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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
If timed right, we don't lose much research anyway... what is a realistic eta on literature, 30 turns? whereas an eta on the GL is 35 or less... that leaves not much space for gold generation, or wasted research.
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The Great Library would be a bit longer than that, especially if we build another settler in EotS before starting on workers. We're six turns after the one we just took from our next settler. Then we have to churn out the workers, have the workers improve the tiles they'll be working when they join the city, and join the city before it will be up to full speed. At size 9 and leaving EotS with two furs (needed for 5-turn settler production), if we leave the forest and build a mine, Hurricane would gross 15 shields per turn, and net maybe 13. So even at full speed, Hurricane would need 31 turns, and until we start adding workers, its rate will be well under half that.
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Dominae
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Ok, I've reread the chat log a second time and have drawn up a list of quotes and comments. But first, I completely agree with Arrian concerning the WC-Immortal venture: by the time we get a sizeable force up and running, the other teams may be hitting the Medieval age (the way they trade tech). So our WC part of the bargain will not pull as much weight, and thus the whole operation might be a lot more difficult than expected (a lot more difficult that taking out Vox?).
Ok, here we go:
< SirRalph > Jon: WCs are not jungle going. You were completely safe, till we'd build a road through the jungle.
< Jon_Miller > oh, well, we did not know that about WCs at the time
This is utter bull-crap. If you all want I can look up specific posts where members of Vox were clearly aware that WCs do not go through Jungle tiles.
< nbarclay > I guess I can see that - you wanted to know whether we had enough land that we could afford to let you claim some of the north?
Also bull-crap. The Voxians were at no point thinking of an alliance, until they saw our fast research rate and the size of our lands. They're stepping back and reevaluating their position. I'm convinced they'll do this with our alliance, if given the opportunity.
< Jon_Miller > oh, we actually thought that you that it did not slow your research (because of how fast your research was)
JM is referring to the lag when we were thinking of starting on Alphabet. More bull-crap. We explicity told them that we waited a turn (or two?) for their response, meaning that our research was slowed, not matter how fast it is.
< Jon_Miller > and us being worried about you attacking us once you got IW
First they're worried about WCs, then they're worried about Swordsmen. Sounds like extra worrying, given that they were afraid of WCs in the first place. Clearly they're making themselves out to be the victims, which is perfectly fair given the circumstances, but this does not allow them to call the shots in our alliance (see below).
< nbarclay > It looks like we have one iron in a place you haven't explored yet.
Was it really necessary to tell them this?
< nbarclay > At the very least, we have a strong consensus in favor of the tech partnership you wanted.
Really? I assume the "we" here is GS? Which tech partnership is this, the one where we freely trade everything? Last I heard, this is not the predominant opinion of GS members.
< Jon_Miller > well, you are getting 13 cities, and more sread out
< Jon_Miller > we have 10 and more compact
Like I said, they're expecting us to pity them for being so weak, and are using this as a bargaining chip. Sure, we want them to large enough to be of use to us, but more or less evening out the number of cities? Might I remind everyone that our lands are nice, but not that nice; while the southern tip is superb, the Hills+Desert locations aren't exactly optimal. Thus our tile advantage is not so great as it appears.
< Jon_Miller > so I think that to make things better, it would be better to give us a couple of more squares
Why is Vox calling the shots? As far as I could see, we gave in to most of their general requests (haggling was only done over specific tiles). At some point Nathan was actually trying to give Vox more land! Our land is our advantage. Vox's cities down in the neck will not be very productive (due to corruption), making their use to us in the tech partnership not at all great compared to their use if they were our own.
< Jon_Miller > and there is a big difference between 13 and 10 cities
Again, more haggling, as though "partnership" means "balance of power". Look at the U.S. today: sure they're partners with my other countries, but they are surely not giving up their lands/resources/souls.
< Jon_Miller > jungle is not worthless, it just matters not a lot
Trying to pull a fast one on us here. If Vox is willing to go for a big long-term partnership, why are they worried about the short-term disadvantages of Jungle tiles?
< nbarclay > I'm working with two constraints here. On one hand, you need enough land to build a civ worth playing. On the other hand, we need enough land that our team won't think it's better just to grab the whole thing when the time is right.
I actually agree with the first constraint; if Vox does not get to build a few extra cities, they will be a lot more unpredictable. But "a few cities" is maximum 4. The second constraint we've already satisfied just by the nature of our lands and our Settler-pump in Eye. So, should we reconsider taking over Vox?
Dominae
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
I think that would be premature. Besides, we can build galleys faster than Vox can, so we can scout their territory from the coast, pretending that it is as an expedition to explore Lux Invicta's coast (which would be the truth, but not all the truth...  ). |
I personally would rather have the information now, but if you prefer to remain ignorant about their territory, then fine. Also, we would likely make contact with Lux like Vox did, and not have to wait for writing to get their contact, thus lowering the tech costs all around. But hey, we could wait til mapmaking, then make contact with Lux, thus losing turns on every scientific advance relative to the mainland. Even if it took, say one less turn to contact Lux than getting writing (and trading it to Vox and getting the contact in return (if we can make one turn trades then), that would still benefit our science.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I personally would rather have the information now, but if you prefer to remain ignorant about their territory, then fine.
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I don't, but I'm making a trade-off. It's seeing their territory at the expense of having to let Vox see ours as part of the agreement, or seeing their territory at the expense of having to wait until MM and then building a galley. I strongly prefer the latter because IMHO, being able to see Vox's homeland while they'll be unable to see ours will shift the balance of power further in our advantage, but the other option is fine too.
quote:
But hey, we could wait til mapmaking, then make contact with Lux, thus losing turns on every scientific advance relative to the mainland.
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That's not what I meant. Like you (that is, if I understood you correctly), I wish to make contact with Lux ASAP, by getting their contact from Vox. That is separate from actually being able to see their territory, which is what we'll need a galley for (unless we trade maps with Lux after MM, but that way they'll have maps of our homeland, whereas if we send a galley, we'll be the only ones to see the others' homelands, at least until they send their own expedition).
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by zeit
I agree with Dominae in that much of Jon's "we were afraid of you so...(we didn't keep promises, delayed, blocked you scouting and so forth) was pretty much a childish and shallow explanation, although it might be true nonetheless.
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Agreed. They understand that coming to the negotiations table with a past such as theirs puts you at a disadvantage. They're trying to provide [ridiculous] excuses for their behavior in order to start a clean sheet - but they are the exact same Vox.
quote:
Regarding the land issue and tech partnership- only an even partnership, that is a tech for a tech which evens out (like the last deal with Vox), nothing in the spirit of: we share everything, which is clearly too much in Vox's favor. |
Agreed. Furthermore, a tech where everyone is supposed to share everything will encourage our "partners" to slack behind and not put all of their efforts into research, knowing that the prize is guaranteed. Whereas, an even partnership and tech for a tech deals encourage the parties involved to research faster.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Agreed. Furthermore, a tech where everyone is supposed to share everything will encourage our "partners" to slack behind and not put all of their efforts into research, knowing that the prize is guaranteed. Whereas, an even partnership and tech for a tech deals encourage the parties involved to research faster. |
agreed again. There certainly doesn't seem to be a majority on the 'trade whatever we have' deal, and it would be unworkable.
I do think, though that while we should try to balance costs, we can't expect to always have equal costs. So far, the beaker costs added up nicely, but this will end very soon. I don't mind to e.g. trade code of laws for philosophy, even if we are in the disadvantage, that is ok for me. What I don't want to do is to have to trade code of laws for nothing, while once we research philosophy, Vox expects to get that one too.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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border proposition: I disagree on Vox's proposal for moving the wheat city to 2 from the wheat, it should be 1 from the wheat instead. There are a couple of reasons:
- first of all, I don't want to batle culturally for the iron source, that should be ours.
- Second, it doesn't give them anything more (apart from the iron), they do not win any more jungle tiles, or at least not more then they can work
- third, it wouldn't be good for them: if the city is located 1 from the wheat, it will be closer to their capital, hence marginally less corruption. Further, it can use the forest chop without a cultural improvement.
As there are no reasons to move it towards us, they shouldn't need to do it.
Other points: I don't like the deletion of site #15(?), just to give Vox a few tiles more. #15 was going to be one of our best cities, so this is not a small deal here. Sure, we can use some of its tiles in that coastal city (#14 from now on), but this deletion is not in our advantage at all. We give away another entry point to the spinebreakers, lose all jungle (I doubt we'll need the rubber, but you never know). If we really need to get our city count down, I suggest we move #14 (the coastal city) 1 from last position, so it can use more of the tiles, and be farther apart from Vox's coastal city.
And still, I don't completely agree on the division: 11 over 14 seems a bit too much... you already saw that Vox will negotiate to get the best deal, and it doesn't give us any margin. I'd rather say: we need 15 over 11 cities, and after much haggling(sp?) from Vox say:"okay, okay, we will once again fold, you can have your 14 over 11 ratio. But this will be remembered, next time we deal, we expect that you give some advantage to us..."
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
That's not what I meant. Like you (that is, if I understood you correctly), I wish to make contact with Lux ASAP, by getting their contact from Vox. That is separate from actually being able to see their territory, which is what we'll need a galley for (unless we trade maps with Lux after MM, but that way they'll have maps of our homeland, whereas if we send a galley, we'll be the only ones to see the others' homelands, at least until they send their own expedition). |
My point was that we could move to the space where Vox contacted lux to get the contact before writing. Even if its two turns earlier, it would help out, maybe reducing the time to get writing by one turn. I would think that the efficiency experts here would like that.
OTOH, once Vox saw our land, they would probably start whining, as usual, and try to squeeze more northern land out of us. 
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Dominae
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I agree with all of DeepO's comments, especially about site 15. Just because we're sort of partners now (are we?) doesn't mean we have to give in to their requests. Something along a 15-10 split seems the best we should even consider (I much prefer 15-9 or 14-8). This is not being unreasonalbe; this is playing the hand we've been dealt.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by zeit
Regarding the land issue and tech partnership- only an even partnership, that is a tech for a tech which evens out (like the last deal with Vox), nothing in the spirit of: we share everything, which is clearly too much in Vox's favor. |
That depends. If Vox can leverage their monopoly on contact well enough, they could end up ahead on tech through equal-cost trades. Even just being able to trade what they research when we can't trade what we research could potentially double thier effective rate of tech progress (at least unless and until Lux reaches a point where trading with them is no longer possible), and trading away what we research on top of that would give them even more of an advantage. For however long that advantage would hold, we could find ourselves falling behind them.
Further, given the disparity in sizes that will exist even if we're generous with Vox in defining borders, we can afford an arrangement that would benefit them a bit more than it benefits us if such an arrangement helps us relative to the rest of the world. Vox is nowhere near our most serious competition, and getting so caught up in making sure Vox doesn't benefit from working with us any more than we benefit from working with them could end up costing us relative to the rest of the world.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
By the way, if we DO go for the Great Library, I think we also need to take a serious look at taking over our continent after we complete it. What good is a weak, untrustworthy tech trade partner when we have the GL? I'd rather, at that point, have control of our continent, and the security bonus that provides. Further, it would trigger our GA (hopefully in Republic).
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I can understand the urge to take over the continent, and i seem to like it more than being dragged and slowed down by our lowly and annoying partner. I think that any military alliance with Vox, as was brought up in the chat is a nice talk, but will prove to be a tactical disaster- Vox is just too afraid and concerned with its immediate survival (as was reflected by their extreme short term reasoning) to seriously commit istelf to oversees conquest alliance.
Indeed, i forsee that Vox will not serve as a worthy long term partner, but for now, the plans for conquest must be put aside, and discussions on the details of our deals must be finished quickly, before the Voxians change their minds again.
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Dominae
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Nathan, I'll do a short search on the WC issue (an in-depth one could take a while). I'll keep you posted.
Concerning the jungle city, what's wrong with size 8?!?
Your point about Vox not being our biggest enemy is well-taken. At the same time, they're potentially not our biggest ally either. If we restrict ourselves this early on, there might eventually be 3-4 superpowers in the world: Demo, Lego, Lux (say) and GS/Vox. What I'm saying is that our partnership could be quite strong, but individually GS would not. I would much rather have a situation where a strong GS strikes up a tech partnership with a strong Lego (say). This type of deal leads to military alliances that would actually be worth something. Military partnerships with Vox will lead nowhere, IMO, so basically we're partnering with them for short-term gain only (effectively, not in word). When comes time to assert ourselves, we'll find Vox to be the best target, but they will no longer be an option. Best keep our options open.
Dominae
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