmen on the forest 8877777 from EotS.
City placement: As I see it, there are 3 key cities we need to get in place. The first would be as currently planned, on the desert tile 889 from EotS; this will expand our territory in such a way as to seriously interfere with Vox scouting, and later becomes a critical defense point (you'll see). The second should be revised to get us horses ASAP. The third whould then be revised to take advantage of the wheat.
Research: BW, IW, Horseback Riding.
What I want to get toward is the following 'phases' of defense / offense:
1. Warriors in key positions.
2. Spearmen in key defensive positions.
3. WCs for 'point' defense (worst case).
4. Wolfpacks of 2-3 WCs for each of our two major kill zones: north of the desert city and on the grassland SE of Spinebreaker.
5. Swordsmen (a lot of'em) to clear the way moving north.
6. Horsemen to cross the jungle.
A couple of further points:
* This will require a lot of units, and a lot of gold.
* We need to decide how long to try to hold the 2 isthmus tiles.
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05-01-2003 08:13
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