02-04-2003 17:34									#121
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The only problem is that the Voxes working on 10% would discover Engineering in 250 turns. What's the point?

So, summarizing our plans:

1. Talk to RP and see if they are willing to accept a Th - Eng. deal, and in what conditions (best would be a "no-Sistine" clause, but don't tell this directly to them; ask for a gold compensation first and then see what their reaction is; the "non-sistine" clause could appear as a brilliant "instead-of-money" new idea ); also it would be nice to find out their ETA for Eng.

2. Talk with the GoW about a possible Th - Feud. trade, and negotiate the beakers difference (I'd strongly prefer a Non-Agression Pact over gold)

3. If the RP deal is uncertain, try to make a deal with the Voxes somehow (for Eng)
Edit: I also don't prefer RP over Voxes, but if they want only to stockpile money and research on a very low percentage, then we will have to wait too much for Eng. This is why I think that right now a deal with the RPs is better. But should the negotiations with RP fail, of course I'm for the Vox deal.

4. Don't tell the GS about the GoW deal, and try to avoid long term tech coordination with them (unless they change their attitude and offer fair deals, that is). Try to make a deal for Chivalry, but only at the right moment (which is not now ).

5. Wait and see what happens

Last edited by Tiberius on 02-04-2003 at 18:02

	02-04-2003 17:53									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The only problem is that the Voxes working on 10% would discover Engineering in 250 turns. What's the point?

Wrong. 40 turns. No tech research takes more than 40 turns ever. 40 turns is slightly earlier than what we will need to get to Theo+Edu, so the timing woud be just fine. That's why I'd seriously consider this option in case RPers are not reasonable.

	02-04-2003 17:58									#123
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Really? I didn't know that

Now the Vox deal looks much better, but the RP trade is still better if can get some money from them (while no money from Vox).

Anyway, otherwise you do agree with the plan, I understand?

	02-04-2003 18:57									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Anyway, otherwise you do agree with the plan, I understand?

Yes, basically, I do agree. Talk to RPers, talk to GoW. See what happens. That's the plan I'd go for (but let's wait for others... we can afford spending 24 hours on gathering ideas...).

	02-04-2003 19:04									#125
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	03-04-2003 05:18									#126
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My 2 cents on the Sistine: I don't see how we can "come up" with a no-Sistine clause out of the blue; either we want that wonder and would want such a clause, or we don't want it and would see such a clause as useless to us. IMO, this is one card we can't hide our interest in simply because we will have to play it.

I also think we're in a risky position Sistine-wise. GS seems to think it's a pre-build, not the Pyramids themselves, and it may be the other teams share this view. The truth is, we're actually going for them, and we have no pre-builds for the Sistine; nor will we for a while, as Jackson is occupied with the Pyramds and then will be building a Temple, Barracks, and some needed units, and Legopolis needs to build basic infrastructure for the time being. Once the other teams realize that (when we become the first to build a wonder ), a no-Sistine clause will be much harder to get.

So, if we really want a shot at the Sistine, I think we need to sign future tech deals - or at least no-Sistine clauses - ASAP. Once we build the Pyramids, our diplomatic situation becomes much weaker; teams may guess they have a good chance at beating us to Sistines.

Of course, how we rush to sign such agreements without revealing this very situation, I have no idea. It also depends on whether teams have started Sistine pre-builds yet either; GoW is the only other team to publicly work on a wonder, but I don't know what their goal is - it could well be Leo's Workshop. Or maybe even they don't know yet. At any rate, just my thoughts on the subject reading this... anyone better at diplomacy want to respond to this?

	03-04-2003 09:38									#127
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Just a quick note - I have just heard back from BetaHound. Voxes are researching Engineering at 10% and are ready to make a deal with us. PLUS - and this is interesting - they made a gpt deal with RPers on Engineering... so it is likely that RPers will try reselling Engineering to us now, getting possibly more than they are supposed to pay to Voxes.

My suggestion: ask them about the deal carefully, but do not get into heavy negotiations and make our deal with Voxes. Voxes are the real source, RPers are just a reseller. This also effectively solves the problem with Sistine... we do not have to tell RPers at all. Besides, RPers were really not nice to us, getting C+C from Voxes, so I feel no urge to strike a deal with them now... OTOH, Voxes helped us big time, so making another deal with them will be just fine.

As for the GoW prebuild... I am quite sure it is not for Sistine. It should be either for Sun Tzu or Leo's. There is an abundance of luxuries on Bob - it is easier to take the land with luxuries for them than to build Sistine's, I think... just a feeling, but I think I am right...

	03-04-2003 09:53									#128
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The RP got C+C from Voxes? The GS didn't include a no-resale clause in their trade?

This is from our latest GS treaty:

quote: GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns.

Radek, could you please ask Beta for such a clause in their agreement with GS and then ask DeepO what happened? I don't like to being taken as stupid.

	03-04-2003 15:01									#129
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Tibi, DeepO expressly admitted they "could not" offer the NDA clause in their trade agreement with Voxes. Neither me nor redstar1 commented on that:

quote: [23:13] DeepO there is one problem with this: we are going to need to expect NDAs on their techs too [23:13] DeepO which is one of the reasons we couldn't really offer it to Vox on the techs we just sent them [23:13] DeepO (we'll ask for it, though, but we can't demand) [23:14] DeepO because otherwise, MT has to be bought from Vox [23:14] DeepO and their price would be higher [23:14] vondrack I see...

Let's remember it well and never ever sell them anything with resale rights again. They blatantly breached our trade agreement just hours after signing it (acting as if it was ok, because it was simply "not possible" to do otherwise), so we shall keep that in mind every time we do business with them.

OTOH, RPers were told about this (at least I believe so) and yet they went ahead and got C+C from Voxes. Which makes me equally angry with them (RPers) - this is certainly not how you treat your "most favoured" neighbour nation.

The third party, Voxes, is certainly the last one to blame. Actually, when it became apparent that GS was supposed to include an NDA on C+C (which they did not even try to, as it seems), BetaHound immediately told me about the deal with RPers and apologized for screwing our own deal. I told him to proceed (not wishing to provide anyone with even the slightest hint of our contact with Voxes)... and thought it would be a nice "test" of how trusthworthy RPers are. The result was that when Nimitz spoke to Togas about that, Togas just "shrugged" and told us "you, guys, should talk to the nations you had your NDAs in effect with". So much for the proclaimed friendship of the Roleplaying team.

Considering the lesson learned in the ISDG ("It is ok to catch the other party lying. But it is not okay to tell them they were caught."), I would not do anything official now. Let's just consider how other teams treat us while arranging our future deals (that's why I strongly favour striking deals with GoW & Voxes over any deals with RPers and GS... even trying to arrange a deal with ND may be better).

	03-04-2003 17:42									#130
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Talking briefly to BetaHound earlier today, I sort of encouraged him to make us an offer on Engineering... he made it clear that Voxes know they owe us (because of, even if unintentionally, screwing our deal with RPers) and that they will make sure to balance that out.

BTW, the gpt deal they've made with RPers was on C+C+Mono... when touching the issue remotely today, I have realized that what he was saying was not making sense, so I asked him again to clarify - and found out I misunderstood him before. So, RPers have no deal on Engineering with Voxes, they bought C+C+Mono from them.

One thing I would like to stress now: let's refrain from commenting on whom we traded with and whom not. It is apparently very advantageous to know what is going on "behind the scene", while denying the same knowledge to other teams... at least from our last deals, it is very obvious that the more we know about who's sleeping with whom the better deals we are able to strike.

	07-04-2003 17:46									#131
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With the new happenings it looks like we will have to trade Feud+Chivalry with GoW instead of the earlier plan (one with GS, one with GoW).

Radek proposed to me that we should exchange Feud+Chiv for Theo+Edu (with the GoW). They would promise not to build the Sistine and Bach's, and we would promise not to build Sun Tzu's.
The difference between the 2 vs. 2 techs is huge (480 beakers), but Radek argued that this way we will be able to keep them happy and seeking other targets, not us (especially now, with their UU approaching). While I agree that this is a very good argument, I feel that we must ask something in return, or otherwise we will look scared (like a little boy asking a big bad guy: "want a chocolate? ") Now either we ask money (like 100 gold, or 5 gpt) or something else. Their world map woul'd be nice , but that's still not enough, IMHO.
Actually I have an idea: they could give us workers. Since we can't trade them (one must have cities on the same continent to trade workers) we could do it this way: they bring two workers on Legos with a galley, we capture them (declare war) and then next turn we make peace. If they are willing to, we can even exchange workers this way (once the Pyramids will be ready, that should work fast).

	07-04-2003 19:14									#132
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I hope this doesn't look like I was pushing the idea vigorously. It was just a very rough and quick idea, based upon the fact that soon (especially if GS gets eliminated or seriously hampered in their development), our research will probably become a bit faster than that of the rest of the world. It will soon become impossible to get really "fair" deals, as nobody will actually be able to pay "fair" prices (especially speaking about tech-for-tech trades). It will become more valuable to make and maintain "grateful and happy" de facto allies that enjoy receiving very fine tech deals from us on regular basis... than to always get a precise beaker per beaker price for our stuff...

Maybe we could do it like this: let's ask GoW what kind of a balance they would consider to throw in if we make them an offer on a Theo+Edu for Feu+Chiv deal (with a very long, say 30-turn, NDA plus the wonder clause in effect - they don't attempt to build Sistine's & Bach's, we don't attempt to build Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's). Considering the past deals with them, I guess we can expect a pretty fair balance... and being open with them should also pay off.

It's just an idea I would like to discuss... but I would prefer keeping GoW in our "camp" as much as possible - not using treaties (as those are so easy to break), but giving really fair treatment. If we help them to maintain a slight tech lead over the other Bobians (thanks to the generous tech deals), they should be less tempted to turn their warmongering eyes our way and prefer getting more land there, on Bob - which makes better sense from their PoV anyway, for various reasons (corruption, ability to defend, luxuries etc.).

	07-04-2003 19:35									#133
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Even though we may not get beaker-for-beaker tech deals in the future, it doesn't mean that we must give them for free. A small compensation (like a WM, some money, small services) never hurt.

I agree with your arguments (I've said it before). All I'm asking is that we ask something in return, so we don't look like "chickening" in facing GoW's power

Asking them what would they consider a fair offer to balance the beakers difference is a good idea.

A new idea has just come to my mind: what if we ask GoW to compensate the beakers difference with a "protection pact"? This is what they are dreaming of doing, aren't they So, in return for the huge difference in the cost of the techs we are providing, they would "protect us" against any aggression for the next 30 turns. What do you think? 480 beakers / 30 turns = 16 beakars / turn. Not bad, IMHO.

	07-04-2003 19:51									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Even though we may not get beaker-for-beaker tech deals in the future, it doesn't mean that we must give them for free. A small compensation (like a WM, some money, small services) never hurt.

Agreed completely... we just have to keep in mind that certain "services" which are "small" in our eyes may be quite big in theirs (just think of what we think about teams that ask for or even demand our world map).

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I agree with your arguments (I've said it before). All I'm asking is that we ask something in return, so we don't look like "chickening" in facing GoW's power

Yes, I understand - and I find this point of yours very good. Thus my suggestion to ask them what they'd consider a fair balance... taking into consideration our past dealings, I believe they wouldn't consider it a sign of weakness, but a sign of good will and trust.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius A new idea has just come to my mind: what if we ask GoW to compensate the beakers difference with a "protection pact"? This is what they are dreaming of doing, aren't they So, in return for the huge difference in the cost of the techs we are providing, they would "protect us" against any aggression for the next 30 turns. What do you think? 480 beakers / 30 turns = 16 beakars / turn. Not bad, IMHO.

Well... not exactly sure about this... it certainly is an idea worth considering, but would we not look exactly like those "frightened chickens"? I believe that with how strong our army appears to be compared to other teams, we might prefer posing as "needing no protection, able to protect ourselves".

Perhaps, we should not propose it ourselves, but if they come with an idea like that, we shall take it (I think we shall take whatever makes them happy and allows us to "keep our face" - avoiding to look too eager to strike the deal).

	07-04-2003 20:02									#135
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I don't know if we should include a "protection pact" immediately, but perhaps if we decide to grow closer with GoW that might be a mutual option like our seemingly failed attempts with RP.

As for the beaker difference now, the alternative might be a gold "loan" to us that would be repayable back to them in a future tech exchange.

	16-04-2003 03:28									#136
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What will we research after Theology?

We'll only have ~5 turns before the revolt, then several turns in anarchy. It occured to me that maybe we should run 0% science after Theology until we hit Republic. The saved gold could be partly used to rush important improvements if needed, and we could raise the science slider to 100% for a while under Republic, speeding up our research. What do you think? Cost-effective or not?

	16-04-2003 10:19									#137
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Read the first post of this thread Kloreep. It is continuously updated (with current and future research data, etc).

As for the 0% science: I don't know. We could save indeed some gold for rushing improvements, but I don't think we could afford to research on 100% for too long in Republic; maybe a few turns. We could however run on 80% or so, losing a few gpt. Besides the science race will slow down a bit I think (because of the war) and there is no need to lose money. We better save it for upgrades.

	14-05-2003 10:26									#138
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Next tech: Education.
Someone against it?

	14-05-2003 12:05									#139
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Certainly not me.

The question is, though, do we go for Edu immediately after discovering Theo, or do we shut the research down and save money for few turns? Specifically, I am thinking of a cathedral goldrush in Legopolis, as that is - after the Marketplace - the last improvement we will need before being able to start building the Sistine's there.

Gold will also come in handy to upgrade our horses and may also be needed to further support the Voxian war efforts in the future. We know their campaign opening was less than spectacular, GS scoring a couple of lucky hits, including a GL - the war over there will not be easy, though Voxes are gaining more support from other teams.

Not pushing this, as we may very well continue with Edu immediately and spend few turns hoarding gold after discovering it or in the middle of the research, when and IF we actually get in need of some more gold.

	14-05-2003 12:31									#140
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Another alternative would be to research on less than 100% from now on. With more and more temples this will become shortly a must, or we will lose too many gpt. I'd propose an 80% research. This would slow our research down with 3 or 4 turns for Education, while the money income would be ~ 10 gpt.

	14-05-2003 12:56									#141
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Not a bad idea. I think we may specify it as "the maximum research rate that still yields at least 10gpt into our coffers every turn".

Yes, I like it. Way to go.

	23-05-2003 10:49									#142
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I know we have just begun researching Education and it will take a while, but is it safe to assume that our next tech will be Music Theory? I mean, if possible, we do want to build Bach's, correct?

	23-05-2003 13:55									#143
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Our next tech should actually be Astronomy, I believe, so that we can start trading (I know Voxes would be very happy to trade horses with us, and GoW would be extremely happy to trade iron with us).

As Legopolis will start with its wonder build in ~15-20 turns, needing about ~30 turns to build a 600-shield wonder, we'll have time enough to do Music Theory after Astronomy (plus, other teams will be highly unlikely to research a non-military, optional tech).

I agree we should build Bach's first (as it helps with the unhappiness w/o any buildings, unlike Sistine's), Sistine's only then (if still available - we should do our best to ensure everybody else agrees to not building it in exchange for something).

	25-06-2003 16:20									#144
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Operation Industrial Path

We need the following tech only to get to Industrial once we have completed Education:

1) Astronomy 1344 beakers
2) Banking 1248 beakers
3) Engineering (promised by Vox) 864 beakers
4) Invention 1056 beakers
5) Gunpowder 1152 beakers
6) Chemistry 1440 beakers
7) Metallurgy 1536 beakers
8) Physics 1536 beakers
9) Theory of Gravity 1632 beakers
10) Magnetism 1632 beakers

We don't need for Industrial Age:
1) Chivalry 768 beakers
2) Democracy 1632 beakers
3) Economics 1344 beakers
4) Free Artistry 1248 beakers
5) Military Tradition 1536 beakers
6) Music Theory 960 beakers
7) Navigation 1344 beakers
8) Printing Press 864 beakers

We will be 12,576 beakers away from Industrial Age at maximum once we get Engineering and Education.

Any civ will need 5 techs totalling 6,816 beakers to get Military Tradition (and this is without Engineering) in comparison btw.

It may seem hard to believe but it appears as though we already nearly halfway through the middle ages. With all the talk of defense recently, and the concerns of a cavalry attack, perhaps we and our tech allies should concentrate mostly on rushing though these 10 techs in order to trigger Vox's free industrial age tech.

While unfortunately with 1.21 now it is now only a 1/3 chance for nationalism from Vox, the other 2 techs of Steam Power and Medicine also have direct or indirect benefits to us in terms of defense. Steam power for instance would give us Ironclads and leave us much closer to getting those valuable Infantry units. Even Medicine would bring us closer to Sanitation and in our case with the Pyramids allowing us to more quickly get a +50% defense bonus from going above size 12.

Admittedly this is from the Civ 3 manual (I can't honestly remember if this has been changed in the game I have never tested it).

	08-07-2003 15:09									#145
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Just a thought regarding our long-term research plans and research cooperation with Voxes. They informed us that Engineering would be ready in 4 turns - and we should know what new goal we'd prefer them to go for.

My suggestion: Invention.

Reasoning: we plan to do Astronomy, then Music Theory, then most probably Navigation (as we will need Magellan's to trigger our GA... no other fine commercial wonder in sight). Voxes will be going for a 40-turns research, that's for sure. Thus, it would be best to have them researching as expensive tech as possible - 'cause that's the way to maximize the 40-turn research benefit.

Now, only two techs are actually available: Printing Press @ 864 beakers and Invention @ 1056 beakers (we do Astro, GS does Banking). Thus, the better choice is Invention.

There is an added benefit to this: we will not have to trade techs for Invention. We will be able to sell Edu to RPers & ND for some cash (which we will have to do in about ~10 turns, otherwise GoW will sell it once our NDA ends) and we will get Invention from Voxes for free. This will allow us - after doing Astronomy, Music Theory, and Navigation - to switch to the "lower" branch and speed ahead, researching the mandatory techs (there are no more mandatory techs available in the "upper" part of the techtree after Astronomy & Banking).

This also ensures we get to Military Tradition before anyone else (barring GS, perhaps), making us very hard to invade with technically superior units.

And I believe that Voxes would not be too much slower than GoW or whoever else would be going for Inv too. They will hopefully stay out of wars, while others are unlikely to manage to... so others are likely to research at 40-turns, too (with their GNP, it definitely makes sense).

	08-07-2003 15:39									#146
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Yes, most definitely the best choice for Vox is Invention

In the meantime we could contact ND (perhaps RP too, even though ...) to discuss possible future tech deals. There's no point to have so many teams researching Invention. Of course, if they want to research it for themselves, so be it. But we could maybe convince them to go for PP.

Just a reminder: the first and second post of this thread containes most of the (if not all) pertinent data regarding research and trade.

Last edited by Tiberius on 08-07-2003 at 15:45

	09-07-2003 04:00									#147
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No, we will need Invention in order to get Gunpowder very soon. We can't afford to wait for up to 40 turns (yes I know it will probably be less than that but we or another established civ can research invention much much faster than Vox will be able to.

Vox may rise back up to 8 cities fairly quickly but GoW for instance has 14 cities and cities that are mostly highly developed so I suspect that they will beat Vox to Invention (plus they have the incentive to get there quickly so to get Leo's done first).

Besides, we should be able to trade Astronomy to GoW for Invention as won't they need Astronomy too to trade with us?

	09-07-2003 04:12									#148
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I don't think both sides need Astronomy, just one.

However, I agree with Sharpe. GoW is going to beat Vox if Vox tries to get Invention, and GoW is one team I want to be trading with. Printing Press would be a better research tech. Sure, it's not quite as costly so 40-turn research may not be as effective, but no one else seems to be going for it, and Vox might actually be able to make some gold off of Religious civs.

	09-07-2003 04:14									#149
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Having Vox go for Invention would be less than optimal, as I see it. GoW will be beelining for Inv as fast as they can, I think. I do not believe they would start a war until they have Leo's in hand.

Additionally, we've got good trading relations with GoW, and the idea of an Inv-Astr. trade has already been floated, so why sour things by backing out now?

	09-07-2003 10:24									#150
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I made a (very) rough calculation (somebody who can open the save and has more time and more patience than me can do it better ) to see what that "full speed ahead" could mean for GoW.

Starting from Vondrack's calculation, the 3rd nation's GNP is 61. Presumably this civ must be RP or ND, with their overstreched and highly corrupted empire GoW must be 5th. Therefor their GNP should be between 50 and 60. Let's say 56-58. They are Republic, paying maintenance for military (and they have about the same size mil. as we do) and city improvements (OK, less temples, but probably more barracks) so IMHO they can't research faster than 50%, more likely 40%. Even if they have a library (we are the only civ with 2) that means max. 30-35 beakers per turn.
That means a research period of 1056/35=31 or 1056/30=35 turns.

A 40 turn research would mean a 1056/40=27 beakers science output.

Unless they are prepared to lose a lot of money, GoW can't research Invention much faster than Vox.


Edit: screw this. I started with a wrong figure. Bah ..

On the other hand, it is true that we want to keep GoW happy about their trades with us. This would be the only reason why I'd say that leaving Invention to GoW may be a good idea.

Last edited by Tiberius on 09-07-2003 at 13:37