01-01-2003 08:18									#91
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This may be premature, but I very much envision a town 3 tiles directly north of EotS, and a road network that extends 3 tiles north of where the Worker is currently (NW of EotS).

This will get any / most fastmovers coming from south of the river to the grassland 5 tiles north of EotS efficiently.

Pray to the Storm Gods that we aren;t facing an E-W jungle belt.

	01-01-2003 08:30									#92
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Where does this idea of a town three tiles north of EotS come from? It's contrary to anything I remember noticing in the city placement thread.

Nathan

	01-01-2003 22:50									#93
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You seem to eager to start a defensive war, but that, as dominae said, is fighting against the odds. Our terrain dictates that we attack, not defend. Of course, we have to find a way throught the jungle, and Vox would do well to defend this way (if it exists) or any opening we make in the jungle wall. Anyow, our top priority should be scouting their land, and the second would be to block their way, and perhaps make them think are lands are closer than they think.

	01-01-2003 23:58									#94
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quote: Originally posted by zeit You seem to eager to start a defensive war, but that, as dominae said, is fighting against the odds. Our terrain dictates that we attack, not defend.

Actually I think we have the advantage defensively (War Chariots in mostly open terrain), but where are disadvantage offensively (assuming more Jungle in the Voxian lands).


Dominae

	02-01-2003 00:13									#95
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It's not that we want a defensive war so much as that we feel a need to be prepared for one if Vox forces one on us. Actually, once we're ready to fight, there would be significant advantages if Vox starts it because (1) it looks better to the rest of the world and (2) immortals would be much easier to deal with on a suitably prepared killing field outside Vox's borders than within their borders where they get a free shot at our WCs before we can get to their cities. (Not that I wouldn't enjoy it if they instead go for a builder strategy and neglect their defenses.)

Nathan

	02-01-2003 00:59									#96
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Some points after looking at turn 21:

1. War Chariots are now effectively useless for us offensively. Unless we focus our resources on hacking or roading Jungle (which will not work IMO...takes too long), we need to start planning for Swordsmen if we want to fight the Voxians.

2. We need to keep track of every Voxian unit we see. Perhaps we could start a seperate "unit-tracker" thread, or just use this thread.

3. I suggest we move all our Warriors up North, and use a couple for interference. We could leave one back South to escort Settlers for now, but we really to need to get a strong presence in that "neck" area.

4. Claiming the bottleneck should be one of our short-term goals. I'm not for sending a Settler out there right away, but rather once we get 6 or so cities founded. If the Voxians grab it, we're in for trouble.

5. How do explore up North but prevent the Voxians from coming South? Is it even possible to arrange this?


Dominae

	02-01-2003 02:20									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 1. War Chariots are now effectively useless for us offensively. Unless we focus our resources on hacking or roading Jungle (which will not work IMO...takes too long), we need to start planning for Swordsmen if we want to fight the Voxians.

I would think we need to get a road to there anyway, we need extra workers for this. WCs are far from useless if they can reach the jungle from EotS in 2 turns.

quote: 3. I suggest we move all our Warriors up North, and use a couple for interference. We could leave one back South to escort Settlers for now, but we really to need to get a strong presence in that "neck" area.

Whow... hold on. I agree we need a lot of forces close to Vox, but don't forget that we still don't know if there are barbs around. We got huts, so barb activity could be anything in between sedentary and raging, we need to foresee something here too. In Nathan's test game, I didn't know the setting, but those barbs were a considerable force to keep in mind, that same thing could happen in the real game!

quote: 5. How do explore up North but prevent the Voxians from coming South? Is it even possible to arrange this?

I'd like to see some screenies, but quite possibly, Vox is going to want to block the ishtmus as fast as we want it. we should need one warrior scouting up there before trying to block it ourselves, if only to keep them from blocking us when only 1 warrior is in place. But all this depends on the layout, and I haven't seen any screenshots (yet).
Diplomatically, we could agree not to pass the site if they don't pas to our side, but I would rather know where they are exactly, and how their capital is founded. And no way they are going to agree that we can walk around near them, if they can't do the same to us.

DeepO

	02-01-2003 02:57									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I would think we need to get a road to there anyway, we need extra workers for this. WCs are far from useless if they can reach the jungle from EotS in 2 turns.

I agree, that's why I said War Chariots are now useless to us offensively. With no path through the Jungle (see the latest screenshot), we need Workers to make it possible for our WCs to pass through. This will take a while. If we start on WCs now, they will be patrolling our lands with nothing to do. We may very well clear a path eventually, so I should not say that WCs are completely useless to us on offense, just so in the short term.

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Whow... hold on. I agree we need a lot of forces close to Vox, but don't forget that we still don't know if there are barbs around. We got huts, so barb activity could be anything in between sedentary and raging, we need to foresee something here too.

I'm guessing Barb activity will be very low. Regardless, one Warrior is sufficient to hold the fort until we begin producing more units (our second city should make a couple before starting on a Settler). Military presence in a bottleneck is very important.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 02:59									#99
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I'd prefer not to expose our units to the Vox's sight. If they suddenly see five warriors emerging from the fog of war (even if we announce that they're only there for exploration purposes) they'll assume that we have several other units at home, panic and start building up on military units. On the other hand, if we don't expose more than two warriors to Vox then they'll take a more relaxed approach and invest in settlers and culture instead of spearmen and archers, which is just what we want.

	02-01-2003 03:12									#100
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A show of force could go either way, IMO: it could signal to them that we're aggressive, or just that we want to protect our (peaceful) interests. I doubt Vox's decisions will be swayed by a few Warriors so early on in the game.

In any case, we can always push our Warriors up North but make sure that Vox doesn't see them.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 03:38									#101
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Well, the barb comment was just a warning. I found that many times already, we have assumed something (e.g. being isolated) before the time was right, only because the turns are going so slowly we think we're farther ahead in the game then we are. The barbs can be the same thing: It's possible to play 20 turns without barbs in a game, only to find out that they actually are numerous, and aggresive. I'm not sure on the exact mechanism, but surely it seems that only after a while, camps get founded, and not from 4000 BC. (could be something like for every hut taken, one camp is created, for every camp destroyed, a new appears). It is entirely possible we have 2 or 3 camps on our future lands already.

I'm not saying I believe barb activity will be high, but so far, I see no reason to believe it will be low either. We should assume the worst at this point.

DeepO

	02-01-2003 03:42									#102
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Oh, BTW, I read somewhere of the possibility of Vox upgrading warriors to immortals, but I douubt we will see mass upgrading. First of all, it is a tactic that can be considered quite advanced, and I don't think Vox is that. But most importantly: you need gold to upgrade, and where would they get it from? the only gold in the game seems to come from huts and barbs, as everybody will probably research at full speed. I doubt many are considering trading techs or minimaps for gold already, so most likely they are as broke as we are. Hence, no upgrades, meaning that we should have at least a limited amount of time to prepare for a possible attack.

DeepO

	02-01-2003 05:22									#103
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DeepO,

I wouldn't assume away a warrior -> immortal upgrade strategy. One thing we need to watch as time goes on is Vox's treasury. If they suddenly start to accumulate gold, it's a good bet they are planning on using it to upgrade units. On the other hand, if they're smart, they would do the upgrades 1-2 units at a time over 10 or so turns, to hide their intentions.

It's not really all that advanced, is it? It's just turning gold into shields, which in SP is certainly worth it, and even though the dynamic is a different in MP, the basics are still there: upgrading allows you to build a powerful attack force without a large shield investment. The penalty is slowed research, but in this case, the ensuing GA would fix that.

-Arrian

	02-01-2003 05:33									#104
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O, I'm not saying they won't do it, but still... I'm sceptic. You might not consider it a very advanced tactic, but it took me a long time to master it. I agree it remains possible, but MP gives a few problems, one of which is that you can't rely on AIs for your research. Building up a decent treasury would be hard, but if they decide to stop all their research, and squarely go for an update budget it remains possible, and would be one of my preferred tactics with immortals as well.

One question though: how would you monitor their treasury? You can't see it like you can in SP as trades are only 1 way, you don't see what they can offer you. I guess the F8 power graph should give us some clue, so a screenshot of that would certainly be appreciated, but that's not really a easy graph to read.

DeepO

	02-01-2003 06:11									#105
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A last observation before the night: how many warriors would Vox have at this moment? We're already seeing 2 of them, and assuming their capital isn't empty, there should at least be one more. Which means 3 warriors, which is, without forest cutting, what you would expect in turn 21. If this is true, their entire force of warriors is heading for us, wouldn't this suggest the contintent we're on is only populated by Vox and ourselves (as none of their warriors is heading another direction)?

DeepO

	02-01-2003 06:48									#106
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO A last observation before the night: how many warriors would Vox have at this moment? We're already seeing 2 of them, and assuming their capital isn't empty, there should at least be one more. Which means 3 warriors, which is, without forest cutting, what you would expect in turn 21. If this is true, their entire force of warriors is heading for us, wouldn't this suggest the contintent we're on is only populated by Vox and ourselves (as none of their warriors is heading another direction)?

That does make such a possibility a lot more likely, although there are other possibilities. For example, they might have started close to someone and already exchanged sufficient information not to feel a need to explore in that direction (especially if their contact is a civ they expect to be peaceful).

The more I think about it, the more I think it's absolutely vital that we find out whether we and Vox are the only ones on the continent or not ASAP. If we are, we probably ought to develop a very close research partnership in order to keep up with the rest of the world. Early conflict would only weaken both of us. (And besides, WCs can upgrade to knights or cavalry. :evilgrin

Nathan

	02-01-2003 06:51									#107
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I think you're right Nathan. If it's just us and Vox stuck on a rock in the middle of the ocean we'll have to work together, for a while at least.

	02-01-2003 06:51									#108
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Very astute observation DeepO! There are plenty of scenarios where you could be wrong (popping Warriors from Huts, cutting Forest, bad exploration tactics, etc.), but chances are you're right. Their exploring Warriors were probably funnelled to the chokepoint, revealing something about the local geography. It is therefore imperative that we claim the chokepoint, since we know we'll be denying them land.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 07:19									#109
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quote: popping Warriors from Huts,

arn't these conscripts...?
(although I do see what you mean, the popped warrior could have gone in a different direction, leaving the reg warrior to follow the other one..)

Am i the only one who thinks, VOX is really hoping there are not alone with us
I'm pretty sure they are very scared...

	02-01-2003 07:31									#110
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Imposing a unilateral blockade could be a good way to start a fight, especially if the chokepoint is closer to their capital than to ours. This isn't SP where you can do pretty much whatever you want to outside a civ's borders without adversely affecting diplomatic relations. In MP, setting up a blockade in what another civ has reason to regard as its own rightful territory could easily be viewed as an act of military aggression. And whether we want to attack them or work closely with them as research partners, putting them on a higher state of military alert doesn't seem like an ideal move.

If we don't want them past the chokepoint, the logical thing to do would be to negotiate that diplomatically as at least a temporary border that neither side will cross, preferably before they get any farther into our territory than they already are. (If they don't know where our capital is, there may be less static about the chokepoint's being closer to their capital than to ours, assuming my hypothesis that it's closer to them is correct.)

Nathan

	02-01-2003 07:35									#111
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I am not sure about that,
Those immortals have me a little spooked. If they get a bug up their butt and want to prove a point, our only hope would be to outproduce them and pray.

Now for the observations regarding the quantity of warriors and reletive strength, interesting points. As of now, war would be a 50/50 chance even if the warriors are goodies


Mss

	02-01-2003 07:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed I am not sure about that, Those immortals have me a little spooked. If they get a bug up their butt and want to prove a point, our only hope would be to outproduce them and pray.

I'm definitely worried about what immortals could do in the North, but in the South, immortals would have to come out in the open where WCs could massacre them.

Nathan

	02-01-2003 08:03									#113
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Nathan, since Vox knows nothing about "our" lands to the South, I believe they would view a blockade at the chokepoint a logical thing to do, and not a aggressive act. I surely expect them to send units and a Settler over there ASAP. Clearly we do not want them to come further South, and they do not want us to go further North, so the diplomatic solution should work. However I do not see any reason not to patrol the "borders" as a precaution. Eventually one team is going to want to settle that really juicy strip that is only 3 tiles wide.
Then the fighting will begin.


Dominae

	02-01-2003 08:21									#114
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Thats why they need to go north again, for now all they know is that we swamped in jungle.
Let them think we are in 'trouble' and start the war on us (eventually), but then they MUSN'T go more south!!!

	02-01-2003 15:13									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I wouldn't assume away a warrior -> immortal upgrade strategy. One thing we need to watch as time goes on is Vox's treasury. If they suddenly start to accumulate gold, it's a good bet they are planning on using it to upgrade units. On the other hand, if they're smart, they would do the upgrades 1-2 units at a time over 10 or so turns, to hide their intentions.

But, in MP, we can't see how much gold the other team has, we can't see anything of his in the trade table.

	02-01-2003 15:24									#116
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quote: Originally posted by alva Thats why they need to go north again, for now all they know is that we swamped in jungle. Let them think we are in 'trouble' and start the war on us (eventually), but then they MUSN'T go more south!!!

If they decide to move straight southward with their first sighted warrior, they could take an opportunist attack at EotS in 10 turns.

I'm bit worried about that since we have only one warrior guarding it, and it will mess our build order if we'll have to switch to producing defensive unit all the sudden.

Maybe shadow that warrior with ours, incase it proceeds down south ?

Or send them some sort of diplomatic bluff as suggested what could keep them from coming southwards (dont think it will work - they are not stupid)

	02-01-2003 15:34									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I'd prefer not to expose our units to the Vox's sight. If they suddenly see five warriors emerging from the fog of war (even if we announce that they're only there for exploration purposes) they'll assume that we have several other units at home, panic and start building up on military units. On the other hand, if we don't expose more than two warriors to Vox then they'll take a more relaxed approach and invest in settlers and culture instead of spearmen and archers, which is just what we want.

But, isn't it good, if they start to build extra spearmen in their cities, because it will cripple their early expansion compared to ours.

	02-01-2003 18:10									#118
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quote: If they decide to move straight southward with their first sighted warrior, they could take an opportunist attack at EotS in 10 turns. I'm bit worried about that since we have only one warrior guarding it, and it will mess our build order if we'll have to switch to producing defensive unit all the sudden.

Something they don't know of course, I doubt they would do that, unless they play as barbs..

	05-01-2003 07:54									#119
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"We shall defend our land, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills;we shall never surrender."

- Winston Churchill
____________________________________

Vox' attitude and actions have already been the equivalent of a gauntlet thrown at our feet.

I say we respond with the appropriate gesture, which is a slap in their face. What are they thinking... that with Immortals they hold the trump card? Not so, by any means (as I'm proving to my own satisfaction in AU 203).

I propose the following:

* Diplomatic
- Direct communication with Vox: As per Nathan's draft letter.
- Indirect communication with Vox: Someone with a 'poly relationship with one of there team send a PM saying something like "Theseus and Arrian want to go after you HARD... are you CRAZY??!!"
- Second-hand communication: Make inquiries with GoW as to hiring them... make sure Vox finds out.

* Military: We need a surfeit of Warriors, NOW! At least 4 more... take the battle to the hill where Grog now stands... defend there, and notice that there's no way past except on grassland.

* Economic: I know that delaying the post-Granary Settler from EotS is an issue... can someone test or calculate how it differs from the current plan given the increase in pop?

* Research: Screw BW... let's go with Warrior Code and wipe the f-ckers out.

In general, I feel that we can capitalize on our reputation. How people want to play that is yet to be determined.... but I do NOT want to stand for their diplo "delays", their exploration of OUR territory below the isthmus and the blockage thereof, their not sharing contact with other civs, etc.

In case our rep and diplo skills aren't enough, we should prepare for all out war.

	05-01-2003 08:05									#120
	Nice one Theseus :b: Suffering from ads?

quote: - Indirect communication with Vox: Someone with a 'poly relationship with one of there team send a PM saying something like "Theseus and Arrian want to go after you HARD... are you CRAZY??!!"

Very Good idea

quote: - Second-hand communication: Make inquiries with GoW as to hiring them...

1. Again , Gow could be the one to find whom VOX has contact with, if nothing else

quote: make sure Vox finds out.

2. sure, but not immediatly, alwayss hold an ace(pressure) back

quote: * Military: We need a surfeit of Warriors, NOW! At least 4 more... take the battle to the hill where Grog now stands... defend there, and notice that there's no way past except on grassland.

Agreed, I more or less said the same thing

quote: * Research: Screw BW... let's go with Warrior Code and wipe the f-ckers out.

100%

quote: In general, I feel that we can capitalize on our reputation.

It woudn't a bad thing to remind the world of this