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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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The opposition (and Fez) seem to ignore a little thing called constitutionality. What Latin America needs, above all else, is respect for the constitution of the state, so that regimes come and go with regularity and peace. The constituion states that there can be a referendum, in 8 months. What the opposition should be doing is getting ready for that campaign, not doing what it is doing now.
Chavez was elected, and he was elected for a reason: the previous Venezuelan goverments had failed the people badly. I don't doubt Chavez currently unpopular, but SO WHAT? low approval does not allow one to try to overthrow the state. Does anyone think (well, besides Fez) that the opposition, given the decades of pre-Chavez failure would actually fix the problems of the state? If the opposition wins now: then when it comes to power, and fails as well, does that mean the Chavistas can come an try to overthrow that government?
What Latin America needs is a stance for Constitutionalism. As someone said, in 1946 Gaitan was murdered in Colombia. 46 years and over 100,000 lives later, the political issues of Colombia has not been resolved. I hope the Venezuelan oposition gets a clue.
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El León
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Wisconsin
Sep 2002
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Three million? Source. |
Eyewitnesses. There is also a nice video called "the battle for Chile" with nice images of the demonstration. Count the people and tell me. Oops. You're right. They were 2,992,123 - but the exact number is irrelevant.
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Also may I bring up a fact, Chile is much better off today than it was with that soviet pig dog. |
Indeed. What happened to intelligence? Manners? Education?
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Where did you get this from? I happened to visit Chile on several dozen occasions. And I don't see any of this. |
What, do you think they show off for foreigners? I got if from Chileans, of course. It even made the news because the supermarkets complained and you are quite welcome to look for it.
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You are pathetic and misstating my beliefs. If you really want something done, let my country run Latin America again. |
Now, now, calling me pathetic is quite ad hominem, don't you think? And I thought I read something about personal insults.  The US sTILL runs the show, be reassured.
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You have failed in providing me anything to work with. |
Nevertheless you managed to do quite alot with it. But you missed the main point - what you are advocating is not conservatism or capitalism, for that matter.
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Mind I ask, do you work for the PRI? |
Um, let me think... Insults again? Are we out of arguments again? Just ask, I think I help you do a much better job of defending capitalism, US policy in Latin America, conservatism.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by El Leon
Eyewitnesses. There is also a nice video called "the battle for Chile" with nice images of the demonstration. Count the people and tell me. Oops. You're right. They were 2,992,123 - but the exact number is irrelevant. |
Allende is dead I hate to break it to you. And the current economic system is highly favorable amongst the Chilean population.
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Indeed. What happened to intelligence? Manners? Education? |
Chile today is much better off than it was with the Soviet-influenced Allende regime.
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What, do you think they show off for foreigners? I got if from Chileans, of course. It even made the news because the supermarkets complained and you are quite welcome to look for it. |
Where? Stop speaking without sources. By the way I go to Chile regularly so I know what the situation is like. Chile is in really good shape. Hopefully people like you won't screw it up.
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Now, now, calling me pathetic is quite ad hominem, don't you think? And I thought I read something about personal insults. The US sTILL runs the show, be reassured. |
You are a DL, I never seen you around here before. DL alert. Whose is it this time?
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Nevertheless you managed to do quite alot with it. But you missed the main point - what you are advocating is not conservatism or capitalism, for that matter. |
Yes it is. It is capitalism.
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Um, let me think... Insults again? Are we out of arguments again? Just ask, I think I help you do a much better job of defending capitalism, US policy in Latin America, conservatism. |
You do not have any idea how to defend yourself. No wonder... can you actually challange me in any way while I defend the Chilean model you so much hate? Do you hate wealth? If you really hate wealth, go live in a cave. The problem with other Latin American countries is wealth is not generated. The governments are corrupt and not transparent. The Chilean Government is the only transparent government in Latin America.
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El León
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Wisconsin
Sep 2002
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Chile today is much better off than it was with the Soviet-influenced Allende regime. |
Scientific method - we do not know the consequences unless the act happened. Allende's government, scientifically speaking, may have ended well. But we would not know that, now would we.
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You are a DL, I never seen you around here before. DL alert. Whose is it this time? |
 Mira, no te has dado cuenta que tú eres el único otro posteador de Apolyton? Yo no soy un DL, soy 100,000 
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Yes it is. It is capitalism. |
Not Adam Smith's, not the one promoted in the French Revolution... You are decidedly protectionist, not free market. I guess you are conservative, after all.
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You do not have any idea how to defend yourself. No wonder... can you actually challange me in any way while I defend the Chilean model you so much hate? Do you hate wealth? If you really hate wealth, go live in a cave. The problem with other Latin American countries is wealth is not generated. The governments are corrupt and not transparent. The Chilean Government is the only transparent government in Latin America. |
Can I get one little source? Just a tiny one? Have I attacked the Chilean model? Do you read the posts or just react to them? All I said is that the method is wrong.
Welath has been generated in Mexico, look at the Forbes list. And Brazil. And transparency would be nice in the US also, I agree.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Fez: you antics in other threads have shown what an idiot you are, nor do you know what a dictator is (having never lived under one, no matter how weak). |
Yes I have. I have lived under one. In Ecuador. A military junta. Not to mention I almost got hit by tear gas and rubber bullets when I was trying to get to a supermarket. I got caught between two crowds, one of the crowds rioters and the other soldiers and police officers. So tell me something I don't know pinhead.
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Chavez was elected by the people of Venezuela. If the people of Venezuela want him out, then await the next election, as mandated by the constitution of the country. If and when the next egal elections come, and Chavez losses, and refuses to step dwn: that it the time at which he has become a dictator. At any point before that, no matter how unpopular, he remains the democratically elected leader of the state. |
Chavez needs to call early elections.
Also that is not how the way things are runned in Latin America. Here, if they do not like the guy in power they throw him out. That simple. The constitution is far to weak as it probably has been modified by the president himself to suit his own needs.
Sorry your entire argument collapsed on itself.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by El Leon
Scientific method - we do not know the consequences unless the act happened. Allende's government, scientifically speaking, may have ended well. But we would not know that, now would we. |
Allende's government would of never ended well as it overbloated the government.
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Mira, no te has dado cuenta que tú eres el único otro posteador de Apolyton? Yo no soy un DL, soy 100,000 |
DL, DL, DL, DL, DL, DL, DL, DL!
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Not Adam Smith's, not the one promoted in the French Revolution... You are decidedly protectionist, not free market. I guess you are conservative, after all. |
I am pro-free market, whereas you are a Stalinist.
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Can I get one little source? Just a tiny one? Have I attacked the Chilean model? Do you read the posts or just react to them? All I said is that the method is wrong. |
The Chilean Model is correct.
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Welath has been generated in Mexico, look at the Forbes list. |
Yup, and transferred to Swiss Bank accounts. Don't get me wrong but I hate corruption. If you really want to build up infrastructure and with that increase incomes embrace the Chilean model.
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And Brazil. And transparency would be nice in the US also, I agree. |
Transparency is readily apparent in the US.
In Brazil, transparency is readily needed.
In Mexico, bloated government is a major problem. As goes for Argentina. Did you know where the average person makes $200-$400 (pesos), a senator makes over $200,000 (pesos)?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Yes I have. I have lived under one. In Ecuador. A military junta. Not to mention I almost got hit by tear gas and rubber bullets when I was trying to get to a supermarket. I got caught between two crowds, one of the crowds rioters and the other soldiers and police officers. So tell me something I don't know pinhead.
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 A military junta in Ecuador in the last 18 years.... well, next time don't go out to shop during a time of crisis: it good advice.
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Chavez needs to call early elections.
Also that is not how the way things are runned in Latin America. Here, if they do not like the guy in power they throw him out. That simple. The constitution is far to weak as it probably has been modified by the president himself to suit his own needs.
Sorry your entire argument collapsed on itself. |
Ohh Fez....
If constitutions in Latin America are weak, it is because of the very thing you are demanding: until people start listening to the consituion, it will remain weak. And yes, Chavez did change the constituion, within constitutional bounds: which is allowed, just look at the constitution of any state, none are set in stone. So no, my argument does not fall apart. It remain nice and solid: The solution to Latin America's political instability ois solid constitutionalism, and the Venezuelan opposition is currently part of the problem. If Chavez is so unpopular, then in august, he would surely loose. BUt there is nothing in the constituion that allows for elections earlier than that.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
A military junta in Ecuador in the last 18 years.... well, next time don't go out to shop during a time of crisis: it good advice. |
So that tells you I have seen Latin American politics at its best. And almost got shot in the process.
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If constitutions in Latin America are weak, it is because of the very thing you are demanding: until people start listening to the consituion, it will remain weak. |
Actually no. It is because of the terrible corruption in the governments, and the governments usual bypassing of the constitution that is so readily apparent in Latin America.
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So no, my argument does not fall apart. It remain nice and solid: |
No, it fell apart. Yes it is solid, as mud.
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The solution to Latin America's political instability ois solid constitutionalism, and the Venezuelan opposition is currently part of the problem. |
No... the solution to Latin America's political instability is a complete economic turn around.
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If Chavez is so unpopular, then in august, he would surely loose. BUt there is nothing in the constituion that allows for elections earlier than that. |
He can call for early elections to prevent the crisis from being prolonged. At least businesses will start up again. If I were Chavez, I would call for early elections.
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
What is needed is strong rule by the fist...and transparency. |
Classic!
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JCG
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between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:24
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Fez: For the love of whatever you care about, try and stop making such a fool of yourself so often. Stop hitting your head against brick walls! (and vice versa)
Back to Venezuela....
While it's strikingly clear that the fiercest supporters of Chavez are predominantly from the low classes, and that the opposition has the rich as its visible head, from the looks of things the middle classes are very diverse in their opinions.
It seems that the division in Venezuela is much closer to 40% vs 60 % (either way), than either a total support or a total opposition against Chavez. That makes the crisis all the more unpredictable.
(And all the more funny all the "out-of-range"
pro/anti-Chavez statements one reads in these forums. )
While I don't sympathize with Chavez, I don't hold any special hatred towards him. But I believe he has been highly unable to take care of the situation. He won't fall, but living in a permanent state of tension will make the rest of his term utterly impaired anyway.
Gepap:
Constitutions are often changed in Latin America, as you know Chavez himself changed his own. If the opposition was rational and patient, they'd push for the equivalent of a new constitution or a constitutional amendment.
The opposition certainly will not make the situation better, that's why Chavez should stay in power until his legal exit, but I doubt the circumstances will allow him to make any lasting changes, once he's out.
Constitutionalism....such a thing will probably never fully develop in most of Latin America. There is too much corruption, supported by colonial exploitation structures that the Spanish so eagerly installed, and that today remain in place.
PS: Chavez is not a dictator, just a populist. Which isn't necessarily a bad/good thing....Depends.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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A few things:
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Actually no. It is because of the terrible corruption in the governments, and the governments usual bypassing of the constitution that is so readily apparent in Latin America. |
How does thin disprove the fact that NOT following the constitution is the probem? All you say is that usually the offender has been the government. I would agree with that. But if bypassing the constitution is a problem, then it would be equaly as bad for the opostition of the government to do it?
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No... the solution to Latin America's political instability is a complete economic turn around. |
And how does a politically unstable state do so? Lets take your wonderboy, Pinochet. The first thing he had to do to gain foreign investment and local investment was to create a politically stable situation. He did so dictatorially. Now, you and the opposition claim that the problem is Chavez is being dictatorial: well, if being dictatorial is the problem, then the solution must be democratic, no? But for it to be trully democratic, it must be constitutional, since democracy can't work without solid constitutionalism. By demanding uncosntitutional actions, you are being anti-demoicratic, without any plans to create political stability.
Prosperity in Latin America come aftre Political stability, not before. Anything that damages political stability hurts Latin American economic prospects. THe opposition is doing far more harm than good to Venezuela.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:24
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in the need for an election, yes, in the need for a right wing military junta (shockingly enough), no.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Ok, Gepap I do see your point with political stability. It is needed for investment. But...
Then they should leave the government to continue committing violations of the consititution and not do anything about it? The Chavez government didn't even listen to the courts anymore. |
I have seen no evidence presented that the Chavez government has ignored the rulings of the courts. It like the claim, prior to the April coup, that Chavez was attacking the press: the OAS did a study, and they found no validity to those claims that the Chavez government was attacking the press. I have seem no reports of the government ignoring court rulings.
The oppostion simply has gone too far: it is one thing to protest to demand changes in policy, and to bring legal chalanges to the president's policies. It is another thing to demand the colapse of a democratically elected government and violations fo the constitution. Such acts breed violence and political chaos. Chavez is in power, again, for a reason: because a sector of Venezuela wants him in power. They won the elections last time. If they ared enied their rightful say, why should they see as legitimate any future government?
El Leon:
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Stalinist? Well, Fez you are a Friedmanist! : |
Latin America needs no more "Chicago Boys".
Oh, and the rules of Poly don't appreciate too much espanol (dammit, I can never get special characters to work!)
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18-12-2002 22:26
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