05-01-2003 00:52									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

First comment: next time we ask for a tighter deadline, so we aren't taken by our generous offers.

1. exploration was to be expected. They know we can't get farther, so don't want to deal anyway. Not much we can do atm. I would certainly tell them something in the sense of exploring our borders is in our eyes an act of aggression, not only crossing them, but getting too close. They should be careful.

2. Is a problem. They haven't figured out we know they have temples already, so I would certainly mention this (maybe even hinting that we suspected them to have met someone religious). Might impress them If we didn't need a tech trade partner, I would forgo all trade contact, and rush them, contacting that other team fast. Otherwise, we trade the wheel for spears, and beeline for writing. Can we steal diplo contacts from an embassy? after that, we don't need them anymore. I don't want them to be a middle man, and they are in a perfect position for that, which is terrible for us.

3. lux: disguise it as we need to know whether building a road to them fast should get high priority or not.

4. problem. Ask if they would be willing to keep it a secret that the two of us have met. Ask if it would be possible to meet with them too, by giving us passage of one warrior on the isthmus

5. of course they are surprised, but keep it a secret that we were thinking of a 2 tile isthmus, not a 1 tile.

Sorry, got to run...
DeepO

	05-01-2003 00:54									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have just reviewed the rely and believe that the temperature has dropped a bit. I am beginning to wonder if we should finish them off soon and find out who they contacted for ourselves

Mss

	05-01-2003 00:57									#33
	Remove this text

How do we know about the temples? Diplomacy screen?

Mss

	05-01-2003 01:06									#34
	Suffering from ads?

quote: I don't want them to be a middle man, and they are in a perfect position for that,

1.If we somehow can get a message out to the other team, they could be onclined to stop trading with VOX(public forum?)
2. For the moment we can still argue we can this do; but this does hold many points that could backfire..

I need more time to think, and energy, Grog wants food .
I'll be back later..

	05-01-2003 01:09									#35
	Suffering from ads?

quote: If we could get 4 more warriors asap, we could effectively block their further success south.

Allthough I don't like the idea, I'm affraid we are going to have to do this...

	05-01-2003 01:10									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: How do we know about the temples? Diplomacy screen?

I think our specialists figuered this out through the trade screen.

	05-01-2003 02:21									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

Perhaps we should come up to all the other teams with this offer:
We ask them whether they have met Vox Controli yet, and tell them that if their answer is positive then we can lead them to us as well, but we'll require a minimap with Vox's position marked on it as proof that they're not bluffing. If this idea succeeds then we'll get both Vox's exact location and contact with the outside world (other than Vox).
I understand the drawbacks: we'll be telling people that we've already met Vox. That's why we should not send this proposal simultaneously to all the other teams but send it to one team at a time.

	05-01-2003 03:55									#38
	Get a bigger avatar today!

We need to send a clear message that either exploring each other's side of the isthmus is okay, or it is not. If it is okay, they need to allow us through. If it is not okay, they need to withdraw. Any other action on their part is hypocritical and constitutes a clear use of military power to gain an advantage at our expense; in short, it is very nearly an act of war against us. Such action will inevitably have a major chilling effect on future relations.

	05-01-2003 04:00									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

IMO you are very right, ATM it is too much in their favour.
Can thay see Grog? He is standing on that hill, so I guess they can.
Well, we do need to be quick.
Any native English here to set up a first draft to send to VOX?

	05-01-2003 04:17									#40
	something I find strange !! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: 4. Regarding contact with other civilizations, yes, we have met another civilization.

How many warriors have they?? Surely they have at least one patrolling the border with their other contact.
Have they explored all their lands too?

I'm beginning to suspect, they have not met anyone else at this moment yet.
Any comments?

	05-01-2003 04:17									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DeepO 2. Is a problem. They haven't figured out we know they have temples already

If they have traded the Cer.Bur tech, then they have contacted either Neu Demogyptica - Arabs, or Roleplay - Spain, assuming that they have traded the tech from someone's initial techs and not popped it form a hut or researched it themselves (not likely - if i were them, i would have gone for Iron Working)

So the inquiries about "have you contacted Vox" could be limited to those two teams, since they are the only ones with the starting tech of Ceremonial Burial.

	05-01-2003 04:20									#42
	Re: something I find strange !! Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by alva How many warriors have they?? Surely they have at least one patrolling the border with their other contact. Have they explored all their lands too? I'm beginning to suspect, they have not met anyone else at this moment yet. Any comments?

They may be bluffing on the contacts; if they have only one direction left to explore, like us, they may fortifying on the isthmus with their last warrior, if their cities are relatively close to the isthmus and they do not worry about the barbs.

	05-01-2003 04:22									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Or someone brokered it......

	05-01-2003 04:23									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

I mean, we got 2 warriors out from the lumberjacking, and i seriously doubt that they have done that. But, then again, they are Industrious too, so, who knows.

	05-01-2003 04:26									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by alva Or someone brokered it......

If that would be the case, then we would be in most unfortunate position regarding to the isthmus, if there are atleast 2 other civs in addition to Vox behind it.

	05-01-2003 04:33									#46
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I know I'm not a diplomat, but the economic and tactical remifications of this situation are so enormous that I can't resist sticking my nose in. Here's a draft of a possible response for the diplomats' consideration.

quote: You responded to our first proposal with the words, "Regarding the question of further exploration, we feel that at this early stage of our existence, it is important to both our civilizations to learn more about the world around us. We of Vox Controli recognize your right to expand your horizons. We humbly request that you recognize ours." However, the positioning of your warrior Thadeus raises serious questions about your sincerity. If you truly believe in our right to expand our horizons, why do you have a warrior positioned in a way that seems deliberately designed to prevent us from doing so? And if you do not in fact believe that exploration on each other's side of the isthmus is a right, how do you justify your insistance on continuing to explore our side? At first glance, your actions appear to be the height of hypocrisy. Worse, they appear to be a use of military power to try to gain a clear advantage over us, which would not be far from constituting an act of war. You appear to be implicitly saying that might makes right, and that it is okay for you to grant yourselves access that you deny us merely because you have the power to do so. We can only hope that this situation stems merely from an oversight on your part, and that on further reflection, you will recognize the importance of reciprocity in relationships between nations. Otherwise, the effect on relations between our peoples cannot be anything but chilling. How can two nations possibly build a lasting friendship when one uses military power to unilaterally grant itself an advantage over the other?

And to give it further weight, attach not just the ambassador's signature but also the signatures of Sir Ralph as team leader, myself as chief economist, and Arrian and Theseus as joint chiefs of military operations.

Edit:

Incorporated Alva's "try to."

	05-01-2003 04:43									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: 1. Regarding the question of further exploration, we feel that at this early stage of our existence, it is important to both our civilizations to learn more about the world around us. We of Vox Controli recognize your right to expand your horizons. We humbly request that you recognize ours.

(our answer: note that this a work in progress)
You of Vox recognice our right to learn more about the world, yet you block the way!!
1 -We must ask you to let us through
2 - stop your exploring down south

( -If they don’t let us through, this will indicate, we are very close to their borders
(if so)
- they can’t refuse halting their warriors)

	05-01-2003 04:52									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

We probably also ought to contact both of the other religious civs, Roleplay and Demogyptica (one at a time), let them know that we have encountered Vox, and ask if they have. (They are, after all, the prime suspects.) We could also point out that if they have, there would be significant advantages if we could trade technology directly rather than allowing Vox to profit from all trades by playing middleman. If Vox faces diplomatic pressure from two civs, they might be more willing to relent and allow contact.

Nathan

	05-01-2003 04:54									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like it Nathan

Perhaps dropping the word "war" (to soon? I agree to that word for the next message though )

hmm, maybe ;aggresion ? ( Damned, My English isn't good enough..)

quote: power to gain a clear advantage over us

hmm, to try to gain an advantage...
(we don't want them to THINK we are weak..)

And try to give them a backdoor, an excuse to give in...
something like this

quote: We can only hope that this situation stems merely from an oversight on your part,

We are sure that this situation is merely...

That way, they have the chance to say,:
"what?, oh yeah, oops, sorry.. haha, seems like we missed that,"

	05-01-2003 05:02									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I like Nathan's letter (no time for commets). We need to send a clear message that will (hopefully) get a clear answer.

	05-01-2003 05:08									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmm...
Just as i suspected- the winds are blowing in the ways of war, and Vox have (almost) every advantage. I think that any compromise with the Vox, when they have a clear advantage would be foolish, since the full potential of blocking the isthmus can't be exploited- we should have no fear of being stern, and even subtely threatning them- should their warriors continue on their march north (potentialy taking the isthmus with two warriors and/or taking out those warriors on our land- as an act of self defence).

On this note, i should also repeat my plan- to expose information of our lux and contacts, to other teams- in order to find out who is out there behind the Vox, and to better position ourself in the coming conflict. That is, of course unless diplomacy works it out- which seems unlikely after Vox's chilling responses, and Eli's searches for an attack strategy against our fast moving WC. But, we can always hope.

	05-01-2003 05:24									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Would we really capture the full seriousness of how we view their actions if we don't say that they're close to being enough to start a war over? Certainly, we don't want a war right now, but if they persist in their current course of action, aren't they practically guaranteeing war about as soon as we can get the appropriate military techs and Monarchy? The goal (as I see it) is to convince them of the seriousness of their actions without making actual threats or telegraphing when and how the military response would come.

I think "we can only hope that" provides a sufficient way out. If they give the "what?, oh yeah, oops, sorry.. haha, seems like we missed that," response, they are merely confirming our hopes. But "we can only hope that" also carries a connotation that we may be preparing for what to do if our hopes are proven wrong.

Nathan

	05-01-2003 05:27									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is indeed a last ditch effort- if they won't draw their forces now- what are our options? open threats? early war?
I think we should seriously consider attacking their two scouts, when we have the chance for it, even without warning, perhaps after us telling them that we consider the isthmust between us as a border. This gives us excuse of attacking them- which is an action we must consider, given the danger of them scouting us, and probably preparing for war.

	05-01-2003 05:42									#54
	Put an end to popups!

Maybe we could consider hitting their warriors when we have the advantage of veteran warriors vs. regular. ("Your warriors are have violated the Reciprocity in Exploration Act, and have been sentenced to death. We do not wish war, but we cannot tolerate a prolonged, deliberate violation of our laws and our territorial integrity.") But I don't like the idea of attacking without both qualitative and quantitative superiority.

Nathan

	05-01-2003 05:50									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Achieving a local superiority of numbers is possible even right now- if the Hack and Ouch move to cover the patch of grassland between the mountain ranges, an assault against the warrior would most likely end in Willy's demise. And in 3 turns- we get an extra warrior, and i won't object sending him- to make sure we end the threat of them scouting all over our lands.

	05-01-2003 05:55									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: why do you have a warrior positioned in a way that seems deliberately designed to prevent us from doing so

[vox]
no, he's just here to prevent barbs comming through..
[/vox]
[gs
well, will you move him
[/gs
[vox]
we will have to discus that thoroughly with the whole team..
[/vox]

	05-01-2003 06:00									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by zeit Achieving a local superiority of numbers is possible even right now- if the Hack and Ouch move to cover the patch of grassland between the mountain ranges, an assault against the warrior would most likely end in Willy's demise. And in 3 turns- we get an extra warrior, and i won't object sending him- to make sure we end the threat of them scouting all over our lands.

As I recall, all terrain offers a defense bonus, so odds that we lose a warrior in an attack are higher than the odds that Vox loses one. Numerical superiority could offset that somewhat, but if we get unlucky, Vox ends up with veterans instead of regulars and our defense is seriously weakened. That's why I want qualitative as well as quantitative superiority if we're going to consider an attack.

Nathan

	05-01-2003 06:06									#58
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by alva [vox] no, he's just here to prevent barbs comming through.. [/vox] [gs well, will you move him [/gs [vox] we will have to discus that thoroughly with the whole team.. [/vox]

[gs - alternate version]
If you move your warrior aside just long enough for us to pass, that will not pose any risk of barbarians' entering your lands. Your actions, not your words, are what will ultimately tell us your purpose in positioning a warrior there.
[/gs]

Edit: Minor change in wording

	05-01-2003 06:08									#59
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Duplicate; please disregard.

	05-01-2003 06:11									#60
	Put an end to popups!

We could follow DeepO's plan and let EotS produce warriors instead of settlers for a couple of turns. We have 2 warriors shadowing theirs and if we make 4 new (2 in both EotS and Hurricane, our local superiority will be 3:1 and the odds will be clearly to our advantage.