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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
If you take a look at Alternet it is has way less crediblity than the conservative opposite, Townhall. And it is radically leftist. |
Not that I think Alternet is the paragon of reliable reporting and/or views, but I'm curious what you are basing that statement on. Is it another of your "if I think it's a pack of leftist lies, it is - end of discussion" arguements?
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Not trying to start any argument here. I just am not gonna trust Alternet because it doesn't coincide with my own views. If you wanna accept it go ahead and do so. |
And therein lies one of your biggest problems.
I don't necessarily accept what Alternet says, and obviously it is a left-leaning site. But to just dismiss everything that goes against your personal views is remarkably ingnorant and shows a completely closed mind and unwillingness to learn and grow.
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:24
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To go back to Venezuela
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...1215EST0119.DTL
San Francisco Chronicle
quote:
Chavez's popularity has plunged since his 1998 election and 2000 re-election, but still enjoys some of the highest approval ratings among Latin American leaders, according to VenEconomy magazine. His base is Venezuela's poor, who comprise 80 percent of its 24 million people.
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just quoted the last paragraph, as we know the rest.
next one
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaki...10405-6515r.htm
quote:
Some businesses in anti-Chavez areas closed their doors when the strike began, though the poor, pro-Chavez areas continue to function normally. Now that the strike is in its third week, businesses that initially joined the strike have opened their doors, but are having trouble maintaining inventory. Lines formed as grocery stores and bakeries, where semi-bare shelves and empty refrigerators showed the effects of a 19-day-work stoppage.
The opposition has held marches almost every day of the strike, parading through the streets clad in Venezuela's yellow-blue-and-red patriotic colors and singing popular Venezuelan songs filled out with anti-Chavez lyrics. Each night at 8, opposition sympathizers take to the streets banging pots and pans and shouting. Chavez supporters have similar protests two hours later.
Opposition leaders are demanding that Chavez either resign or call early elections as the country faces an increasing political conflict that has left more than 70 people dead this year. Chavez, a left-wing former paratrooper who led a failed coup in 1992, won landslide elections in 1998 and again in 2000 on a campaign to rebuild the country's institutions and redistribute the country's $50 billion in annual petroleum income.
This has created conflict with the middle and upper classes, which accuse Chavez of dividing the country along class lines and creating hatred between different groups. Lower classes say that Chavez has prioritized in health care and education for the poor, which they say no other president has done.
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Don't forget that lower classes constitute 80% of the population so it is not a suprise he won landslide victories twice. However the remaining 20% is still al lot especially as they pretty much control the oil industry.
I am just wandering how did the redistribution of wealth create hatered among classes. Perhaps upper classes don't like to be taxed so much and they hate the lower class even more  .
Btw.. the supreme court ordered the strike to stop as well, however the "opposition" refuses.
Some of Chavezes sins
quote:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/849768.asp?0cv=NB10
POLARIZING FIGURE
Above and beyond the constitutional issues, the debate in Venezuela revolves around the polarizing figure of Hugo Chavez, the soldier-turned-populist politician who was elected president in 1998.
In a country where at least two-thirds of the population struggles along below the official poverty line, the former paratrooper offered hope of a better future.
Chavez vowed to disassemble the power structure in Venezuela, a lucrative and cozy alliance between the business elite, elements of the military and the Catholic Church and the international oil oligarchy.
He promised jobs and an economic structure that would extend the beneficiaries of Venezuela’s bountiful patrimony, its 77 billion barrels of proven oil reserves.
COURTING CONTROVERSY
Meantime, Chavez also courted controversy with Venezuela’s erstwhile close ally, the United States — a major customer for its oil and once a close ally.
The president showered praise on Cuban leader Fidel Castro, his best friend in the region, while paying respects to two other Washington foes, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and Libyan leader Moammar Ghadaffi, during state visits in 2000.
Moreover, Chavez broke with the regional consensus by publicly fraternizing with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, the leftist group that has been designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department.
Overall, his behavior has shaped a U.S. stance that has progressed from quiet tolerance to undisguised animosity under the administration of President Bush.
In April, Washington was accused of abandoning its democratic principles by swiftly heralding a new Venezuelan leadership created by a coup. Chavez was reinstalled after the takeover collapsed.
And this month, the White House appeared to side with the opposition by calling for early elections in Venezuela.
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Of course the opposition says they are concerned about the economy. - However they cannot wait until next elections (as if Chavez is not going to give them)  - at teh moment there he accepts a referendum in August 2003, so too long to wait. The economy will collapse until than? Don't think so.
and a Pakistani link 
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/defaul...5-12-2002_pg4_2
quote:
“If we have to bring in technicians from other countries, they will come,” said Chavez, whose government is under intense pressure from a 12-day-old general strike staged in support of demands for his resignation. The leftist-populist president said he would not hesitate to fire 80 percent of managers and technical staff of Petroleos de Venezuela if that proves necessary to jumpstart the stalled state oil company.
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JCG
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between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:24
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Chavez isn't going to be in power forever, whatever happens. Thus a long term, lasting Venezuelan civil war is rather out of the question, for now.
And well, it's not just the obviously filthy rich that would have to give up a good share of their money, but also the middle classes, who don't have that much more to begin with.
You can't get out of this, unless you completely expropiate the rich outright, but Chavez is nowhere near close to that, as far as I can tell.
If the economy is bad, and the government is trying to tax both the middle and upper classes even further, obviously you can't expect them to sit down quietly for an indefinite amount of time with no reasonable improvements.
Nor have the poor received a huge and permanent benefit from Chavez's policies, thus it's likely that even that support isn't absolute.
Still, nobody in Venezuela is going to get anywhere with the current unflexible stances and unreasonable demands coming from the opposition. If Chavez doesn't slip, he'll eventually go through (at least until his term ends).
Whether that will be a good or bad thing, time will tell....
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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The reason I fear a civil war is simply because the divide seems to have gotten too deep. The poor have supported Chavez, but even their support has waned somewhat since he hasn't been able to deliver fast enough on his redistribution policies (whether that's even possible is pretty debatable). Obviously the wealthy and middle classes are going to and have opposed the very notion, and are now rather vehemently opposing and actions in that regard. I don't think you can blame Chavez for for the conflict, or at least you certainly can't place all the blame on him. It's clear the masses want change and the elite don't. Calling an early election or replacing Chavez outright aren't necessarily going to do anything to address this situation.
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El León
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Wisconsin
Sep 2002
time: 23:24
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OK well then, Chávez is "left-wing." So I guess we could call the Mexican PRI dictatorhsip left-wing as well.
It's a sad day for the political spectrum when it has been pushed so far right that Chávez looks left wing. 
BTW, maybe there is some reason that doesn't make this  -ically simple, but the dictatorship thesis seems pretty weak - Why would you want to become at dictator when your popularity is at a low, and why didn't you do it when it was high?
And the way the press was treated by Pinochet, Perón, Fidel, Castelo Branco, Videla, Stroessner, Rios-Montt, and so on and so forth,
vs. the leniency of Chávez have absolutely no comparison.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
oh god, get that stupid reaganomics graphic out of here... its completely false... |
Prove it, you communist. 
quote:
I figured a thread about South American politics would quickly get Fezzed... the BAM strikes again!!! |
Politics which you know nothing about. Yes BAM strikes again, you.
quote:
And Fez, Pinochet was a war criminal just like the man who put him there, Kissinger. |
Pinochet is a hero.
quote:
Maybe the American media is scared that the American people will agree with the leftist policies. |
Very funny. Not every American (or at least I hope) is as bone headed as you. Chavez's policies are stupid beyond belief. He dragged an unwilling military into politics, and most certainly dugged himself into the hole. Now the military is pissed off at him and his people are even moreso.
The people are having a rebellion against him. The people want somebody who isn't corrupt like the old order and doesn't bring in new corruption like the so called "new" order (Chavez's rule). They need something new. Like an Alvaro Uribe for example. Don't take no for an answer, Uribe is a tough right-wing leader who was elected in neighboring Colombia. Now Venezuela needs somebody like him. And so do many other Latin American countries.
Well of course there will be people like Sava, who love the FARC and all of those leftist organizations, but they should be ignored. They serve humanity no purpose and their hot aired rhetoric (as you can notice in Sava's posts) is purely based on a poorly built foundation. Rhetoric on a poorly built foundation adds up to Latin American Politics. NEXT! I have seen enough of the People's Party this, Popular Left Front this, United Left Party... whatever... who cares? They can blow all the hot air they want but do the people in the villages really give a crap? No they don't. They just want to live.
And it is people like Chavez that are preventing that. The people in the huts and villages throughout Venezuela cannot survive with such short-sighted economic views that Chavez has. Wake up, he will bankrupt the country if he continues on the way he is going. The GDP will continue to decline (it fell by -6% Q3 according to The Economist Magazine) and nothing will be done. Chavez will continue to blame an American or European Imperialist "Consipiracy" while his country falls apart and the Venezuelan people get killed by Chavez's leftist militias. I hope the Venezuelan Armed Forces does the right thing, arrest Chavez and call for immediate elections.
Damn, I wish Carmona never left when he was sworn in as president. This whole situation wouldn't be like this if he was still in power.
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20-12-2002 21:59
That says alot about the Washington Post's "journalism." Anybody can report a news story, clearly, but not everybody understands what the heck they write about.
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