06-01-2003 11:34									#151
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we could let them move their warrior up through there (repecting territorial boundaries as we are)- but no settlers.

This would be the only fair thing to do. We must appease them until we found our city there. It would be nice to get quick respons from the team before we play our next turn. If we all agree, I can back the warrior up one square and keep an eye on their warrior.

Last edited by Dis on 06-01-2003 at 12:25

	06-01-2003 12:21									#152
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this is going to be close

we have to keep from being pushed arround too far, but also not go to war

this will be delicate (And if they get past the choke point, they will know we lied about talking to others!!!)

Eli, anyone else, how long before we get another settler?

Jon Miller

	06-01-2003 12:23									#153
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wait, we might have enough territory that they will think that there is land to the north (that our 'continent' extends farther than it does)

Jon Miller

	06-01-2003 12:26									#154
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yes Jon, our two cities should prevent them from seeing the northern part of our continent. As long as they respect our borders that is.

At this point I vote to move our warrior back and let 1 of their warriors past.

	06-01-2003 12:29									#155
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And if we could write a response back to them.

We could point out in our response that we are crowded in (which is true in a way), and we do not have much land north of the chokepoint. So we will let their warrior explore that small patch of land and leave. Make it be known due to our small patch of land we do wish to settle the chokepoint soon. It seems in their respons they conceded our right to settle there- which is good. And we can state that we just wanted to stage our warrior there for our city site.

Or something like that .

	06-01-2003 14:32									#156
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Tell them to go jump in a lake and face and early war (that we're not prepared to fight), or let their one - and I do mean one - warrior though to have a look around. Tuff call. But with our current situation, I say to let their 1 warrior through as an act of good faith....now we need to get out southern most warrior down to their land to look around too.

	06-01-2003 17:50									#157
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Both cities are building a spearman now. I guess that when it's ready they'll start with settlers.

If they are allowed to see our land they will understand how lousy our starting position is. That might be a problem.

	06-01-2003 18:46									#158
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Well - I agree to some degree with all the comments made to-date. Especially the one about jumping in the lake.

If we do let one warrior through - we would need their promise that they not enter our territory. That would at least leave them in the dark about the land north of us and possible contact with another civ, as jon has mentioned.

However, they may be bluffing, and may simply break that promise and continue north. Then what are our options - kill him - or let him go.

The questions are-

1.)what will they do if we don't move Thadeus. Will they actually go after our first two warriors?

2.) what do we gain and lose by not letting them pass. Other than p***ing them off. And I don't think GS is a team that will be ruled by emotion. There are two many good players on the team. And that means trying to win favors, or stay on their good side will be meaningless as well. When they need to do something to win the game, they will. And they won't think twice about squashing a neighbour if need be.

So - that being said - what does letting them through gain for us. Not much as far as I can see. I can appreciate the point about trying to appear meek, until immortals are available. But again, they know the facts, and the therat we may pose. Our diplomatic stance will likely mean very little to them.

As Eli pointed out - our start was not fabulous, but the one geographic advantage we have is the chokepoint. I for one would hate to give that up early.

Let me ask you this - if the roles were reversed, what do you think GS would do?

	06-01-2003 22:56									#159
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If I was GS I would attack unless Vox withdrew their troops from outside their cities (I do think we are getting close to their boundaries)

I do think they will respect our territory boundaries- just remind them of that agreement- as we will not pass through theirs.

We can move our warrios back to block any attempt at passage through our territory. And by block I mean attack them if they set foot in our territory.

Do we need to take a vote on it? I say we let their one warrior in. And make it clear that any intrusion on our land will be viewed as a hostile action and will be responded to.

Last edited by Dis on 06-01-2003 at 23:01

	06-01-2003 23:10									#160
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We should let that single warrior in.

	06-01-2003 23:13									#161
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But stall it.

Tell them we are discussing the issue, and let's stall for another 3-4 turns.

	06-01-2003 23:15									#162
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Diss - good points.

The question I am asking is - if GS were us, and they controlled the chokepoint, would they let us through?

I'm suspecting they would not.

But I will go with the team on this one.

The one plus to giving in is how it will look. What I mean is - we tried to act tough - they didn't buy it - we back down and give up our geographic advantage. Therefore, they think we are somewhat scared of upsetting them - after all, they are Gathering Storm. We would appear meek from the get go.

This may help give us an advantage of surprise when we really need it - ie in about 40 turns.

The other point which would need to be made to them- is that we are considering it for a city site. What do we do when we plunk a city down there and their warrior is still north of the chokepoint?

What happens if they ask us not to put a city there, as it effectively closes it off? If we would tell them to jump in the lake on that point- why don't we do it now, and keep them guessing on our starting position.

My first choice is still to say no.

	06-01-2003 23:24									#163
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Eli - yes, if the decision is to let them through - one only - and yes we stall.

But I still say no. Build a city there - build walls. And then expand south with Immortals to ensure our well being.

	06-01-2003 23:53									#164
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Interesting points Beta. I for one do not like letting their warrior through...but if it wil delay a hostile outbrake...but then again, a question that needs to be asked: Is GS ready for war? I don't think so. We could save face an inform them that our warriors (yes, put 2 of them there) cannot move because our settler is on its way to settle a city on that loaction, and if we allow their warrior through, the warrior will be stuck behind our lines. How does that reasoning sound?

	07-01-2003 00:25									#165
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I agree Witt. I don't think they are ready for war. And the rationale about a city going up there makes sense, even if it is a few turns away.

I believe they realize we have a geographic advantage here and they are trying to bluff their way in.

	07-01-2003 00:59									#166
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Exactly my same thought.

	07-01-2003 01:02									#167
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I believe you should tell them that a city will be founded on the location in question and if we let the warrior in, he will be stuck within our empire - so our warriors cannot move from the current future city location.

	07-01-2003 03:12									#168
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yes, tell them that we are founding a city there in a few turns

and that the narrowness of the isthmus disallows more exploration into the norther continent

Jon Miller

	07-01-2003 03:29									#169
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OK. I will draft up something this evening for everyone's review. I don't think we should feel rushed to respond. But I do want to keep the lines of communication open.

	07-01-2003 13:39									#170
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yeah I see your point about image. And yes the geographic advantage is nice, but that may be asking too much. because I'm suspecting soon we will approach their cities and we will know how good their land is. So we can say the playing field is even on that regard.

and we let them know we are building the city there. They seem to concede in their post above that we are going to build our city there. We will give them advance warning to get their warrior out. If they don't- well that will put us in a weird position. As he isn't that much of a threat- but he could still spy.

	07-01-2003 13:44									#171
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OK I just finished reading the recent responses. Which position were you going to adopt?

I didn't think of the build the city in a few turns ruse. Although they may notice that we actually don't build a city in a few turns. I'm not sure how they will handle that.

As for prepared for war. Assuming close research rates, we will be ready for war almost simultaneously- depending on strategic resource distances. We should discover our first techs close to each other (iron working, the wheel), and we both need to connect to a strategic resource to build our uu's.

	07-01-2003 18:14									#172
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AND now it gets really interesting. We have received a PM from Lux Invicta about making contact over the straight of land, as per my earlier suggestion. They confirm that it is possible if two units can see each other.

This will mean that we can say we weren't lying to GS about contacting another civ. But I am even less willing now to allow GS through. If we do, they will also contact Lux, and we could lose the advantage of tech trades and future trades when harbors are built. Also - we will not be in immediate competition with them for land - although that top part of the neighbouring peninsula would have been nice.

We need to figure out how to get a warrior over there (the SW corner of North Estonia) asap. Are we comfortable leaving Thadeus there by himself until a spearman shows up. If not - do we want to wait for one of the spearman to make contact - I would prefer sooner. Do we want to convert one of the spearmen in the queues to a warrior (not sure if we can do this without losing shields) to get someone there earlier, and still allow a doubling up on the chokepoint.

Here is Lux's message:

Message in a bottle from Luxia!!!
Message in a bottle

Greetings Foreigners, We people of Luxia salutes you. Our warrior have been reporting signs of civilization on the distant land overseas, but as of now, we do not have the technology to send a galley to cross the channel and land on the other side of the sea. We see your magnificent empire and signs of fire for cooking, but no people have been spotted from where we are. Therefore we place this message in a bottle and dump it into the sea in hopes that your people may collect it from the other side. Our warrior also noticed the two lands are within distance not too far from being able to yell and be heard. (we can establish contact if we can both see units) I urge you, should you get this message, send one of your people down Southwest of your border so that our people and your people can conduct diplomacy by yelling at each other from where they are. This establishment of contact will prove to be well worth the time for both of our nations. We hope to grow rich and powerful (just as you will enjoy our riches) by trading with you in the upcoming future.

Oh and in addition, here are the lists of Official ambassador of the Lux Invicta(as of now):

Trip
Calc II
AdmiralPJ
Apocalypse (official ambassdor for your people)
Aleion (waiting to be officially appointed)
CIverdan (waiting to be officially appointed)

Apocalypse will especialize in handling matters between our people and yours. But you are always welcomed to contact myself, Trip or other ambassadors at any time.

I hope we hear from you soon!

	07-01-2003 18:58									#173
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I sent this quick reply back to Lux for now. We should get back to them in more detail quickly.

Esteemed Calc II of the famed nation of Lux Invicta. Greetings.

We have received your message in a bottle. Thank-you. There was some seaweed and scum, but the message was very readable.

Your proposals greatly interest us. We too had been discussing the possibility of meeting people across the straight. We had a warrior positioned there earlier but he has moved on to explore other regions of the world. The potential to trade technologies between our two civilizations greatly interests us.

I will respond in more detail later today. As per your message, I will direct my response in a bottle to Apocalypse. If you would be so kind as to forward this quick message to him, it would be appreciated.

Sincerest regards,
BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	07-01-2003 19:30									#174
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Great timing! So now we didn't lie to GS about contacting other civs.

Concerning the choke-point/future city site - I say get two units fortified there. It would be nice to have a spearman present, but if we can get 2 warriors there for now, it will (hopefully) suffice.

How many turns until our next settler is ready?

	07-01-2003 20:12									#175
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2 turns until the spearman in The Voice is ready, and another ~5-7 turns from there.

	07-01-2003 20:40									#176
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So what's the preference then -

Option 1. New spearman to the chokepont, warrior to SW corner of North Estonia to greet LI and then back to The Voice to maintain order. (need to hook up that luxury soon )

or

Option 2. Spearman to the sw corner of North Estonia to greet LI, and then he continues on to the chokepoint. Warrior then goes to the Voice to maintain order.


I like 1. Bit slower meeting LI, but protects the chokepoint. Road to the chokepoint should help.

I can explain to LI that we have someone on the move to that point. We can give them an exact time that our warrior, or spearman depending on the option, will be there. Which means they do not have to have somebody standing around.

	07-01-2003 20:55									#177
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Note that a second spearman will be ready in City #2 3 turns from now.

	07-01-2003 21:01									#178
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Eli - can we have screen shots please. I would like to see what the southern part looks like. If there hasn't been anything new pop up, save your time until next move. Thanks.

And I guess with the second spearman, we now have a few more options as to how to do things.

I suggest bringing a warrior up after the spearman gets to the chokepoint. The warrior will be useful in the future for disorder control. Better to use a warrior than a spearman.

	07-01-2003 23:08									#179
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very good that lux is over there

they don'tneed to fear our imortals and so can be tech trading partners

Jon Miller

	07-01-2003 23:10									#180
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note (after looking at the map), Lux says southwest, but they don't know what our continent looks like. It is actually due west of our capitol. So when we get a spearman out we will use that.

And what about GS. Did we draft a response to them? They aren't going to like not being able to get through. And may ask us to leave their are- or face going to war. I'd like to think they don't want to go to war this early, but remember who is on their team. They know their advantage of winning is to occupy the entire continent.