11-01-2003 03:33									#241
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Response received from Lux. Looks like we have a glitch. They have ceremonial burial. I suspect they are trading on their continent.

They also mention that we should be able to see on the trade screen what they have available. Can Eli or Diss please check the save and let us know.

And a somewhat more sinister and depressing thought. Maybe they are in touch via PM with GS. Perhaps they know about the current trade tensions between us. Maybe that is affecting their stance. I somehow doubt it - I suspect it is with another civ on their continent. This is early proof that if we get out of the tech trading loop, we may be left behind in a hurry.

Perhaps another reason to say yes to the trade for the wheel. Does Lux have it. Please check the screen. Thanks. Here's their message.

RE: Hello!!!
Unfortunately, we at this time are chasing the same skills. Being a scientifc and industrious civ ourselves, we are looking toward creating a better metal alloy you call, iron. We suspect with such discovery, we can create a formidable army to which we can defend our nation and trade such secret.

You must inquire your controller which techs you posess that we possibly cannot have(or whoever has access to save file). It has been our long tradition of honoring our ancestors and burying them in proper burial grounds. This form of tradition has led us to wonder who our first ancestors were. We concluded that we are all children of light, there for We worship the light, and its giver the sun. Many local villages are gathering in masses to worhip this wonderful deity. I suggest if you do not have a religion, join us~

You must discuss within your own team which techs are available to our disposal that we do not have. Once again, this can be seen on the trade screen. I am quite uncertain of which technology you guys have/don't have, but I assure you, we are very advanced. We have many to offer, so there will always be plenty of reward to do business with Lux Invicta. With natural border securing both of our empire and reducing hostilities, we look foward to pure trades and helping each other's interests.

	11-01-2003 03:43									#242
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

more reason to trade with GS

than we can trade with Lux more and be very advanced also

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 04:26									#243
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

And BTW - GS waited from 03:00 to 13:00 EST, but did play the turn, I bet they are ticked at us - but I bet they still take the deal.

And it is interesting that we have gotten no response on our territorial letter as of yet. I think they want to see it backed up with a trade. It will be difficult settling south of the chokepoint if they have hostile warriors and chariots running around. Difficult, but not impossible.

	11-01-2003 06:55									#244
	Increase Your PM Length

I have posted the proposed letter back to GS on the trade poll thread. Realized I should probably have posted it here. Sorry - can't even follow my own rules.

Nathan Barclay of Gathering Storm,

Greetings my dear sir. My humble apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I acknowledge the pressures that have been placed on you and your leaders by our deliberations.

After considerable discussion - and I think you fully understand and appreciate the magnitude of these early decisions - I am pleased to inform you that I have been directed by the Controller to advise Gathering Storm that the two-tiered technology trade, as previously outlined, is acceptable to Vox Controli.

To this end, we would, at the earliest possible moment, trade bronze working for the wheel. At a prescribed future date, we will trade iron working for alphabet. We acknowldge the need for the two-tiered trade to create equity in the overall beeker costs of the trades involved.

We do have one concern. In the first instance, we are trading a 'military' technology for another military technology, which in our opinion, is of lesser significance, to us, Vox Controli, of Persian lineage. In the second instance we are trading an even more powerful military technology for a peaceful technology. This way of looking at the two-tiered trade was the major stumbling block to its early approval here at home. We, of Vox Controli, are all certain of our own peaceful intentions. However, some of our senators are not so sure of yours. And this trade was seen by some as a major step in strengthening your military position.

We therefore ask that this deal be taken in conjunction with the earlier proposals on peaceful co-existance on the continent, as outlined in my previous letter. One is dependent on the other.

We would also appreciate a "statement of peaceful intent" from Gathering Storm, given that we have stated our such intent several times now.

We also see the need to get past this early stumbling block our relationship has encountered. If we can work towards mutual trust and co-dependence, I feel that together, we will be better prepared to face the rset of the world. Gathering Storm had raised this point in an earlier correspondence. The position has merits, and I can see us both working towards such a goal.

In conclusion, we do trust that we can do business as described above. I look forward to hearing from you, not only in regards to the technology trade, but with respect to the territorial matters discussed earlier. I offer my sincerest regards to you and the leaders of Gathering Storm.

Yours truly,

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	11-01-2003 07:29									#245
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

see my response in the other thread

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 07:52									#246
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Beta - See how easy it is to get side-tracked for the "appropriate thread"?

My comment, same as Jon - See other thread.

	11-01-2003 12:01									#247
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

in multiplayer games you cannot see what the opponent has for technology (or anything for that matter. you can't see gold or cities, or luxeries either)

edit: but I can see what technologies we have that they don't have. let me check...

	11-01-2003 12:18									#248
	Inflate your Upload Space

OK we have no techs to give Lux.

The only thing we can give them is 59 gold.

	11-01-2003 13:37									#249
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

that is why it would be nice to have the wheel

Jon Miller

	11-01-2003 19:48									#250
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yup!

No word as of yet from GS. We should be prepared for them to stall, and then get nasty when they have enough chariots.

Get Willy and Tim into good mountain sites where the their two siight lines cover the width of the continent - and then hunker them down.

May just be paranoia here - time will tell.

	11-01-2003 22:23									#251
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Response from GS - also went to jon, eli, and diss - this is going to be interesting ...

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

I regret to inform you that I have contracted a disease known as "real life," and that my physicians will not permit me to put the time into this message and its related issues that I would really like to. I hope you can understand my situation.

I fear that if you want us to reach a consensus to commit to a permanent peace within the time available for this trade deal, you want the impossible. Your earlier actions have stirred up more than a little mistrust, resentment, and even anger among some of our leaders (indeed, probably among all of us to varying degrees), and those wounds will require a combination of time and positive experiences between our peoples before they can fully heal.

That said, however, we of Gathering Storm can guarantee you of two things. First, it is our great hope to avoid even the hint of warfare for a long time to come. We have far too much to do settling cities and building infrastructure to want to waste our resources fighting.

And second, our interest in obtaining Iron Working so early is purely defensive in nature. Were it not for defensive concerns, especially concerns about the power of your immortals, our focus would be entirely on peaceful lines of research. But you do have immortals (or at least the basic technology needed to build them), and in light of the recent tensions, we regard the ability to build swordsmen as an important counterweight.

(If you would feel more comfortable with some specific duration attached to our promise of peace, that could be arranged as long as the duration is reasonable and there are reasonable protections for each side's legitimate interests. But durations imply endings, and I much prefer to view this as merely a beginning.)

We should also point out that contrary to what some among you seem to think, your rejection of our proposal would make little difference in when we learn how to work iron. It is ultimately the peaceful technology, not the military one, that you would cause a major delay to if you reject this proposal. And in the process, you would pass over both a valuable economic opportunity and an opportunity to replace the recent tensions with a clear positive element in our relationship.

In regard to your request that we withdraw our warriors, we would like to propose a different idea. We have long valued the assurances Grog can provide that no Vox Controli army (aside from your two scouts) is anywhere near our territory. If you have any similar concerns regarding us, I imagine you would appreciate similar assurances from the eyes of your own units. We therefore propose that Grog remain where he is for the time being, and that you move Willy "9" and Tim "6-3" (using the Language of the Keys) from their positions as of when we took our turn. Slash can fall back to a less potentially threatening position. That would give each of us early warning should the other attempt a betrayal. (In the words of certain wise men, "Trust, but verify.") We further assure you that this arrangement puts Tim at least as close to our capital as Grog will be to yours, so the warning times on each side will be comparable. The lookouts on both sides would, of course, fall back as the two nations expand.

I know that this does not give you all of the assurances that you might have wanted, but I hope you can recognize that the the tensions caused by your recent actions will require some time to heal. We honestly feel that this trade proposal is in the interest of both our nations, and we hope you can recognize that mutual interest also.

We need to know whether these assurances are sufficient for you to accept our proposal, and we need to know quickly. Otherwise, the opportunity will be lost. (Please send Sir Ralph a copy of your response as well.)

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	11-01-2003 22:30									#252
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, their response is not surprising. Fine. I say we accept their proposal for the wheel for bronze working - the alphabet for iron working will be a different story (but they don't know that)

At least with the wheel we can hopefully use it to trade with Lux.

	11-01-2003 22:30									#253
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

And a second shorter add-on.

Greetings again, BetaHound and Vox Controli,

In regard to your requests concerning the geography of South Estonia and a few other issues, the trade situation, combined with my ongoing bout of "real life," has made it impossible for me to find the time to address them properly. I will do so as soon as I can, however, and I apologize for the delay.

Sincerely,

Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist of Gathering Storm

	11-01-2003 22:35									#254
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We don't want to give them Iron Working. Promising to do so is another matter in other words, I agree with Wittlich.

	11-01-2003 23:05									#255
	Support Apolyton

I agree as well. I just wished they said in there somewhere that the bronze-wheel trade was still OK. I presume they want to hear from us on this first.

It sounds like their suggestions for our warriors are prior to our last move. (hate to be a pain - but at this critical a time - screen shots would be really helpful). And it sounds like they are suggesting moves to the two mountain tops I suggested earlier.

With their warriors, my only concern is whether he is impeding the construction of a road. And I'm not sure which one is Thud. If Thud is the one on the hill on the west coast, then yes - he is OK. We will extend the road onto the tile next to it. In the 2670 screen shot, they still had a warrior there. We would want him to move.

Other than that - I can live with it.

	11-01-2003 23:09									#256
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

yes they wrote this before they saw we moved our warriors back north. Hopefully their worries and tensions will subside in a few turns. I can make screen shots later if need be. But from the one I sent out last turn- just move the warriors up one square and you have this turn Their warriors are pretty much in the same squares.

	12-01-2003 02:38									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Diss - my only concern regarding the southern warriors is that they get and keep positions where the two of them have sightlines across the width of the landmass. That means the one on the west coast has to, or should have moved diagonally in one square, as discussed earlier. The east coast guy can stay on the mountain on the coast I think. You should be able to tell when you play the turn.

	12-01-2003 02:40									#258
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have started volume 2 of F/A with the latest note from Lux. Suggest we complete our discussion of the latest GS letter here, and then move it all to the new thread.

Thanks.