18-12-2002 23:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Fez First off, redistribution of income is in all sense communist and not permittable. People must earn there way through. Therefore the education system of the country has to be built up, so people have greater chances. What you are saying is communist therefore illogical. Your beliefs are so out of date. BTW, mine mostly rise from years of the 1980s with Ronald Reagan.

A little reading in your spare time may help. Even the goal of the free market is the most efficient distribution of wealth possible. Communism is a utopia, but I agree, state capitalism does not make sense.
You got your beliefs from an actor? Oh well.
And they are not all that original. Like I said, do some reading. You may learn something (at least to not accept actor's words unconditionally).

And yes, Carthago Delenda Est.

	18-12-2002 23:59									#62
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Ronald Reagan is a neo-classicist, and a hero. So that is where I got my beliefs from. I got my beliefs from the time he was a president. Long after his acting career was over pal.

	19-12-2002 00:07									#63
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DEATH TO REAGAN, AND DISCUSSIONS ABOUT REAGAN!

Back on topic, you two!

So, Fez, what was that point you tried to make but that was ignored?

Maybe this multile choice question will help:

That Chavez should call early elections because...?

a)He is a dictator
b) the crisis must be brought to an end
c) both of the above
d) Other...

	19-12-2002 00:09									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Ronald Reagan is a neo-classicist, and a hero. So that is where I got my beliefs from. I got my beliefs from the time he was a president. Long after his acting career was over pal.

Nope, Reagan was not a neo-classicist (the library needs your gracious patronage). And no, we are clearly not ignoring you, but your failure to debate taking into account some of the rules of logic (library... where art thou?), for example avoiding ad hominems, appeals to the crowd, non-non sequiteurs, etc. makes it quite difficult to answer to things like "what you are saying is communist and therefore illogical."

But don't go away, yet, it's starting to be fun.

Anyway, back to Venezuela, I think from the US perspective, it does not make too much sense to push the country dangerously into a civil war. They may end up with another Castro. And the correlation in South America is changing. Argentina is quite volatile and Brazil is a wild card. Colombia, well... that has not worked out for a long time, now has it? So their best bet is stability, waiting it out a few months. Or endangering the oil market even further...

	19-12-2002 00:10									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap DEATH TO REAGAN, AND DISCUSSIONS ABOUT REAGAN!

Reagan is a hero. So you be quiet. I will answer your little question anyways...

So, Fez, what was that point you tried to make but that was ignored?
[/QUOTE]

Well, the fact that early elections must be called. Venezuela won't last another six months under Chavez.

	19-12-2002 00:11									#66
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quote: DEATH TO REAGAN!

You prolly won't have to wait much longer.

I agree with GePap re: following the constitution. I think that it is essential for democracies that all participants in the political process respect the rules of the game, and act accordingly.

Therefore, though I'm no socialist, I think the Chavez opponents are in the wrong here. They should wait for the next elections and fight it out then, via legal, constitutional means.

-Arrian

	19-12-2002 00:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by El Leon Nope, Reagan was not a neo-classicist (the library needs your gracious patronage). And no, we are clearly not ignoring you,

Yes, Reagan was a neo-classicist.

quote: but your failure to debate taking into account some of the rules of logic (library... where art thou?), for example avoiding ad hominems, appeals to the crowd, non-non sequiteurs, etc. makes it quite difficult to answer to things like "what you are saying is communist and therefore illogical."

Enough of this vomit! TAKE YOUR BELIEFS AND BEAT IT. I am tired of responding to your crap.

quote: Anyway, back to Venezuela, I think from the US perspective, it does not make too much sense to push the country dangerously into a civil war. They may end up with another Castro. And the correlation in South America is changing. Argentina is quite volatile and Brazil is a wild card. Colombia, well... that has not worked out for a long time, now has it? So their best bet is stability, waiting it out a few months. Or endangering the oil market even further...

The oil market isn't endangered. There are plenty of reserves elsewhere.

	19-12-2002 00:13									#68
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Chavez can't call early elections, at least according to his interpretation of the Constitution (which is probably self-serving but then he did write the Constitution so he probably knows it better than most). All he can do is resign, which is a perfectly legitimate demand on the part of the strikers.

Does anyone know of a translation of the Venezuelan constitution we could peruse?

In the meantime:

quote: Venezuelan Govt. Decrees Strike-Breaking Powers Dec 18, 12:49 pm ET By Pascal Fletcher CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's government on Wednesday authorized the military to commandeer private ships, trucks and planes to distribute fuel and food as it intensified the effort to break an opposition strike throttling oil exports and domestic supplies. Citing national security and the need to guarantee fuel and food deliveries to the population, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's government decreed the measures as the crippling strike entered its 17th day in the world's No. 5 oil exporter. In Caracas, groups of flag-waving demonstrators demanding the resignation of the leftist leader blocked some highways and avenues, snarling traffic, as the opposition carried its protest campaign onto the streets in support of the shutdown. Former paratrooper Chavez, who was elected in 1998 and survived a coup in April, is refusing opposition calls to quit and stage early elections. He has vowed to break the strike. With neither side giving ground, a tense deadlock is gripping the oil-rich nation. Foes accuse the populist president of ruining the economy and trying to turn Venezuela into a communist state modeled on Fidel Castro's Cuba. Chavez says his self-styled "revolution" is aimed at closing the wide gap between rich and poor. The strike has crippled South America's largest oil producer, slashing output to less than 15 percent of normal levels and sending shock waves through world oil markets. Increasing fears of a U.S. war on Iraq, coupled with the Venezuelan disruption, pushed U.S crude oil futures on Wednesday to above $31 dollars a barrel. The United States imports more than 13 percent of its oil supplies from Venezuela. ROAD BLOCKS In the capital, anti-government protesters used cars, bicycles and even garbage to set up roadblocks across some major highways, especially in eastern opposition strongholds. "This mad president has got to go," said housewife Dernina Hernandez. Fights broke out as some motorists tried to pass and police fired tear gas at some demonstrators. At one block, however, protesters played soccer. The government said the strike was affecting distribution and sale of gasoline and basic foodstuffs. Fears of shortages have sent Venezuelans scrambling to banks, shops and gas stations. "Privately owned maritime, land and air transport assets used for public supply, storage and distribution of oil and (oil products), and food, can be operated by authorized civilian personnel or the armed forces, until services return to normal, without affecting property rights," the decree said. Shipping sources said troops had seized two privately owned tugboats in Puerto Cabello, west of Caracas. Agriculture Minister Efren Andrade said the measure was lawful and would not involve punitive takeovers of striking private food or fuel companies. "It's a proactive measure to restore the whole Venezuelan production chain," he said. To counter the shutdown, which officials say is costing the nation millions of dollars a day, Chavez has sent troops to take over idled state-run oil tankers, refineries and ports. He has rebuffed calls for early elections, telling foes they must wait until August next year, halfway through his current term, when the constitution allows for a binding referendum on his rule. The opposition is pressing Chavez to step down immediately. NO SIGN OF COUP In a move that appeared to bolster the president and ward off coup fears for the moment, Venezuela's army this week condemned the opposition strike as "sabotage." One powerful pro-Chavez army commander, Gen. Raul Baduel, rejected calls for a coup. "A lot of people call me telling me to stage a coup, to do something ... they're trying to give the armed forces a role that isn't healthy for democracy," he said in an interview with the Spanish newspaper La Vanguardia. With strikers in the oil sector holding firm, the soldiers have been unable to restart oil industry operations because they cannot operate the sophisticated equipment. The opposition has condemned Chavez's strike-breaking moves, vowing to step up street protests. Thousands of demonstrators marched in Caracas on Tuesday, but a huge security operation kept them away from Chavez sympathizers. The United States and other countries are urging Venezuela's government and opposition to negotiate a deal on elections before the conflict escalates into all-out violence. More than 60 people were killed in street violence during the April coup. Talks between the two sides, brokered by Organization of American States Secretary-General Cesar Gaviria, have been unsuccessful so far, but are continuing.

	19-12-2002 00:13									#69
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*sigh* This thread has been thoroughly Fezzed.

	19-12-2002 00:17									#70
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Very Fezzed indeed.

If Chavez uses that to crack down hard on the opposition, he'll be leaving himself dangerously wide open...

	19-12-2002 00:21									#71
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DinoDoc, while I haven't seen any evidence that the CIA is in someway behind the strike, it's not outside the realm of possibility. We've done it before, in Chile for example. Destabilization is an old trick.

Given the lack of a Cold War, however, I can't see the adminstration being paranoid about Soviet influence or the country going communist. On the other hand, Venezuela does provide cheap oil to Cuba, which definately pisses off the US. Chavez's wealth redistribution interferes with the ability of US corporations to extract maximum profit. It serves as a bad example to other Latin American countries that they don't need to kow-tow to the neo-liberal agenda of Washington. I don't think, however, that the Venezuelan elites needed much promtping, however.

I find it disturbing that Fez reports that the coup-plotters and members were released by the courts, if is true. They are criminals and traitors (sine they didn't win), and ought to be in jail awaiting trial. Apparently the courts are against Chavez as well.

	19-12-2002 00:26									#72
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Che

While the oppostion can call for whatever it wants, its strategy of trying to bring the state to ruin in order to get it can lead to nothing good. Besides bringing economic chaos, they have also emboldened radical Chavez supporters, and if Chavez were to resign, these radicals would probalby take violent action to thte street, and political chaos.

I think the stance of the military is wise, given what occured in April. As for what Chavez will do, i agree e needs to keep any crackdown light.

	19-12-2002 00:27									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Chavez can't call early elections, at least according to his interpretation of the Constitution (which is probably self-serving but then he did write the Constitution so he probably knows it better than most). All he can do is resign, which is a perfectly legitimate demand on the part of the strikers.

Yep. An overthrow would create a baaad example. What happens when the next president cannot immediately respond to some of the populations most urgent needs? Blockades in the streets?
Cracking hard on the opposition will not be helpful, like I said, it can push a civil war in a country so divided and with Colombia and its weapons nearby.

	19-12-2002 00:30									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara DinoDoc, while I haven't seen any evidence that the CIA is in someway behind the strike, it's not outside the realm of possibility. We've done it before, in Chile for example. Destabilization is an old trick.

There are tow very suspicious items. One is the presence of the US ambassador around the time of the coup. The other -gasp- (not that again), is the presence of a U.S. union liaison around the Venezuelan anti-chavez unions.
Turning the question around, can we expect the US government to stand aside?

	19-12-2002 00:37									#75
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*DanS joins the opposition march against all Fezzing*

	19-12-2002 00:43									#76
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quote: Originally posted by El Leon The other -gasp- (not that again), is the presence of a U.S. union liaison around the Venezuelan anti-chavez unions.

US unions no longer do the bidding of the CIA. After the Democratic Socialists of America rose to power in the AFL-CIO, they quickly closed their office that was basically nothing more than a CIA front for funneling money to pro-US unions abroad.

GePap, while I'm not in favor of the current strike in Venezuela, leaning more towards Chavez myself, the right of the people to alter or abolish their government is one of the most basic rights.

I don't think Constitutionality is necessarily a valid reason for being against a popular revolt. While the constitution in Venzuela is different from most, in that it was voted on and apprived by the Venezuelan people, many are imposed on people from above (like the US Constitution or the Chilean Constitution--though I imagine that if the US Constitution were put up to a vote, it would win overwhelmingly).

	19-12-2002 01:14									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I find it disturbing that Fez reports that the coup-plotters and members were released by the courts, if is true. They are criminals and traitors (sine they didn't win), and ought to be in jail awaiting trial. Apparently the courts are against Chavez as well.

I remember seeing the coup plotters and members were released, and Carmona, who should of stayed in power, fled the country. No, they are freedom fighters. They aren't criminals.

And why do you people like to mock me just because of my nick name here? Am I not allowed to express my opinion?

	19-12-2002 01:17									#78
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I don't think it's your nickname that people are mocking Fez. I would say you are about the only one here that watches the 70's show anyway, so the nickname is irrelevent.

	19-12-2002 01:19									#79
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I don't think it's your nickname that people are mocking Fez. I would say you are about the only one here that watches the 70's show anyway, so the nickname is irrelevent.

I think I watch that show too much....

	19-12-2002 01:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara DinoDoc, while I haven't seen any evidence that the CIA is in someway behind the strike, it's not outside the realm of possibility

It was merely a small joke about the accussations that the US was the driving force behind the first coup attempt. I am actually heartened that you agree with me that it is a vanishingly small possibility outside of the Cold War.

	19-12-2002 02:45									#81
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What do people make of the fact that the largest union, at the least, is anti Chavez? (Reported in Washington Post and BBC)

Didn't Chavez make some modifications to the judicial system (eg, expanding size of courts, packing iwth supporters) prior to changing the constitution?

Gepap:
If you dislike the Chicago Boys' economic policies since Allende, can you name any other South American country which would not trade its economic position for Chile's export driven growth?

All that said, I think it best for the opposition to wait eight months. I think their fear is that by waiting Chavez may impose a dictatorial solution, and their chance fo rlegal change would be lost.

	19-12-2002 03:46									#82
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quote: US unions no longer do the bidding of the CIA. After the Democratic Socialists of America rose to power in the AFL-CIO, they quickly closed their office that was basically nothing more than a CIA front for funneling money to pro-US unions abroad.

You are assuming that "US unions" is a cohesive entity. One thing is the AFL-CIO. Another one are the internationals. A third one is the international arm of the AFL-CIO, which is not AIFLD anymore, but...
There was one closed forum with leaders of the CTV right before the coup attempt... I'm not claiming anything, but i hope you understand my suspicions.

quote: What do people make of the fact that the largest union, at the least, is anti Chavez?

A "union" may mean any number of things in Latin America. The union in question, the CTV, has had not a few corruption problems. For example, the membership voted 2 to 1 for democratic election of leaders... The leaders then overturned the vote and got themselves back in power....

	19-12-2002 04:52									#83
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It's a pity you weren't killed by the Ecuadorian junta Fez as you strike me as the sort of parasite who wrecks every civilised society. I'd like to see you explain your admiration of Pinochet to the relatives of those he slaughtered but I guess you would be too gutless just like the typical conservative coward.

It also seems that you have swallowed the right wing myth that states that without completely free markets we'll all end up Stalinists.

Give me a break - mixed economies work. I know - I've lived in several. In fact they work better than almost any other form of organisation. Sometimes the market mechanism is most efficient, in other cases (health care for example) it is a disaster. That's just the way it is - which is why Canada spends far less per capita on health care than the US whilst getting much better services.

In any case - if I had a choice between being poor under Pinochet and poor in Cuba - I'd choose Fidel every time.

Why don't you come up with some arguments instead of bald assertions? Have you ever been to a proper school or are you just one of the morons who reads Ayn Rand's stupid and juvenile books.

Go one - give us some arguments. It will be a pleasure and a duty to expose you as the idiot you are.

	19-12-2002 04:57									#84
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Well, apparently some FARC people have met with pro-Chavez militants a couple of times in the past/present...Now I suppose that makes for an international leftist-conspiracy no?

Funny how not few people tend to blindly believe in right-wing conspiracies, but utterly dismiss left-wing ones....Myself, I believe both could be possibilities, but I presume nothing more than that, in this particular case.

And from what I've heard other unions have also been reasonably corrupt in the Venezuelan past, whether they are pro or anti-Chavez right now. That comes with the field, I'd guess.

	19-12-2002 06:19									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Go one - give us some arguments. It will be a pleasure and a duty to expose you as the idiot you are.

Far too late for that.

	19-12-2002 06:23									#86
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Edit: I am sorry. My comments were out of line. I am now pulling out of this argument. Continue it without me.

Last edited by Giancarlo on 19-12-2002 at 06:43

	19-12-2002 06:43									#87
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Oh oh, death threats in the forum.

Don't take Fez so seriously now, he is only playing.

	19-12-2002 07:44									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's a pity you weren't killed by the Ecuadorian junta Fez as you strike me as the sort of parasite who wrecks every civilised society

Comments like this makes me wonder how you consider yourself any better.

	19-12-2002 21:36									#89
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Well, apparently some FARC people have met with pro-Chavez militants a couple of times in the past/present...Now I suppose that makes for an international leftist-conspiracy no?

Well, I frankly don't see how a meeting of the FARC with pro-chavez militants (you find these FARC guys in the weirdest places after their shift in international policy in 1999) compares to a long-term relationship between the AFL and CTV, in which the AFL has been known to take the "these guys are bad, but they are the best option in light of..." stance, out of which comes a closed forum with the whole CTV sponsored (and presumably funded) by the AFL where Chavez and the strike are discussed. Next day there is a coup attempt. I don't think it is a conspiracy theory, and less so do I think it is a right wing one.

quote: And from what I've heard other unions have also been reasonably corrupt in the Venezuelan past, whether they are pro or anti-Chavez right now. That comes with the field, I'd guess.

Unions, governments... it does come with the field: post-colonial latin america. The other major union federation has had corruption problems, but at least they elect their leaders.

	19-12-2002 22:02									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Gepap: If you dislike the Chicago Boys' economic policies since Allende, can you name any other South American country which would not trade its economic position for Chile's export driven growth?

Chile's recovery didn't begin until after Pinochet sent the Chicago Boy's packing and began undoing everything they had told him to do. Greg Palast is one of the actual Chicago boys. He studied under Friedman at U of C in the early 70s (granted, at the behest of Communist union leader Frank Rosen). Tinker Bell Pinochet and the Fairy Tale Miracle of Chile Of course, I'm sure Fez will refute this simply by saying it's all lies and commie propaganda.

El Leon, the AIFLD doesn't exist anymore, not under any name. That was the office that Sweeney and company shut down when they came into office. Many of the internationals have also been reformed, and no longer do the government's bidding.

The Amerian trade union movement shifted significantly to the left during the 90s, after seeing what all it's close cooperation with management and the government had gotten it. While they certainly aren't healthy yet, they are a long way from the corrupt, anti-worker organizations of the past. Their biggest problem is that they are still too timid.