07-01-2003 23:20									#181
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No - I will do it when I get home this evening. You are right, they will be miffed. Which means the sooner we meet Lux, make friends, and trade techs, the better.

As you pointed out Diss, GS won't be ready to wage war for a bit yet. And the north part of South Estonia would appear closer to us than to them - especially with the road we have just built. Which means that settlers and spearman should be able to set up shop in that part of the world before chariots show up - and by then, or soon after, we will have Immortals. I think itis going to be OK.

And another reason for not letting GS through. As you are thinking, sooner or later they are going to want the continent (as are we). So, the sooner they cripple us the better. As they can clearly counter any threat posed by our two wandering warriors down south, what would prevent them, once we let them through the chokepoint, of destroying the road. Yes - we could take out their warrior, and rebuild the road, but that would take time at a point when time is critical.

I'm going to use - a city is imminent argument. I will draft it up, and then we can have another discussion if this is what we REALLY want to do.

	07-01-2003 23:33									#182
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I don't want to let them through at all

(and I don't really think we should)

Jon Miller

	07-01-2003 23:49									#183
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I agree, if I understand the situation correctly.

	08-01-2003 00:08									#184
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound I'm going to use - a city is imminent argument. I will draft it up, and then we can have another discussion if this is what we REALLY want to do.

Well, I for one, REALLY believe that having a city on the choke-point is mandatory and should be of the highest priority. Without a city present, we have no firm claim on the area and they could place a city before us in the region and demand that our warriors leave their territory....so I see no need for an additional discussion concerning this, since having a city there is mandatory for our survival.

	08-01-2003 02:06									#185
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Witt - I REALLY do want a city on the chokepont too.

What I was REALLY asking was if we REALLY want to take a hard-nosed stance with GS at this time. I think the concensus is building toward that. But there was an earlier view that it might not be a bad thing to do it to somewhat appease GS. We could say - "you have 10 turns to get in and look around."

But now with the potential Lux Invicta contact - no way, hosay.

Last edited by Beta on 08-01-2003 at 03:52

	08-01-2003 03:54									#186
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Ok, we're in agreeance. I too say they aren't allowed though - and let's get that city placed.

	08-01-2003 04:26									#187
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Actually Witt, I think we are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY in agreement.

This game becomes more fun every day. Wait till the various civs are really mixing it up. (damn, now I can't stop using that word.)

	08-01-2003 05:24									#188
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OK we will see what their response is. I have other questions, but that will wait until we get a response. That will dictate our next coures of action.

	08-01-2003 05:55									#189
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I'm preparing the proposed response to Lux. But I need some help here from Eli or Diss.

I have been trying to do calcs from various screen shots - including the gridded one a few turns back, and the fact that the spearmen are 2 and 3 turns away. Here is what I have. In 3 turns we can have a spearman on the sothern hill looking over the straight - that's two turns to build in The Voice, and one to get there. But- can we do that and not have The Voice fall into disorder? It will take two two turns for the spearman to get back to the Voice, and that assumes we are both there on the same turn to make contact. We may have to wait a turn for Lux.

It will take two turns for the Miller Town spearman to get to the chokepoint - which would then release the two warriors for crowd control duties. But this would have to be timed to occur before the cities hit pop 3. And that's what I need you guys to figure out.

Can I tell Lux that a unit will be there in three turns, or do we have to wait till the first spearman gets south (also 3 moves by the way), and the two warriors get back north? Do we have a window of one or two turns in which we can spare a unit to meet Lux?

The moves are easy to figure out, its the pop growth I don't have. Please advise.

	08-01-2003 07:24									#190
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Proposed letter to Lux Invicta. Comments please.

To Apocalypse, esteemed foreign affairs representative from Lux Invicta.

We have received your message in a bottle, and are replying in kind. I trust the cork held, and that some thirsty tuna did not get other ideas.

We have discussed your proposal regarding contact, and I am please to say that the The One Voice has directed me to facilitate such contact. As such, we are proposing that we meet in three turns hence. From the point of land that we can see, and have surmised that you visited, you will see two points of land on our side. They form - well - it is hard to describe - two nicely formed and rounded points - perhaps if you knew my cousin Rachel it would be easier to explain. At any rate, our unit will be on the hill on the southern point.

We would like to be there earlier - but alas - there are complications. I am merely a diplomat. The economists go on about production queues and population growth, and commanders about travel times and road bonuses - I can't make head nor tails of it. Suffice it to say, in three turns time, on the southern point.

We see great benefits to such a meeting. Being on separate landmasses, we clearly pose no threat to each other, either militarily or expansion-wise. Yet we are able to share our knowledge of technologies.

And therein lies a plus, and a minus. Our civilizations are similar, in that we are both industrious and scientific. This is good. We understand each other better. But it is also a drawback in that we have started with similar technical knowledge which limits the opportunities for trade. However, you may be on a different research path than us, and we may have discovered different things from the lesser civilizations of the world - may I use the term barbaric here.

So, we look forward to meeting your adventurer from the far shore. We genuinely feel that this is the start of a mutually-beneficial relationship between our two great civilizations and could lead to a long-lasting friendship, to say nothing of the future trade possibilities once we have both built harbors.

We look forward to your confirmation of the meeting date. My regards to your fine nation and its noble leaders.

Yours truly,

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	08-01-2003 07:50									#191
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Looks good Beta.

	08-01-2003 09:30									#192
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And, proposed response to Gathering Storm.

This is the 'lets buy another two or three turns' memo, as suggested by Eli. We would follow this one up with a too bad, so sad letter regarding the isthmus question. By then, hopefully, we will have some idea of where their capitol is, and depending on how promising the exploration looks, we can either stick to our guns or turn the two explorers around. If there is another civ on the other side of them, that would be GS' biggest fear. That we also make contact. That was my reason for asking about the culturally linked start. DOES ANYBODY KNOW? If it is on - and there is another civ on the other side - it is likely Carthage (Legoland). Haven't heard anything from them. Its late - I ramble.

In any event, Thadeus does not move, and a city goes there. Here's the letter. Comments please.

ManicStarSeed and Nathan Barclay of Gathering Storm

Greetings, dear sirs. Well, your latest note has certainly created a 'storm' of discussion at our end. Please pardon my play on words. I do not mean to make light of such weighty issues.

Now, regarding the matter of Thadeus and his position on the isthmus - well, I will be honest with you - this has generated much debate within our civilization. Please keep this quiet, we of the One Voice are often, how shall I put it, not embarassed, but rather self-conscious about our own internal discussions. As you know, we like to speak with One Voice, as is our law and our custom, and yet occasionally the way of the One Voice and our underpinnings of a free and democratic nation grate on one another. This is one of those times. So, I will need to get back to you on this point.

Some of the words you used in your recent correspondence are, frankly, alarming - 'hypocrites, distrust, destruction, and spies?' This has added to the tension surrounding our discussions. You can clearly see the dilemma we are in regarding the isthmus. You state that you respect our claim to the land in question, but then veil it in subtle threats. We did not approach you in this manner, and therefore it has caught us somewhat surprised.

While the debate continues at home regarding the isthmus - and believe me - it won't take much longer - as stern as the One Voice of the controller can be, that is nothing compared to the bite of the Head of the Senate - you may have heard his name - jon miller. He is getting quite impatient with the internal debate, and may invoke closure soon. So, I may be back to you quicker than you can say - 'One Voice, To Victory'. Sorry, bit of Vox humor there.

As I was saying, while the debate continues, I would like to reiterate a couple of key points from my previous letter. Those being that we will respect your borders and promise we will commit no acts of aggression against your nation. We are also willing to engage in discussions regarding technology trades.

And, perhaps the best news of all, we have engaged our other neighbours in a discussion regarding the possibility of sharing contact information. I hope to be back to you on this one shortly. They may be reluctant, but I like to think that I can be persuasive, and make them see the benefits of such a multi-civilization consordium.

So my dear sirs, please bear with us on this matter. I will be back to you shortly. In the meantime, if you have any comments or responses on the other aspects of our negotiations and discussions, we would be pleased to hear them. My sincerest regards to you, your leaders, and the people of your fine nation.

Yours truly,

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	08-01-2003 09:37									#193
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3 or 4 turns. Our city is still size 1 I believe. We can get there, make initial contact and move back to the city before it reaches size3.

Am I correct in where they want to meet? They are talking about the piece of land accross the strait right? We can get there in 1 or 2 turns.

	08-01-2003 10:44									#194
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this is what GS sent me (apparently their ambassadour is out)

Tech Trade Proposal
ManicStarSeed is once again out of his office at an important time, so the task of drafting a diplomatic message once again falls to me. In any case, the matter before me today is most definitely an economic one.

It occurs to me that in the heat of our concern over the exploration situation, we failed to reciprocate regarding contact information. I apologize most humbly for that oversight. As of this time, we have not been as fortunate as you in our attempts to contact other nations, and yours are the only people we have had the fortune of meeting.

In the interest of mutual prosperity, we would like to propose an exchange of knowledge. We know that you have knowledge of the working of bronze, and assume that you have been working hard to gain knowledge of how to work iron as well. It will probably not surprise you to learn that the knowledge of wheels has been a major priority in our lands. We now face a dispute in which many of our people want to develop an alphabet in order to learn how to write, but others have a misguided fear that you might use your knowledge of bronze and iron in order to attack us and feel a need to gain the same knowledge so that we could better defend ourselves.

Wisdom dictates that the two of us should not waste time duplicating our research. There are almost certainly other peoples elsewhere in the world, and if they cooperate and we do not, the situation when we and they meet could be quite unpleasant. Rather than waste time on a duplication of effort, it occurs to us that if we could arrange to obtain the defensive knowledge we need from you, we could satisfy the paranoid among us without jeopardizing our efforts toward more peaceful pursuits.

Toward that end, we would like to propose a two-stage exchange of knowledge. In the first stage, we would exchange our knowledge of wheels for your knowledge of bronze. In the second, you would agree that once we finish developing our alphabet, you will exchange your knowledge of iron for our knowledge of it. (We assure you that the alphabet will be developed with your language in mind as much as ours.) When those two stages are put together, we feel that the research effort on each side will be equal. But as a sign of trust and friendship, we are offering the more difficult knowledge in the first phase, and are offering the agreement even knowing that you will likely be able to profit from selling or trading the knowledge to the other nation you have made contact with.

Unfortunately, time for our decision is extremely short. Unless your answer arrives quickly [by our next turn], we will have to commit to a plan without knowledge of your answer, and a glorious opportunity may be lost.

By the way, I might note that some underling held up our last messenger for a long while before allowing him in to see Ambassador BetaHound. We would really appreciate it if you would give instructions to allow our emissaries to deliver their messages more quickly. [In non-roleplay terms, it would be useful if he'd turn automatic notification of new PMs on.] It is most frustrating for our messengers when they know that your ambassador is in his office but are not permitted to deliver an important message to him. Worse, there is a risk that an important opportunity may be lost simply because a message does not arrive in time.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist



note that they say they have the wheel!!!

Jon Miller

	08-01-2003 12:00									#195
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jon beat me to it. was just going to post that.

Betahound are you messages turned on?

OK this leads me to believe they already have the Wheel and are working on the alphabet.

And it also appears they do fear the forthcoming appearance of our Immortals. They want to help defend themselves with bronze working.

Anyways we must decide what we are going to do with GS. If we want them to be a long term ally I can see tech sharing. But if we intend to annhilate them then obviously trading war techs for them isn't so hot (although we will get the wheel which is one tech. away from the mobile horseman units).

	08-01-2003 14:36									#196
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we could wait to see if we have iron (but that would probably be too long)

we could say that since it is alphabet we really want we would only be interested in trading later (and we might make it 2 for 2)

I think we should make a reply to them quickly, it would be nice not to war them right now (but none of them pass the isthmus)

Jon Miller

	08-01-2003 15:53									#197
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I'm very concerned with the Iron problem. We have only 8 "Iron likely" tiles in our certain control, and statistically this is simply not enough.

After building the chokepoint city and maybe another one on the grasslands south to the chokepoint we MUST settle the two mountain ridges on the east and west coasts of Southern Estonia.

	08-01-2003 18:15									#198
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Good morning guys.

Yes - my PM notification is on. I'm not sure what he is talking about. The note came in Sunday just before noon according to the PM log. Soon as I saw it, it was out to you. I was out and about that day, so I may have missed it. But I am sure I was logged in during the day. I got notification that evening and had it on the forum by 10:00 (my time - EST).

Looks to me like they are concerned that their first note was a bit hawkish, that we didn't cave in right away, and now they want to deal.

I will clearly need to modify my proposed response. I still want to get something out today. I will lighten it up a bit, to correspond to their lightened mood, but we need to discuss the tech trading stuff more. And I don't want to say no right now to the isthmus thing. We can get a second letter to them tomorrow.

Any other comments on the Lux or GS letters?

And Eli - I can concur with your resource assessment. I too was assuming we would have to 'claim' the nothern portion of South Estonia.

	08-01-2003 22:54									#199
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Ok - the Lux response just went to Apocalypse pretty much as it was above. I'm now revisiting the GS response in light of their latest communication.

	08-01-2003 22:54									#200
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An excerpt from the letter sent to Jon:

quote: Unfortunately, time for our decision is extremely short. Unless your answer arrives quickly [by our next turn], we will have to commit to a plan without knowledge of your answer, and a glorious opportunity may be lost.

This is what caught my attention....what do they (GS) mean by this? Is it a thinly veiled threat that they are thinking of attacking our warrior and taking the chokepoint (their "Plan")? Why whould this "glorious opportunity" be lost - unless they are planning on a surprise attack?

	08-01-2003 22:57									#201
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I am sorry if I sound paraniod...but after being an Intelligence Analyst in the Army for 20+ years, I guess it's just second nature for me to read between the lines.

	08-01-2003 23:04									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich An excerpt from the letter sent to Jon: This is what caught my attention....what do they (GS) mean by this? Is it a thinly veiled threat that they are thinking of attacking our warrior and taking the chokepoint (their "Plan")? Why whould this "glorious opportunity" be lost - unless they are planning on a surprise attack?

I also think they are thinking of going to war

Jon Miller

	08-01-2003 23:15									#203
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It does seem weird. But the entire letter they talk about tech trading. But that could be to throw us off. I can double up the warriors for now. Until we can get a spearman or whatever.

	08-01-2003 23:17									#204
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OK you guys are on line. I just loaded the turn and they have the tech proposal on the board. Response?

	08-01-2003 23:17									#205
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They offered us The Wheel. I cancelled the trading screen because there was nothing to do.

	08-01-2003 23:19									#206
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Eek, who's playing?

Diss, in any case I reccomend you to get on ICQ now.

	08-01-2003 23:21									#207
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Here is my final response just sent to GS.

Yes - I would suggest doubling up on warriors.

I took their message to mean they have to pick a new tech to research next turn. And I think they may be desperate. If they have not met anyone else and we have, they know we have bronze and soon iron, and we have the geographic advantage of the isthmus for defence - so they are either trying to make nice, and get our two key techs, or they are bluffing and will come at us with some kind of early rush. Hmmmm...

Here was my response - a big pile of words that doesn't say much.

ManicStarSeed and Nathan Barclay of Gathering Storm

Greetings, dear sirs. Well, your previous note has certainly created a 'storm' of discussion at our end. (Please pardon my play on words. I do not mean to make light of such weighty issues.) And I must admit, your latest letter has calmed the waters somewhat.

Now, regarding the matter of Thadeus and his position on the isthmus - well, I will be honest with you - this has generated much debate within our civilization. Please keep this quiet, we of the One Voice are often, how shall I put it, not embarassed, but rather self-conscious about our own internal discussions. As you know, we like to speak with One Voice, as is our law and our custom, and yet occasionally the way of the One Voice and our underpinnings of a free and democratic nation grate on one another. This is one of those times. So, I will need to get back to you on this point.

Some of the words you used in your recent correspondence are, frankly, alarming - 'hypocrites, distrust, destruction, and spies?' This has added to the tension surrounding our discussions. You can clearly see the dilemma we are in regarding the isthmus. You state that you respect our claim to the land in question, but then veil it in subtle threats. We did not approach you in this manner, and therefore it has caught us somewhat surprised.

While the debate continues at home regarding the isthmus - and believe me - it won't take much longer - as stern as the One Voice of the controller can be, that is nothing compared to the bite of the Head of the Senate - you may have heard his name - jon miller. He is getting quite impatient with the internal debate, and may invoke closure soon. So, I may be back to you quicker than you can say - 'One Voice, To Victory'. Sorry, bit of Vox humor there.

As I was saying, while the debate continues, I would like to reiterate a couple of key points from my previous letter. Those being that we will respect your borders and promise we will commit no acts of aggression against your nation. We are also willing to engage in discussions regarding technology trades, the exact point you raised in your more recent - and if I may add - more peaceful letter.

(As a side note, if schizophrenia is a common problem in your society, we may be able to assist. Our physicians have made great strides in dealing with such matters here at home. With a nation which endeavours to speak with one voice, we really didn't have much choice.)

Your proposals regarding tech trading are indeed intriguing. We also appreciate the time constraints involved at your end. There is an emergency discussion session planned for this evening - right after the isthmus debate - to determine our position.

And, perhaps the best news of all, we have engaged our other neighbours in a discussion regarding the possibility of sharing contact information. I hope to be back to you on this one shortly. They may be reluctant, but I like to think that I can be persuasive, and make them see the benefits of such a multi-civilization consordium.

So my dear sirs, please bear with us on these matter. I will be back to you shortly. My sincerest regards to you, your leaders, and the people of your fine nation.

Yours truly,

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	09-01-2003 03:11									#208
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Nicely worded Beta. Hopefully it will buy us a little time (but knowing GS, probably not much).

	09-01-2003 04:17									#209
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OK this response is good. But getting out of date . Go ahead and send it out if you haven't already.

But in a new response which I do want to get to them before they play their turn. I would like it to be known we are willing to discuss our exploration agreement (point #1) some more. And would like to come to a compromise. Also let them know that even though we do want to come to some trade agreement for technology the wheel just doesn't interest us at this moment.

Basically I don't want them to do anything hasty.

	09-01-2003 04:48									#210
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Here's an e-mail I got from Lux. I sent them a PM and e-mail to make sure they have someone waiting.

We have a unit on the very far coast right now waiting... sooner the
better
please.