16-02-2003 01:06									#31
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Nathan, my thoughts exactly. I don't think that any of RP's offers are very good, but we can use that in our negotiations of course.

But keep this in mind: if we want to keep friendly relations with RP, we need to trade with them. If they suspect Vox is like our little brother to us (we share everything atm), I think their feelings for us will detoriate.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 01:09									#32
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X-posted:

Waht about telling them that Vox has been asking us for a shared gold cost: they seem to be selling our contacts to everyone they meet, and dare to ask us for some extra gold as part of the deal? Which would explain that we're only paying 8 gold for contact with GoW, as it is already (part of) a deal by GoW, where GoW buys contact to us?

DeepO

	16-02-2003 01:15									#33
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I don't see how contact with ND can give us any benefits at least in the next 3-4 turns.
It is possible that RP wants to get into the war as well, and they need the gold for upgrades. In that case, they'd be much more interested in selling that we'd be interested in buying.
Let's play the waiting game for now and let the price drop by itself.

	16-02-2003 01:24									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO But keep this in mind: if we want to keep friendly relations with RP, we need to trade with them. If they suspect Vox is like our little brother to us (we share everything atm), I think their feelings for us will detoriate.

We've already made RP a pretty firm offer for a future trade when we get CoL and they get Literature, so it's not as if they'll view us as uninterested in trading at all just because we aren't inclined to pay gold for something right now.

Nathan

	16-02-2003 01:40									#35
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True, Nathan... I forgot about that. It seems so far in the future (2 weeks!), and no real promise of a trade was commited this far, that it is easy to see our relation as too slow, even if it's not true.

Re: Vox: maybe it would be a good idea to include in next message to Vox some kind of message across of: "Look at the mess on the other continent, glad we are living friendly side by side. We'll both gain considerable opposed to all the warring civs..." Just some chit-chat, which can only make them more gracious to us

DeepO

	11-04-2003 00:26									#36
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bump for Shiber

	11-04-2003 00:53									#37
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(continuing from the other thread)

Hmm.. you may have a point. But I assume that RP knows that GoW has built 2 island cities close to Lego, I was trying to get to that without telling them we knew of those cities.

As to hinting that we want any action against Lego: I didn't do that, did I? I tried to be careful to avoid it, but it's a thin line in those kind of unofficial communications.

DeepO

	11-04-2003 01:46									#38
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It was more a warning. I think Togas is trying to get us on the bad side of Lego. You didn't really address it directly, which is probably the way we should go for now. If we ever say something to the effect of 'sure, let's talk about anti-Lego possibilities", Togas' next message will probably be "We will deny this message ever was sent. GS is considering an alliance against you. We just thought you should know" sent to Lego.

quote: Our biggest fear is Lego. They are refusing to sell their map, and GoW is currently exploring their coast. Thay appear to have a very very large landmass and are happily expanding and growing without any interference. As it appears, they will win this game shortly. Depending on how things go here durring the mideval age, we may have to discuss this in the future. I advise you to start considering this now as planning will be key.

	11-04-2003 01:50									#39
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Togas is definately trying to manipulate us, but I wouldn't mind playing along, as long as they can't sent messages like that to Lego (which they most certainly will do). It's the only way we can do the same to them, because I'm not convinced yet they are immune for this kind of propaganda. Yes, they are puppetmasters for sure, but would they notice when someone is pulling their strings?

DeepO

	11-04-2003 01:52									#40
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BTW, I think I'm going to mention to vondrack that RP is seeking an alliance

(unofficially, of course)

DeepO

	11-04-2003 02:16									#41
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Another beauty from the e-mail:

quote: Chivalry doesn't interest us, but I am sure ND and GoW are VERY interested as that will provide them with their UU's. At that time will things get interesting here on Bob, I am quite sure. Therefore, we are activally interested in making sure that they DON'T get that particular tech until we say so. Any thoughs on this?

Note the wording: until we say so. They really consider themselves puppetmasters

As to the deal: we can tell them we can't keep them from getting it, however, for the right price, we can delay it for a while. It's difficult to estimate an eta on chivalry with the current situation, but we are relatively certain that we will be first to get it, and if GoW and ND are smart, they will buy it from us instead of going for it themselves.

However, we do not lie, so if we tell GoW and ND they will get it at a certain turn, they will get it for sure. If they want to delay chivalry, they need to come up with a deal very soon...

DeepO

	11-04-2003 02:27									#42
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Perhaps RP were lying when they said that GoW made an offer for Feudalism... ?

	11-04-2003 02:32									#43
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Nah... but they may have been lieing about timing: GoW could have made that offer 5 turns ago.

It's always possible that they have lied to us, but it's more RPs style to simply tell half-thruths in such a way that a different thruth is formed. Quite artistic even, those lawyer practises

DeepO

	11-04-2003 05:01									#44
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quote: We will probably go with them in this regards as we are hurting for gold right now (we have been purchasing most of our techs as we are commercial).

Something I didn't spot at first: they claim they have no gold left, but they wouldn't be researching right now, and be in Monarchy, being nearly as good as us commerce wise (us having more cities, of course)? Doesn't seem right. Maybe they have paid too much on upgrades / manipulation of Bob / Vox. Maybe it's simply not true. But there is no reason why they couldn't afford a 12 gpt deal, if it would start in a couple of turns.

DeepO

	11-04-2003 18:28									#45
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We all know RP likes to play games...
But for the sake of it, let's go along with it. If anyone should talk to Togas or any of his merry men and they try to mess with your mind, pretend that you are taking their bait. Don't act too gullible though, or they might suspect.
Only if they are convinced that we are taking their baits can we make their efforts turn against them (as was successfully demonstrated yesterday, thanks to DeepO's comments to RP and Aeson and Alva on #GoW.

	12-04-2003 01:46									#46
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RP refused to buy Feud from us, saying they already got an offer from GoW to get it once cleared, and at 75 gold. I told them that we will try to meet that price at that time, but have no time for those discussions now (I hate it when they would be able to tell our price to GoW, asking them to underbid, and tell that price to us again.)

I wouldn't mind telling GF that RP is happily setting our two teams up against each other, and try to agree on a secret trade. Instead of trying to outbid each others, we could simply say: "No, get it for 75 gold from GoW then", and split the profit between GoW and us. We couldn't get more then 40 gold out of the deal anyway, with a tech 10 turns old.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 01:50									#47
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Good idea.

	12-04-2003 01:52									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO RP refused to buy Feud from us, saying they already got an offer from GoW to get it once cleared, and at 75 gold. I told them that we will try to meet that price at that time, but have no time for those discussions now (I hate it when they would be able to tell our price to GoW, asking them to underbid, and tell that price to us again.)

Hmm, I wonder where the RP gold could have gone. Hmm.

quote: Originally posted by DeepO I wouldn't mind telling GF that RP is happily setting our two teams up against each other, and try to agree on a secret trade. Instead of trying to outbid each others, we could simply say: "No, get it for 75 gold from GoW then", and split the profit between GoW and us. We couldn't get more then 40 gold out of the deal anyway, with a tech 10 turns old. DeepO

Good idea letting GF know whats going on, though I'm sure he already knows. If they want to go ten turns without Feu, then thats fine. I hope ND and GoW take the opportunity to take them out in the interim.

	12-04-2003 01:58									#49
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Didn't RP say that GoW wanted Monarchy too? So is that price 75g + Monarchy, or just 75g?

If we split profits with GoW, we need to know if Monarchy would be coming our way too (HG is somewhat worthwhile to build if we don't have anything else to do).

	12-04-2003 02:52									#50
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It could be a total bogus price, to start us first at underbidding. Maybe GoW hasn't contacted them at all, or they did, but didn't mention their offer.

First step would be to mention to GF in a next chat or so that RP is telling us the deal, plus the price, and ask for confirmation. If GF agrees (and we should make clear that it is certainly no problem to us, no hard feelings, and no offensive tone of voice), we can proceed, asking them for a deal. We'll know then what they are going to get, so we can start negotiating from there onwards. E.g. monarchy from GoW would be nice already, but if that's not possible, another 30 gold would be nice too. I don't think we will be able sell it to RP, as they will always try to use our offer to get a better price elsewhere. It may be clear by now that they do not want to further strengthen us, and in fact will try their best to block our progress as much as possible. It's stupid, because if they would ensure our friendship, they could use that to conquer Bob after the riders have swarmed.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 04:00									#51
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We really need to put loger NDA to tech trade. It has to remain worthwile researching it. Middleage is very suited for this IMHO..

	12-04-2003 04:12									#52
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I was thinking the same thing. 10 turns is not even enough, each monopoly we get puts only 10 turns difference between those who get the tech from us, and those who don't.

I was thinking, would it be an idea to ask for increasing NDAs? Say next tech 12 turns, the one after that 14, etc.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 04:52									#53
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Even longer IMO, they need to feel 'pressured' to buy it from us, as to not get left behind.
Especially with war tech.
I doubt RP would be willing to wait 20 turns to get it from GoW, that would either force them to buy it from us, or doing the research themselves...

	12-04-2003 05:04									#54
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Yes, but we can't ask 20 turns immediately, if we don't want to be faced by a trade embargo by everyone. If we don't have Lego's full support, that is becoming our biggest risk: being left out of the tech race. So building it up easily will at first leave some the teams without cash 10 turns behind (RP now), but with good prospects to cath up later. By gradually increasing, they do not see the moment exactly where it would become too costly for them to wait, and buy it at open market prices.

One of the other problems here is that everybody know realizes that GS is taking advantage of a tech monopoly. Vox is not getting Feud, while all other teams can get it. We are 'abusing' a monopoly, which will mean that in the future, teams will grow wary of giving us such a monopoly. Right now, everything is fine, as we can outresearch any other team, but that might change... too long NDAs might not be the best for us, because we would become known as monopolists. And who likes those.

DeepO

	12-04-2003 05:14									#55
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Lets save longer NDA's for the next tech. Education (if we can get Theology from Lego) would be a good one to put a long NDA on. That keeps other teams from Universities for longer, widening the research gap, and they fall farther behind.

Having RP and Lego call our NDA's and wait might be a good thing for us in the long run if we progressively make them longer. It slows down overall tech rate, and gives us more and more advantage for each new tech.

	12-04-2003 05:35									#56
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Certainly we are talking here about future techs, not the current one! But yes, Education sounds a very good tech to do it with, even better then the obvious military ones. The military ones aren't going to be researched by us alone, if they are critical (like Chivalry is for both GoW and ND, which they will get themselves most likely), but education might be if we can arrange something with Lego. Bob will hopefully be too busy fighting wars.

DeepO

	17-04-2003 01:58									#57
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RP's latest, 4/15? message:

Another example of them "giving" us information.

1. They've seen 23 immortals-

-Vox is giving them screenshots of their army?



2. Vox is going to use a scorched earth policy while retreating?

-duh, and that is probably better for us if they abandon their own cities, won't have to deal with the whipped citizens.

3. Bob information-

Is this news? Note all of the geographical information. They surely know that we have their map. Another instance of a lot of detail while little new substance. Right out of Togas' handbook from the ISDG.

My favorite was this quote: "the general consensus is that in the initial rush, they will punch deep into your territory. Weather or not they can maintain their momentum after punching their spearhead into your belly is what will determine the war."

not a very neutral statement, eh? Seems to betray their true feelings, I would say. Won't they be in for a shock when they realize that Vox has been stopped at the gates of, not the capitol, but the border town Arashi. Oh, its on a hill, holy sh!t, that wasn't planned for. Pikes, wtf. ROFLMAO.

	17-04-2003 02:14									#58
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On the other hand, the info is reasonable with what we know/anticipate.
-
I think teams are starting to doubt, Vox will win and are thus trying to appear as neutral as possible.
-
Don't forget that with communications the militairy advisor can give a very misleading picture
ex:
Vox opens the militairy advisor sees we are weak and so is GoW, then they ask GoW to see how they compare to us. Now if they are also strong compared to us, that's a eygh 'doubleweak' .

	17-04-2003 02:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by alva On the other hand, the info is reasonable with what we know/anticipate.

Sure its reasonable, they are trying to appear like they are giving us information, be our buddies instead of our brutus. But they also haven't told us something we didn't already know, you know? the 23 immortals, verify? please send the screenie along if you are serious

quote: Originally posted by alva - I think teams are starting to doubt, Vox will win and are thus trying to appear as neutral as possible. - Don't forget that with communications the militairy advisor can give a very misleading picture ex: Vox opens the militairy advisor sees we are weak and so is GoW, then they ask GoW to see how they compare to us. Now if they are also strong compared to us, that's a eygh 'doubleweak' .

good points. I think we are what, average now with other teams other than vox?

	17-04-2003 02:20									#60
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As for RP's map analysis, it's pretty well founded.

(using likely peaceful borders)

203 tiles on our continent
683 tiles total on BOB

265 tiles from RP's northern border south on BOB
231 tiles north of RP's border to south of GoW's for ND
187 tiles left for GoW on BOB

18 tiles on baby BOB

~1350 total land tiles on a 100x100 map at 70% water.
904 total land tiles on BOB, baby BOB, and our continent.

Leaves 446 tiles for Lego? They will be rather large... but no larger than either of the civs on BOB if it comes down to 2.

We and Vox of course are left to fight over a continent that would lose out in the end (on it's own) however it plays out.