12-02-2004 02:31									#91
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Yeah but I don't think the language barrier can explain the fact they want to trade for a tech they already have? Although the use of the word "greetings" to sign off is a good touch

do they already have astronomy? that makes it even more confusing.

maybe greetings in German is like aloha, meaning both hello and goodbye



Actually I think a lot of that "language difficulty" is a put on, trying to work an extra angle against us. I mean, this team was in constant communication with GoW planning and executing their war.

	12-02-2004 03:58									#92
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No problem, we say we've run out of Physics and offer them Iron Working.

	12-02-2004 04:34									#93
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I only spent a few days in Germany (Munich), but the class I put on was full of people that spoke pretty good English.

But you have point, who knows what to make of it. We are forced to try to interpret as best we can.

	12-02-2004 13:50									#94
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Looking at various posts of Zayxus on other forums, he is very much a minimalist - I've not found a post of his more than 4 lines long, and most of them are one line - panag-esque comments (well, not anywhere near that weird really). His English is far better than my German, but occasionally erratic.

AND THIS IS THE DIPLO THREAD, NOT THE DISCUSSION THREAD!

	12-02-2004 14:12									#96
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Although the use of the word "greetings" to sign off is a good touch

It's common use to conclude a letter in German with "Viele Grüße", which means "Many greets [to you]". Zayxus' use of "Greetings" shows, that he's able to translate words by their meaning, but is not able to translate phrases of common use. This usually means, he learned the language in school pretty well, but is not used much to talk to anglophones.

Yes I know, this is the diplo thread.

No, it doesn't bother me.

	12-02-2004 19:15									#97
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SR.

It's not that I didn't understand, per se (thanks anyway, Trip), it's that I was thrown off by the lack of any sort of suggestions from them as to what sort of deal (do they want to buy those techs, or trade us tech in return, or get credit for the future, etc?). I've had a head cold the last couple of days so I just sorta posted and ran.

I figured that Zayxus' English skills are, like Sir Ralph says, a bit limited. He can translate the words, but the meanings will often be a little bit off. It beats the hell out of my German (I probably know 5 words), but it can be a little confusing. No big deal, we can work through that.

So, gentlemen, let us retire to the discussion thread and figure out what we want to ask in return for Astro (do they really not have that yet?) and Physics.

-Arrian

	12-02-2004 20:37									#98
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New message sent to ND:

quote: Zayxus, Thank you for your response. Apparently, one or more GS members will be attending a chat today at 3pm EST (-5GMT) with representatives from GoW and ND. We have discussed tech trading a lot in our forum of late, and hope to make some progress towards some sort of partnership during the chat. Unfortunately, I cannot be there, since it's mid-afternoon for me and I will still be at work. I will contact you again after the chat, and hopefully I will have a better idea of how to proceed. -Arrian

I took the liberty of just firing this off w/o debate, as it merely informative. I thought it might be best to make absolutely sure that Zayxus is kept "in the loop" considering how difficult communication with ND can be. In case he isn't present at the chat, I mean. Left hand not knowing what the Right hand is doing and all that.

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 17:15									#99
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Message to Zayxus / ND:

quote: Angebot fuer Physik Gruesse Zayxus, Ich bin der neu Botschafter nach (zur?) Neu Demogyptica von Gathering Storm. Wir haben Ihr Angebot fuer Physik besprochen, und haben dieses entschieden: weil Physik 1.280 Becher zu Forschung kostet (verringert von 1.600 weil GoW und wir sie haben) das wir etwas mehr wie 800 Gold fuer sie wuenschen wuerden. So ist unser Angebot Physik fuer 800 Gold. Sind Sie interessiert? Entschuldigungen, wenn mein Deutsch night sehr gut ist. Ich hoffe, dass du mich verstehen koennen. vulture

Translation (well, what I was trying to say anyway - no guarantee that that is actually what I said...)

quote: Greetings Zayxus, I am the new ambassador to ND from GS. We have discussed your offer for physics, and have decided this: because it costs 1280 beakers to research (reduced from 1600, since GoW and us have it) we would want something more like 800 gold for it. So our offer is Physics for 800 gold. Are you interested? Apologies if my German isn't very good. I hope that you can understand me.

	17-02-2004 20:54									#100
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Message sent to ND (Zayxus) a few hours ago:

quote: Schlechten Nachrichten ueber Lego Ich bin der Ueberbringer schlechter Nachrichten: Lego hat "Magellan's Expedition" abgeschlossen, und hat ihr "Golden Age" angefangen.

Basically: Bad news; Lego have built Magellan's and started their Golden Age.

I got a reply from Zayxus Friday saying that he'd posted our 800 gold for physics offer on their board and they'd get back to us.

	23-02-2004 14:22									#101
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Rather blunt reply from Zayxus:

quote: Hello, bad news. Your price for Technology 'Physics' is too high. Greetings Zayxus as Diplomat for ND.

	24-02-2004 19:28									#102
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quote: 600g for Physics then - yes, GS will go with that. Our ambassador will contact you soon with a suggested deal for Magnetism and Theory of Gravity, which we can also trade with you.

	25-02-2004 18:22									#103
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Sent with the turn

quote: :-( We see that you have bought Physics from Legoland while we were negotiating the finer details of the price. It is a pity (and extremely surprising) that you are still working with Lego, as this will help them get the Industrial Wonders and nearly double their power. After the chat with GoW, we thought that GS-GoW-ND had agreed to work out tech deals with each other, to slow Lego down and to try and stop them winning. We didn't immediately agree on a price for Physics, but we expected negotiations. We were hoping to do a deal with you for ToG and Magnetism, and are still hoping to do so. :-(

	05-03-2004 00:28									#104
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it seems I forgot to attach the save... I got a message from Zayxus through PM, which I answered (the original e-mail message I sent was an introduction, and a short 'if you want techs, we have them and want to trade')

quote: Hello Zayxus, My deepest apologies, I forgot to attach the save As to your PM (which I will also answer by PM, just in case): I think everybody deserves a break from time to time of playing this game, it is too taxing otherwise. I have much respect for the players who have been doing this for several months now... We currently have all the middle age techs, and are close to steam. In last chat, we proposed to swap steam for nationalism to you, and we still would love to. We realize you still need 1 or 2 techs (Magnetism and Thereoy of Gravity?) before you can start on that deal, and would love to be the ones trading it to you. Our main concern right now is to keep Lego from gaining too much, they are the biggest team by far, still have lots of room to expand into, cannot be touched at this moment on their continent, and just started their Golden Age. If the other teams don't cooperate, Lego will have won this game. We want to do our share, and provide you with techs at cheap prices, as long as you agree to keep Lego from growing too hard. Research is about the only thing we're still good at, even if we're not even close to Lego in their Golden Age. So any offer you have for our techs will be taken into serious consideration! Best regards, DeepO quote: Hello DeepO! I just found this : quote: ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- steven . bex at chello . be (reason: 551 Mail from your IP address is currently blocked based on RBL listing) Here is the mail I wished to send you: quote: Datum: 04.03.04 07:40:10 Hallo DeepO! Nice to acquaint you. Perhaps in some weeks another of Neu Demogyptica would to place as player, if I take a break. What techs does GS offer for deal? Thank you for your offer of writing in German. In this game I enjoy to think and write in English for training it. My Dutch is only a little, but I liked to visite your country offen. *** Could it be, there was no save attached? I looked carefully at my mail, but there was no attachment. I can play earliest in the evening of europe anyway. Best Regards Zayxus As Diplomat of Neu Demogyptica

	08-03-2004 17:28									#105
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Thanks Darekill,

and my apologies for the late answer, I was out of the country since Friday. Please let me take this to our forum, so we can discuss and formulate an answer for you.

Best regards,
DeepO

quote: Dear DeepO, the people of neu Demogyptica is aware of the situation in the world. We made a decission in the beginning of this game to strike the deals withthe best conditions for us. Right now we consider the deals with Legoland of greater benefit for us. This has nothing to do with your team but your prices aren't able to beat the ones that Legoland has set up so we trade with them. As for the plans of a war, we must clarify that the last war with RP and GS was the last one that saw ND as an Agressor. We have splendid relationship to Legos and are not the ones to fall in the backs of our former allys even if it means, that we will not finish this game in a winning position. As much as this is true for Legoland it is also true for GoW and GS. ND sees no reason to fight another nation in this game anymore. This does not mean we are weak, we are ready to defend ourselfes if need be. I hope you can understand our position and accept it. We are still open for any deals that beat the offers from other Nations. So feel free to offer whatever you can. sincerely Darekill Member of ND

	08-03-2004 19:21									#106
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Holy ****ing ****

quote: We made a decission in the beginning of this game to strike the deals withthe best conditions for us. Right now we consider the deals with Legoland of greater benefit for us. This has nothing to do with your team but your prices aren't able to beat the ones that Legoland has set up so we trade with them. As for the plans of a war, we must clarify that the last war with RP and GS was the last one that saw ND as an Agressor. We have splendid relationship to Legos and are not the ones to fall in the backs of our former allys even if it means, that we will not finish this game in a winning position.

Translation: ND will do tech deals based soley on what is cheapest for them, with no regard to geostrategic concerns. Further, ND considers Lego a friend and ally and refuses to fight them, even if this means Lego wins.

Game Over, essentially. Ok, perhaps I'm exaggerating, but if the #2 power refuses to do anything to hamper the #1 power... things are bad.

Without ND's support - even their tacit support - GoW cannot attack Legoland. Their only hope would be a surprise strike on ND, which though it *might* work, would most likely leave Lego in an even better position, and that's to the extent that Lego doesn't intervene.

Blah.

-Arrian

	08-03-2004 19:59									#107
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Either they are full of crap or they should not be playing games with anyone but their family.
The idea that you would not play to win seems very hard to grasp for me.

I would say I don't respect that , but so be it.

	08-03-2004 20:05									#108
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You play to win the game!

-h. edwards, ny jets.


christ almighty

	08-03-2004 20:55									#109
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Hm? Their strategy is perfectly sound if you ask me.

1. They'll eventually have more land than Lego.
2. They spend less in research costs by buying techs from Lego (or anyone else).
3. Attacking any other team does not gain them much anymore due to Corruption.

They are, however, gambling on a few things:

1. Lego is playing the peaceful/Ferengi game, too.
2. Lego is not already too far ahead of them economically.
3. GoW is not hell-bent on destruction.

I would say all of the above apply.

---

Essentially, they're confident they can take Lego on in a full-economic struggle, so why bother attacking anyone? Let the minor powers worry about the Big Two, they say.

Our strategy now is to try to convince them they're wrong (difficult), or Lego of the same thing (easier, but still difficult). GoW needs to be in our pocket (or, better, our allies) ASAP. I'm not really sure how we're going to challenge ND or Lego, but by not fully cooperating with GoW we're sure to lose this thing.

We need to know if GoW is planning another war.


Dominae

	08-03-2004 22:56									#110
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Dom,

I understand your points, but looking at things I don't think ND is even close to Lego economically, and I don't think they will be for a very long time. It could be they are hoping to have some sort of "build off" with Lego, figuring they can out-build Lego because they will be larger and control more luxuries (and possibly more resources).

If that's what they think, I think they're wrong. I think Lego will easily out-build them, unless something is done to weaken Lego. Given that, I find ND's stance quite frustrating.

So that leaves GoW. The only thing they can do is attack ND. They can't go hit Lego with ND in bed with Lego. So will they hit ND? I see problems with that. First, they're tight with ND (see the post-war city exchanges). Second, if it's a 1-on-1 fight, the two are pretty evenly matched (ND is bigger and probably better economically, but GoW has Leos), and the more time passes, the stronger ND gets vis-a-vis GoW. Lego might jump in to help ND, totally screwing GoW. What help can Stormia really provide?

It reminds me of that quote from Stalin to British negotiators in 1939 (who were trying to get him to ally with them versus Nazi Germany): "How many land divisions can you mobilize?" Response: "Two." Stalin: "I have 300." *laughs* Of course, Stalin was a fool for other reasons, but we won't get into that now.

We're in a real tight spot here, folks. And it appears the only thing we can do is cozy up to GoW. Excuse me while I puke. They're erratic and untrustworthy. Great.

-Arrian

	08-03-2004 23:06									#111
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Dom you are correct on their strat with the three points. The problem is they lost the gamble on #2 already and have no chance of peacefully winning IMO.

The thing is they said they don't care if they don't win and are happy to play to lose. I have no problem if they made the points you made and are willing to gamble.

Anyway our proposal could not hurt them if we are correct and would help them over come Lego if we are. It also did not call for them to engage in a war, only an excluse tech deal.

	08-03-2004 23:15									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I understand your points, but looking at things I don't think ND is even close to Lego economically, and I don't think they will be for a very long time.

This is debatable, right? So maybe ND thinks they can out-build Lego in the end, while we do not. Assuming ND is playing to win, maybe they need some convincing on this matter?

Also, remember that Lego (like everyone else) is only as strong as her tech allies. ND may be thinking that they're in a better position to call the shots in the tech race. At the moment they're okay with Lego being in the loop, but at some time they'll be able to cut them off (GoW is ND's good friend, and we've made our stance very clear that Lego is to be feared, so theoretically ND could call the shots).

In any case, there's no point in getting angry about this. Let's assume everyone is playing to win and see what we can do with what we're given. We need to react and adjust to this set of circumstances, not complain about them (even though they are admittedly frustrating).


Dominae

	09-03-2004 00:08									#113
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Euh, guys... this is supposed to be the log, not the discussion thread

Anyway, next message to / from Darekill:

quote: Thanks... just so you know, we tend to copy all GS messages into a log, and do not copy those messages to other teams. If you want, you're free to copy my messages to yur forum as well, of course. DeepO quote: Oh, no problem with that, since this isn't exactly a private message you have my permission to publish all my messages that are signed with "Darekill Member of ND" in the GS private forum. Only there, not in someone elses But with this special message I wouldn't have a problem with that either... Darekill Member of ND

	16-03-2004 02:01									#114
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sent with the save:

quote: Hello Neu Demogyptica, I'm sorry for the delay, especially as the save has been played yesterday around noon. The problem is we're short on manpower right now, especially in our diplomatic department. Normally, asleepattheweel handles diplo with you guys, but he is very busy atm. We have been holding the save to try to handle this situation. As you might have heard, we would love to trade you techs, and we just researched Steam. Are you interested in acquiring that from us, maybe even together with the 2 techs you will need to get to the industrial age? We are very open for suggestions, and were a bit disappointed you got the last tech from Lego, it was a bit of miscommunication between our teams it seems. The reason why we would love to handle this quickly is that we would want to sponsor GoW to research quicker, to offset Lego's GA. The game would not be any fun if they are allowed to race ahead, and I know you are not concerned or bothered by this, but we are. Is there any chance that we can strike a deal now, or next turn? We would be interested in hard cash, lux, and tech to trade for. And I can assure you we will not hesitate to try to outbid Lego, if only we are given a chance to do so. Please get back to us on this, and if at all possible keep sleepy in the communications as well, as I'm leaving on a conference Wednesday morning. Many thanks, DeepO

	19-03-2004 03:15									#115
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quote: Hello Cort Haus ! The Council of ND is rather quiet last time, thus I try an offer of a deal on my own. About deals I remember for the idea to resolve a deal of 3 parties of GS, GOW and ND about Medicine by GOW and ND for Steampower by GS. ND would support GOW for researching Medicine, and by this also support GS to get it and by this ND would support GS to get Tech "Scientific Methods" more quickly and the Wonder "Theory of Evolution" and the 2 free techs from it, which would be given for free to ND, too. The offer: Medicine from ND and GOW for Steampower and the 2 free techs by built Wonder "Theory of Evolution" from GS. What is your opinion? Best Regards Zayxus Copy to DeepO

	20-03-2004 00:36									#116
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DRAFT response to ND:

quote: Zayxus, Hello! Arrian here, responding on behalf of the Gathering Storm to your tech trade offer you sent to Cort Haus and DeepO. As I understand it, you are asking for 4 technologies in exchange for your assistance in providing 1 (medicine). We do, of course, understand there is more to it than just that, given the Theory of Evolution and the "free" techs it provides (I say "free" because we do, after all, have to invest 600 shields to get those techs). Perhaps we can compromise a bit? Here is our counteroffer: 1) You assist GoW in their medicine research, and they research at maximum speed. 2) GS gives ND and GoW Steam Power and Electricity. Steam Power is payment for medicine (though it is a more expensive tech) and Electricity is free in consideration for your help to our plans for ToE. All technologies would carry 20-turn no-trade provisions. We would not pass on Medicine for 20 turns, and you would not pass on Steam Power or Electricity for 20 turns. I very much hope you find this deal acceptable. If you do not, however, I am willing to consider any counteroffer you might have. I may not agree to it, but I'm always willing to consider it. -Arrian

QUESTION: does ND still need any tech to get into the industrial age... like magnetism? Can we provide that too, to sweeten the pot?

EDIT: checked the last turn thread, and apparently ND still do not have magnetism. I'd say let's throw that at them too. Mag+Steam+Elect in exchange for ToE. Think of it that way.
-Arrian

	22-03-2004 05:21									#117
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Sent with last save:

quote: Hello Zayxus, We apologize for not begin able to fulfill your wishes on helping GoW reach medicine early. For the maximum of 1000 gold they need, getting over 14000 beakers in return is a bit too much, I'm sure you can understand. We want to make you nice offers, but I guess you wouldn't accept us getting a tech like e.g. Nationalism from you for 200 gold. Plus, the situation has changed: now that Vox received Nationalism as a free tech and not steam or medicine, the urgency has deminished. Lego can't get these for free, which leaves us enough gold to sponsor GoW ourselves, if they need any help. That doesn't mean we don't want to trade with you. Previously, we had a deal in chat, in which ND would trade Nationalism, GoW would trade Medicine, and GS would trade Steam on an equal cost basis. Even if the value of Nationalism has now deminished (as Vox also has it), we would still be interested in a Nationalism - Steam trade. Otherwise, we would be happy to sell you Steam for gold or lux. Are you interested in this, and if so, please make an offer. As long as the beaker to gold ratio is not 14 to 1, I'm sure we can trade. Sincerely, DeepO

	10-04-2004 22:02									#118
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Sent with save 195:

quote: Hello ND, are you interested in acquiring Electricity from us? If so, please name your price. Kind regards, DeepO

	11-04-2004 01:14									#119
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received and responded by e-mail:

quote: Zayxus, please do so, we're eager to trade with you, and so far didn't have any opportunity yet Hoping to hear from you soon, DeepO That could be only in next turn, I have to discuss this with people of ND first. Thank you. Best regards Zayxus

	11-04-2004 02:08									#120
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e-mail again:

quote: Yes, I understand, take your time on the board. I'm not sure I understand your last sentence though, did we do something wrong in your eyes? If so, we are not aware of it, so please explain. We want to improve our relations with ND, we have wanted to do so since the end of our war... which is months behind us. Kind regards, DeepO [e-mail edited out] wrote: The people of ND have to decide about that deal in the next days. Best regards Zayxus Trying to take this story with humor.