03-01-2003 10:51									#1
	Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments Get a bigger avatar today!

Let's use this thread to discuss the PM sent and received. Just so we don't clutter up the PM thread of vox.

Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli

	03-01-2003 10:56									#2
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quote: 3. The Voice begat Willy. The Voice begat Tim. The Voice begat Thadeus.

Could they be serious about this???

Would they be so stupid to tell us their capital is now defended by one warrior and one only???
Not to mention their second (unsettled) city has no defense???

	03-01-2003 11:03									#3
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(originally posted by MSS -see other thread)

ManicStarSeed


Here is our reply:

I wanted to push the point of the warriors , but I figured not yet. We do not want to push too hard or too soon..

Mss

quote: Ambassador BeatHound: Why yes thank you for asking, we are doing well, although we do miss our former leader (NYE) whom has be absorbed by this thing called RL. Suffice to say the nation is doing well despite this brief time in mourning. Thank you for sharing that fine piece of culture, what do you call it? I hope that, together we can do some more of...well, whatever it is you call it, about the triumphs that our two nations achieve against what can be a hostile bob. Again we eagerly await your relpies to our previous envoy. Let me know if you have any questions so that we can get them answered. Warm Regards; ManicStarSeed and Gathering Storm PS. Please enjoy these few bottles of this champaign, Share it with the team and loved ones as a token of our good will. It is from 3050 BC, a very fine year for champaign, if I may say so.

	03-01-2003 11:05									#4
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not bad MSS, not bad at all.

I understand they can't give a complete answer on the issues immediately, but I would repeat the warrior thing again IMHO.
They should be able to decide that one before thei next turn comes up

	03-01-2003 11:06									#5
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I do not know. I have not done any critical analysis of what they sent. I figured it is mostly role play and did not pay it any mind regarding intelligence. But then again alva, you might be right. Little unconcious things creap out that can be worth analyzing.

I did say that 3050 BC was a very fine year, though I was talking specifically about champaign. I do not even know if that is the year we got a goodied a settler, but I know it is close.

	03-01-2003 11:13									#6
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Thanks Alva;
I wanted to give them a day before I brought it (the warrior thing) up again. I do not want them thinking we have something to hide and pushing that point will do it. As I learned from Dune... "beginnings are always delicate"

I would love to discuss this more, But I have to drop out for the night and spend time with the wife. Please post away and I will check back on Friday (PST=GMT-8)

G'nite
mss

[edit]typo

	03-01-2003 13:12									#7
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I also Wonder why they told us what their initial build queue was. If we discover that they're lying about their actual troop distribution, we should not take this lightly. I'm guessing they've obtained a Conscript or two and are attemtping to misinform us.

Though they may seriously need some time to mull over the proposals, I believe we should push the Warrior issue immediately, and the others within 3-5 turns. Call me impatient, but they could at least tell us "no thank you for now" to our proposals.


Dominae

	03-01-2003 13:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I also Wonder why they told us what their initial build queue was. If we discover that they're lying about their actual troop distribution, we should not take this lightly. I'm guessing they've obtained a Conscript or two and are attemtping to misinform us.

Looking at it another way, three warriors is about as much as a civ would normally be expected to have at this point, especially considering the gold penalty for having more with just one city. So they may have been trying to impress us with the idea that they have a respectable early-game military and that the two warriors we found aren't their only ones. Too bad they don't know about the odd circumstances that led to our using chops to build two extra early warriors .

Not that I would rule out the possibility of misdirection (did he quote anything from their Book of Spearmen?), but it is quite possible that they simply miscalculated how strong a force we would view three warriors as being.

Nathan

	03-01-2003 15:15									#9
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I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this, but I get the impression that the Voxians may not be a very challenging team for us to deal with. Of course, this makes me doubly wary, as they may up to something. However, I'm guessing we should not have too much trouble convincing them a tech partnership is their best chance at continued success, once our empire blossoms faster than theirs.


Dominae

	03-01-2003 15:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this, but I get the impression that the Voxians may not be a very challenging team for us to deal with. Of course, this makes me doubly wary, as they may up to something. However, I'm guessing we should not have too much trouble convincing them a tech partnership is their best chance at continued success, once our empire blossoms faster than theirs.

They may also be bluffing, that build queue and all might just be some well planned diversion. Dissident and Eli are both rather good PBEM players, i'm in a few PBEM games with them and would not underestimate their MP playing skills.

IMO the worst mistake we can make is to underestimate the enemy. Trusting our team and our playing skills is always good, but still

	03-01-2003 15:51									#11
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Bah, the 3 warriors I already predicted before getting the message, so I think we can trust this. I'm even doubting that Thadeus is guarding their capital, it could very well be on the lookout nearby. But you can be sure they're building some more troops right now, possibly barracks, or possibly a spear.

I agree we don't need to underestimate them, but then again, I don't particularly trust them either. If their cities wouldn't be so far so that corruption would make them useless, I would prefer an early rush. Now, let's see if we can trade with them.

Oh, and guys, don't be too impatient: we can reach decisions in 2 days time but only because there is always one of our large group online to discuss things, if you only have a few members the timing will certainly slow down. We really need to give them at least 3 days before we can expect a full answer. If they're faster: good, if they're not it's still ok. Don't pressure them too hard if you don't get a reply for a day.

DeepO

	03-01-2003 18:21									#12
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I'm guessing that Eli and Dissident are the major players in Vox who call most of the shots. Does anyone here have any valuable PBEM experience with these two that he'd like to share?

	03-01-2003 18:59									#13
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I'm playing a PBEM with Dissidents participation, but we haven't met yet, so that I can't say anything.

	03-01-2003 21:04									#14
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quote: If they're faster: good, if they're not it's still ok. Don't pressure them too hard if you don't get a reply for a day.

Sure, no problem, but a I would expect a small note back saying,"need more time, will halt* warriors, expect the same from you"

* not even talking about returning to the bottleneck here, just halting until/while they discuss the other points of the proposal.

	03-01-2003 21:17									#15
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Ah, there is a difference between politeness and efficiency, I agree they could send a message like that. But again, they will probably need time to decide if they are going to stop their exploration, so even that in itself would be something to wait for... patience...

DeepO

	04-01-2003 02:10									#16
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What do we do if they politely refuse our "good faith" proposal and inform us that they would prefer to explore? Where does that put diplomatic relations between our teams?


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:20									#17
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I'd say the temperature goes down a few degrees.

	04-01-2003 02:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by alva I'd say the temperature goes down a few degrees.

Far enough that all our other proposals are moot?


Dominae

	04-01-2003 02:42									#19
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Far enough to start using a different tone.
(At least temporarely)

	04-01-2003 02:48									#20
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Hmmm... I don't think I'll agree. We might start opening our book of warriors, but other then that we should remain friendly for the moment... kissing their ass (Eiks.. flash's behind :sick: )

DeepO

	04-01-2003 03:00									#21
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I just had a look too see when they would meet our other 2 warriors (show of force, or book of warriors )
But that one doesn't help us much
(have to do it by diplomacy)

The reason I would take a firmer stance is that after all the discussion on trading minimaps/location/direction an whatsnot, it would be ashame to expose all to a single warrior who we let wander freely trough our lands.

(from the 'arguable' weakest team).

I'm pretty sure they will listen to reason..

(I've seen the same thing happen in the Euro game more then once now.
It's not because you say,
"oi mate, stop right there, or else"
, this should have any negative effect on future trade / diplomacy.
It's just a case of establishing borders IMHO

	04-01-2003 03:05									#22
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Hmmm... it's true when it comes to establishing borders, but in the Euro game those borders were made the moment we met, and not a few turns after that. I'm not sure we would be able to discuss borders on the NoF, if we met a few tiles of that... and I don't want to block the Neck with 3 warriors just because we met there.

Of course, it could be possible that you're talking about some other deal, I'm unaware of in the Euro game. If so: please elaborate

DeepO

	04-01-2003 03:28									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Far enough that all our other proposals are moot?

As far as I'm concerned, finding out whether the two of us are alone together is a LOT more important than whether or not the two civs explore within each other's borders. Keep in mind that we learn just as much about them as they learn about us if the first deal falls through, and our defenses are pretty solid relative to what they have nosing around. (And if there is someone else on the other side of them, or if they won't tell us, we pretty much have to have at least limited access through their territory to make contact or find out for ourselves about whether they have contact.)

Regarding the other deals, we could still deal in terms of mutual benefit, but any deal that requires significant amounts of trust would tend to be undermined if they keep nosing around our territory over our obejections.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 03:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Of course, it could be possible that you're talking about some other deal, I'm unaware of in the Euro game. If so: please elaborate

Until recently, Alva and I have tended to keep our relationship mostly secret (although Alex's scout has presumably helped him figure out a lot about it). But since one purpose of the Euro PBEM game was as a testbed for this one, I don't mind divulging state secrets from the lesser game for the benefit of the greater one (and I hope Alva agrees).

Alva and I actually met about the same time Alex and DeepO did, and we're so close together that our proximity could easily have resulted in violence. But instead, we embarked on a close tech partnership, and a key piece of the foundation of that relationship was an agreement not to nose around each other's territory. That made it a lot easier for me (and I imagine for Alva also) to focus primarily on economic rather than military matters.

Both the privacy deal between Alva and me and a later one between DeepO and me were negotiated very quickly after we met. But then again, none of us had the burden of needing to govern by committee.

Nathan

	04-01-2003 03:56									#25
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quote: (and I hope Alva agrees).

NO

quote: of needing to govern by committee.

Well, what it certainly did show was the power of trade..

My militairy is very weak(thats part of the reason that the scout is still alive!), but as long as Nathan doesn't backstab me, I just don't need one..for now.
even if he attacks me, I could still buy both DeepO and Alex into some kind of revenge deal by now( so don't don't even think about it )
(the fact that war id going on down south, does help of course )

	04-01-2003 04:14									#26
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quote: Regarding the other deals, we could still deal in terms of mutual benefit, but any deal that requires significant amounts of trust would tend to be undermined if they keep nosing around our territory over our obejections.

The thing is IMO, we CAN controll their in-game moves (without underestimating them, I guess it's safe to say that we are superior to them in CIV3 terms)
But whatever is done outside the game is well, uncontrolable...
(Selling info on where we are could be quite valuable to them, but as it stands they still don't know anything.)
That's why,again IMHO, it is VERY important to stop those warriors ASAP.

I'm not saying we should bully them. Something like:

quote: Hi guys, what's up? Not to presure you, take your time, but there is one small thing. Some of our more militant GS members are really getting worried about your troop movement. Could we get a clear cut answer on that one very, very soon. I wouldn't like to see our partnership end before it begins. Some of them are allready wondering wether we should even try for a longstanging partnership at all.. Which IMHO would be shame, don't you think so? Afterall, you can agree it is in both our teams best interest to have a fruitfull relationship, right? Hope to get your answer soon, I'll be online for another couple of hours... see you good luck, blahblah your ambassador

(just an example and quite rough, but you get the point)

Let them know we are serious about this, these things are a delicate balacing act, that needs work from both partners.

	04-01-2003 05:51									#27
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Alva, I agree on the intonation of that message, but not now, not yet. Give them time to discuss it, I'm sure they are smart enough what backstabbing us could lead to. They are still 8 turns away from our territory, so can't sell anything yet (instead of letting someone now we've met). In 2 turns, they are going to see 2 more warriors, I'm certain that by that time they will contact us. If not, we should contact them when we know they played their turn, and see 4 of our warriors. BTW, I would suspect that they too keep a scout on the back, shadowing Grog, instead of getting 2 scouts in our territory.

As to the Euro game: you two seem close enough, which was clear to me when Nathan didn't want warrior code from me, not questioning what deal he could get out of it. The war (euhm... for protection, of course ) efforts against Alexman would be a lot smoother if I wouldn't need to fear the both of you, and what you could do to my unsupecting flank. But when we are playing the honesty game here: don't either of you fear that one of these days, one of you is going to take a contract on the other? Not to give you any ideas, of course

DeepO

BTW, I agree with Nathan: the most important thing we can learn is if, and who they contacted besides us. If they don't want to trade techs, we can always extort it from them. Pure tech trades will be preferable, but we have a way out... as long as we can protect ourselves decently enough to not give Vox any ideas on quick gains.

	04-01-2003 06:25									#28
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quote: But when we are playing the honesty game here: don't either of you fear that one of these days, one of you is going to take a contract on the other? Not to give you any ideas, of course

Nice try,
Now that's what I call diplomacy...

quote: They are still 8 turns away from our territory, so can't sell anything yet (instead of letting someone now we've met

true,
but this will give them info when our future cities are settled.

	04-01-2003 06:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by alva true, but this will give them info when our future cities are settled.

Also true. the lesser they know, the better... but still, some patience please. I hate upsetting them by pushing them... certainly if we could be pushing the wrong buttons.

DeepO

	05-01-2003 00:41									#30
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We have a reply, Review this Discuss here. I have a turn chat to get to. I will be around, but focused on teh SP Demo game.

Mss