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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
What in my message are you reading as a demand for trade deals? I don't recall saying anything about trade at all.
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I threw that in because that's probably what the Voxians hear from us. First we propose a bunch of trade options, then we declare war because we don't get our way. We need to be clear about what we want (i.e. them out of territory, for starters).
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
And Vox could solve the problems of apparent insincerity and hypocrisy by either withdrawing their units or letting ours through; they wouldn't have to do both.
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Agreed. 'Apparent' is an important word here. I think we should make it clear what Gathering Storm wants and why, then declare war if we cannot come to an agreement with Vox. No need to get angry just yet (maybe in a couple of turns).
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
As for the mention of war, if you don't think Vox's actions are likely to lead to war, you must not be reading the threads around here. At the very least, a police action to deal with the intruders seems almost inevitable if they persist.
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Yes, but this is our decision, not theirs. Again, I don't think they're doing anything wrong: so they block an isthmus and explore the southern continent, this is unfortunate for us, but not an aggressive move on their part. If we declare war, it's because we're power-hungry, not because they're treating us unfairly.
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
I can understand Vox's desire to exploit an advantage just fine. But if Vox has no respect for our desires, why should we have any respect for theirs beyond what we regard as being to our own advantage?
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I completely agree. We still have to think of our long-term success, however. I'm thinking they've won the battle, but not necessarily the war (say...that has a nice ring to it!).
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
If Hurricane has "neither a Barracks nor useful units to build," won't it be high time for Hurricane to build a barracks?
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I misspoke, my fault. Warriors would be a great unit to build right now, but prepping them with a Barracks would defeat the purpose (positional and temporal advantage).
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm just trying to point out that that mode won't necessarily be our best use of our furs.
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The "best use" economically doesn't always match with other needs, namely diplomacy and warfare.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Yes, but this is our decision, not theirs. Again, I don't think they're doing anything wrong: so they block an isthmus and explore the southern continent, this is unfortunate for us, but not an aggressive move on their part. If we declare war, it's because we're power-hungry, not because they're treating us unfairly.
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By the SP rules, they're doing nothing wrong. But this is MP, and humans should not be expected to be as stupid as the AIs are about simply throwing up our hands and giving a rival a major advantage. I don't view it as power-hungry for us simply to demand reciprocity. I view it as power-hungry of them to take advantage of terrain features so they can get an advantage they deny us.
quote:
The "best use" economically doesn't always match with other needs, namely diplomacy and warfare. |
That is very often true in emergency situations, but in the long term, in non-emergency situations, what is best economically tends also to create the strongest military position.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
I don't view it as power-hungry for us simply to demand reciprocity.
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Demanding reciprocity will only work if we're disussing other deals. If they come to us and ask to trade techs, then we can expect them to leave our lands to garner trust. We could demand that they "reciprocally" give us the comm to the other civ they've contacted, or only REX as fast as we are, but that doesn't make much sense. Similarly with their advantage at the isthmus, because they're all geographical/positional advantages. Since we're not at Peace, really, their neutrality means they can fairly do whatever they want. It's our job to react however we see fit.
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
That is very often true in emergency situations, but in the long term, in non-emergency situations, what is best economically tends also to create the strongest military position. |
Many people here would classify this as an emergency situation. More pointedly, losing 1 Shield to a Warrior is hardly going to reduce our overall economic position, even if compounded across all the Forest tiles we're likely to cut down.
Dominae
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Dominae
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Hm, this could turn into another economic debate. I'll trust that whatever we decide diplomatically, the Economists will provide the necessary support (within reason, of course).
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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While making a quick trip to a store, I came up with an alternative idea for how to approach Vox about our current concerns. This approach is a bit more indirect and (I hope) a lot more good-humored, but it gets the same points across.
quote:
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,
Since you have been so kind as to share with us passages from the One Book, we would like to share with you a passage from the Book of the Storm, specifically from Wisdom 3:1-2.
“Blessed are they who treat others as they would wish to be treated, for their rewards are respect and trust all the days of their lives.
But cursed are the hypocrites who demand from others that which they will not give themselves,
For the seeds of anger and distrust they sow may flower into the fruit of their destruction.”
Some of our more suspicious citizens have expressed concern that you may be in danger of violating that passage by claiming to recognize our right to expand our horizons yet blocking us from actually exercising that right. Such action would certainly be the height of hypocrisy if you intend to keep exploring in South Estonia. But it is our hope that those voices of fear have misunderstood Thaedus’s role, and that his job is only to keep out barbarians, not to block the legitimate work of peaceful explorers. We certainly would not want our new friends to incur the wrath of the Lord of Storms who watches over us all. (And truth be told, we also fear the actions of our own more warlike leaders who are using this situation as an excuse to demand a death penalty for any “spy” who approaches our territory.) |
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Dominae
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Nathan, I like that one better too. Just a couple of modifications would make it perfect, IMO:
1. Addition of the following (hopefully) rhetorical questions: "Do you not hold the free exchange of gold, luxuries and technology in high regard? Are you willing to reject a chance at trade of these riches over a mere territorial dispute?"
This threatens their economic success, and not just their continued existence (truth be told, I'm sure they know they could survive quite a while even if there is a constant state of war). Maybe they will come to their sense and realise they could actually benefit from trading with us.
2. "... by claiming to recognize our right to expand our horizons yet preventing us from actually exercising that right by blocking the way to the fabled North Estonia".
The reason for the additional phrase is to hint that there might be more to explore in South Estonia that we've already explored (i.e. South Estonia is a big place, perhaps with neighbors). Without this phrase, the Voxians would be able to figure out we're alone on a average-sized landmass south of the isthmus.
Other than that, everything looks good. Nice effort on a more good-natured draft. Maybe our teams will be trading partners after all, and we'll just laugh at the hint of tensions early on.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
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Here's an edited version incorporating variants of some suggestions from Dominae.
quote:
Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,
Since you have been so kind as to share with us passages from the One Book, we would like to share with you a passage from the Book of the Storm, specifically from Wisdom 3:1-2.
“Blessed are they who treat others as they would wish to be treated, for their rewards are respect and trust all the days of their lives.
But cursed are the hypocrites who demand from others that which they will not give themselves,
For the seeds of anger and distrust they sow may flower into the fruit of their destruction.”
Some of our more suspicious citizens have expressed concern that you may be in danger of violating that passage by claiming to recognize our right to expand our horizons yet deliberately blocking our ability to enter the fabled lands of North Estonia in order to exercise that right. Such action would certainly be the height of hypocrisy if you intend to keep exploring in South Estonia. But it is our hope that those voices of fear have misunderstood Thaedus’s role, and that his job is only to keep out barbarians, not to block the legitimate work of peaceful explorers. We certainly would not want our new friends to incur the wrath of the Lord of Storms who watches over us all.
(And truth be told, we also fear the actions of our own more warlike leaders who are using this situation as an excuse to demand a death penalty for any “spy” who approaches our territory. Even more moderate elements are leery of scientific exchanges or other trade deals while the matter remains in doubt, and such a strain on relations cannot be good for either nation.) |
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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Phew... this thread grows faster then I can read it! Finally reached the end 
A few comments:
- I would give them our map, if we are allowed to explore theirs. Otherwise there simply has to be some action, so it's good to hint at that in a message to them
- the replies I saw focused exclusively on the exploration issue, which may be the main part, but we have to tell them other things to. After all, we asked for 5 points, they answered us on 5 points, so we need to reply to at least some of those to. They said they have met, if we want to stay polite, we need to say we are still exploring, and they are the first we meet, but hope to establish contact with other nations soon.
- In the reply, you twice accuse them of being hypocrits. They are, of course, but diplomatically speaking once would be enough. Find another word second time, our book of wisdom can be cruder, but there is no need to repeat it. They will get the message.
- Spies: again, quite strongly put. Something more mild would be better
- we should hint at military strength, I think. We can assume by now they have 4 units (or the power graph should indicate another bump), we are still the stronger party. Maybe include something like 'our military strength is already the larger of our 2 nations, we would hope we can use our resources more peacefully from now on.' Might also include a reply to their surprise as of how much we know of the land: we can simply say it seems we have more then their 4 scouts, and used them for what they were build: exploration. We don't want to turn them into warriors.
- further, comment on the strategy thread: they are right in fearing fastmovers, as these are, in our mind, better on defense.
- it is good to hint at our warcaptains, but farther then that I wouldn't go. Already this reply is a direct threat... not the best start of a trade relation. Maybe include some sentense which essentially says 'we really would hope a peaceful relation ensues, so that in a few centuries we both laugh at the initial tension after meeting us'
a bit related: RPG asked for minimap information, maybe we should exchange it, if only to know they met Vox. or something else can be done with them, they seem more eager at a diplo relation.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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Yes, minimap exchanging need to be addressed again. But keep in mind it is still very possible that Vox got CB from a hut, so the ones they've met aren't religious. Or they traded it from them, but the mystery civ got it from a hut. The religious civs are a bit more likely, but there are a lot of other possibilities.
What about the other comments, aren't we inciting (Alva: 'ophitsen'... from my school Prisma. might not be the best translation ) ourselves here, posting a too harsh response simply because one says this is an act of aggression, the next one has dreams of going to war, the following on our team builds on that, and in a few pages of text we lost our initial goal and only see how much we can gain? Everybody seems to assume all deals are off, because they have the momentary advantage. I agree this doesn't look good, but take it easy people, blocking our path while exploring themselves is not a war declaration (yet)! I think (shotgun) diplomacy is in order here before we commit to anything else.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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that was what I had in mind, Vox got us all aroused 
Nah, worked up might be better.
But seriously, I think me might be overreacting here, I too like a good rush (although I don't go all the way like Arrian or Theseus (or Sir Ralph) would), but still think other options are better. The next few diplomatic contacts need to be faster, so what about starting to plan for this?
BTW, Where is Mesh when you need him? I haven't seen our diplo chief commenting on this, and in general only a few of our diplomats. All comments are of course welcome, and this is a very serious problem where the whole team needs to have its say, but I feel the diplomats are understaffed here while it is clearly a diplo problem.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
1. Regarding the question of further exploration, we feel that at this early stage of our existence, it is important to both our civilizations to learn more about the world around us. We of Vox Controli recognize your right to expand your horizons. We humbly request that you recognize ours.
However, this being said, we also clearly recognize your sovereignty over your lands. We promise to fully respect the borders of your civilization, and further promise to commit no acts of aggression in any way, shape, or form. |
Okay, I went back, to see the exact wording of their message. Further, let's see it from their perspective for once, instead of focusing on our own needs.
Basically, this is very polite, and friendly, and if it wasn't for Eli's strategy thread, there would be absolutely no reason to suspect foul play. If the Ishtmus was ours, we would block it immediately, certainly after learning another civ is just accross. Also, note that they ask to explore, and want to give the right to explore. So, no threats now, simply ask them to pass. There is a good chance they will agree.
Why wouldn't they agree?
1) they want to block our exploring. Of course, they know it would suite them if we don't know their position. But they have to realise that by exploring themselves, it would be seen as an act of aggression. So there is a good chance this is not an issue to them.
2) Most likely, their biggest fear is that we would take the Isthmus, thus blocking their expansion onto our side. most of the blocks on these necks don't come from wanting to keep someone out, but allowing to pass it yourself. This would be my biggest concern if someone asked to pass a block. Of course, they have to realize that we have enough warriors close by to block them anyhow, only one tile further (and with a langer maginot line, thus inherently weaker).
So, why don't we propose to them that if they would allow us to pass the Isthmus, we give the property right of it to them, solemnly pledging to not pass it, or build close to it (so it would fall in our official territory)? Effectivly, we would say to them: your cultural borders have not reached so far, but in exchange of being allowed to pass, we consider the Isthmus within your cultural border. All acts concerning the tile from our side can be seen as aggresive, and believe us, we want to trade, and not spend resources on aggression. It would be a serious incentive for them to let us pass, and should be a lot politer, and diplomatic then simply tell them they have to move or face the consequences.
Last comment: notice that they promise to not commit any acts of aggresion, in any shape or form. They sound scared, and most likely they are. We can't safely promise to not be the first to start a war, as we agreed to play honorably, and in 50 turns, we might want to take out Vox. What we can do, however, is state that their current acts are on the brink of aggresion to us, and that possible implications this has are actively discussed in our forum. Again, it would be good to play the role of ambassador here: Mss is the middleman between the two civs, and only slightly on our side. He has to convey the message like: "I'm sorry, but I can't hold back the beast much longer. Give me something to calm my team down!"
DeepO
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05-01-2003 09:50
, I do. But it makes things for (us?) me even more complicated then they allready are.
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